Uncontrolled ROW

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Does circuit direction (CAR 602.96) affect right of way at an uncontrolled airport?

Yes
3
18%
No
3
18%
Traffic in the circuit always has right of way
11
65%
 
Total votes: 17

Rowdy Burns
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Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Rowdy Burns »

Hi everyone,

Been reading through some topics on here with interest. Came across this in the "Radio Usage Plea" thread:

767 wrote:
schmoo wrote:I was a little confused as well, but at the risk of earning some well-deserved eye rolling, I will attempt a summary :

If two aircraft are both joining the circuit, the mid-downwind has the right of way over the "straight in" downwind. However, if an ac is already established in the circuit ( e.g.) doing touch and goes, etc. , then the ac joining the circuit mid-downwind does not have right of way.

However, as someone pointed out, it is highly possible that the guy joining mid-downwind does not know whether the ac that is already in the downwind is doing circuits or has just joined. So, in the absence of knowing, the mid-downwind ac just assumes he has the right of way.

Do I have it even remotely right ? :?
If you are in the circuit and have just took off, and you turn crosswind (typically at 500' AGL), you have right of way vs the guy coming for the straight in. Keep in mind that when your flying circuits, you want to turn crosswind at the point where you will place yourself 45 deg to the runway once you reach the downwind turning point.

If you are not in the circuit (when you are on the dead side, or upwind side), then you have to give right of way to the aircraft that is already "established" in the circuit (downwind)

All these procedures are reccomended. Im not sure if they are compulsury. Correct me if Im wrong, but some people say that you can basically do whatever you want at an uncontrolled airport. I have not read that anywhere. Regardless, I still follow the reccommended procedures.
IMHHO (honest & humble), right of way is strictly limited to the following:
Canadian Air Regulations wrote:(2) No person shall operate a balloon on a flight that is planned to enter Class C airspace while over a built-up area unless the clearance to enter that airspace that is required pursuant to section 601.08 has been obtained from the appropriate air traffic control unit prior to take-off.

Right of Way - General

602.19 (1) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section,

(a) the pilot-in-command of an aircraft that has the right of way shall, if there is any risk of collision, take such action as is necessary to avoid collision; and

(b) where the pilot-in-command of an aircraft is aware that another aircraft is in an emergency situation, the pilot-in-command shall give way to that other aircraft.

(2) When two aircraft are converging at approximately the same altitude, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft that has the other on its right shall give way [...]

(d) a power-driven aircraft shall give way to aircraft that are seen to be towing gliders or other objects or carrying a slung load.[...]

(4) Where an aircraft is required to give way to another aircraft, the pilot-in-command of the first-mentioned aircraft shall not pass over or under, or cross ahead of, the other aircraft unless passing or crossing at such a distance as will not create a risk of collision.

(5) Where two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so and there is a risk of collision, the pilot-in-command of each aircraft shall alter its heading to the right.

(6) An aircraft that is being overtaken has the right of way and the pilot-in-command of the overtaking aircraft, whether climbing, descending or in level flight, shall give way to the other aircraft by altering the heading of the overtaking aircraft to the right, and no subsequent change in the relative positions of the two aircraft shall absolve the pilot-in-command of the overtaking aircraft from this obligation until that aircraft has entirely passed and is clear of the other aircraft.

(7) Where an aircraft is in flight or manoeuvring on the surface, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall give way to an aircraft that is landing or about to land.

(8) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft that is approaching an aerodrome for the purpose of landing shall give way to any aircraft at a lower altitude that is also approaching the aerodrome for the purpose of landing.

(9) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft at a lower altitude, as described in subsection (8), shall not overtake or cut in front of an aircraft at a higher altitude that is in the final stages of an approach to land.


(10) No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path.
So first IFR has no necessary ROW over VFR. Second, traffic already established in a circuit pattern do not necessarily have ROW over those entering the circuit.

Say I am joining from the upwind side, aiming for mid left downwind but I am converging with another A/C already on DW. I would give way to them, as they are on my right (I see the red light).

Say I am joining from the upwind side, aiming for mid right downwind but I am converging with another aircraft already on DW. They should give way to me, as I am on their right (I see a green light).

As far as joining the downwind directly ("strait-in"). If I am aiming to join straight into a left hand downwind, and another aircraft was on crosswind, they should give way since I am on their right (unless you think 8 or 9 above trumps) if it was a right hand circuit, then I would give way since they are on my right.

Thoughts???
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Rowdy Burns
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Rowdy Burns »

This came up in the ASL a while back but I couldn't find it...
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767
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by 767 »

Hi Rowdy Burns,

I voted option 3. The reason for that is because I cant see how someone would be allowed to just come in front of an aircraft that is preparing to land. When established in the circuit, you are pretty much getting yourself set to land.

But now the confusing part is in the CAR's it states that "When two aircraft are converging at approximately the same altitude, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft that has the other on its right shall give way". Keeping this rule in mind, the question is how does it apply in the right hand circuit vs left hand? And for that, I dont have an answer.

So the best solution according to me would be to just stay out of the way of anyone that is landing, or someone who is preparing for it, for example, when they are in the circuit.

These days most aircraft are equipped with a radio, and pilots in these situations should take full advantage of it when neccessary, and not worry too much what some post on avcanada regarding the use of radio. The only part I agree to is keep the transmission minimum, up to the point. :)
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Colonel Sanders »

am joining from the upwind side, aiming for mid right downwind but I am converging with another aircraft already on DW. They should give way to me, as I am on their right
Got that.

However, there is also CAR 602.96(3)(b) which says:
602.96(3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall (b) conform to or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;
I see your point about you technically having right-of-way in your right traffic scenario, but are you also in compliance with CAR 602.96(3)(b) if you force traffic already established in the circuit to yield right of way?

If that is the case, are you really conforming to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft as required by CAR 602.96(3)(b)? Or, are you disrupting the pattern of traffic and contravening CAR 602.96(3)(b)?

Fortunately, unless you really p1ss someone off, no one cares.
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FenderManDan
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by FenderManDan »

ROW was explained to me this way. During the cruise portion of flight the converging traffic ROW rules apply. Keep in mind ballons and other flying-floating junk. Before joining the circuit you should fly owerhead the field 500 ft above the circuit height usually 1000 ft AGL. Examine the traffic situation, make a radio call and then when safe (that means no cutting off, overtaking the slower traffic and other monkeying) join the circuit at the proper entry points at the circuit height.

Simple, no cowboy sh!t and safe.
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Krimson
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Krimson »

I would say in this scenario the traffic already in the circuit would have the right of way. If you are coming in, you should adjust to the traffic established in the circuit.

Besides, I think it is poor airmanship to cut someone off in the circuit regardless of right of way (aside from gliders, balloons, space junk, etc)
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by HavaJava »

Here is a nice PDF from TC that sums it up. http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/en/tp1 ... 11541e.pdf

Basically you are only allowed to join a straight in downwind at an uncontrolled aerodrome "if no conflict exists". Traffic turning in front of you from crosswind to downwind would definitely be a conflict.

The ROW rules work nicely when you are joining mid-downwind on a standard left hand circuit...not so nice on a right hand circuit!
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767
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by 767 »

HavaJava wrote: straight in downwind
Describe what that means, because in the previous thread some posters said they never heard about "straight in downwind". I know what it means of course, but I don't feel like describing it. :)
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by FenderManDan »

straight in downwind?

Huh, seriously not bashing just confused with this new to me term. I don't venture out enough in uncontrolled airports is this a real official term?

In the controlled area you are cleared VFR to the circuit right or left downwind or cleared straight in.
I found that if flying above 6000 ft i need to reset my head and perception and even though I get cleared straight in,
I ask to change clearance do the left or right downwind to the circuit it help me do a better landing plus its PRTY to watch T.O skyline. :D

Did not have chance to hear "straight in downwind" term, is that used in the fields with only left or only right hand circuit?
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Rowdy Burns »

FenderManDan wrote:straight in downwind?
I think the term comes from joining "straight into downwind", as compared to the inevitable "kink" or turn required when joining from the upwind side. Think of the two ways to join a circuit at a non-mf area, one of them is straight and one is turned. I don't think it's a different type of downwind, if that's what you might be confused with. It is the same downwind, it's just joining it. So to say "joining a straight-in downwind" is actually saying "joining an early downwind"
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by 767 »

Straight- means straight. In, means in, or into.

Example: you are flying south. The airport is on your left. The runway you want to land on is rwy 36. The pattern is standard left hand. It is an uncontrolled airport. How will you join the circuit?

Answer: STRAIGHT IN (shortest route for "legal" entry into the circuit pattern , based on example provided)

Straight in where?

The downwind


:roll: :roll: :roll:
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Last edited by 767 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

As a current Class 1 ATPL my personal opinion is 767 is incorrect. Many things in aviation are not perfectly specified but there is an industry consensus on how things work that will be widely understood

The term "straight in"; in the context of the airport circuit is a good example. "Straight in" is pretty much universally used to indicate that you will be joining directly onto the final. That is you will not be making any turns just as the term implies, you will be flying straight in to a landing. If you are joining another part of the circuit you are joining "left/right base" or "left/ right downwind" or "midfield for the "left/right downwind".

You should simply say "downwind" and not "straight in downwind" for the same reason you would not say "downwind base" if you are joining the circuit at the point where the downwind to base turn is made, it is confusing and not required. Simply say what part of the circuit you are joining and life will be better for everyone then making up terms that are confusing and can be misunderstood.
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767
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by 767 »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: my personal opinion is 767 is incorrect.
Well Im still puzzled why you think so. I mean, I hear "straight in" all the time from other pilots. I mostly fly out of an uncontrolled airport and usually people enter straight in downwind, and I am sure 95% of the time I hear them announce "straight in downwind". I personally dont find it confusing, as long as the pilot specifies if they are downwind, base, final etc. :?
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Colonel Sanders »

"straight in downwind"
The first two words are gratuitous, and thus a waste of bandwidth.

One either joins downwind, or mid-downwind.

The former implies straight-in. The latter implies via overhead with
a 90 degree turn.

Fewer words is always better words.
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by HavaJava »

Holy crap folks...I can't believe that this much has changed since I did my initial training (I guess it's been a while though now). Back then, at least in Southern Ontario, "straight-in downwind" was a ubiquitous term. It meant that you were joining an extended downwind and were established before entering the circuit area.

I've got to admit I'm a little shocked that people would be confused if they heard someone say they were joining a "straight-in downwind" on the radio. :shock:
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767
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by 767 »

HavaJava wrote:

I've got to admit I'm a little shocked that people would be confused if they heard someone say they were joining a "straight-in downwind" on the radio. :shock:
Same here.
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Old Dog Flying »

As in most things these days, the English language is so "bastardized" that anyone with any sense at all has a hard time understanding what the hell you kids really mean.

The "straight-in-downwind" is BULL! After 60 years of flying of which nearly 40 years were instructing this phraseology is wrong. During my long career in aviation I also spent nearly 50 of those fun years in ATC and I can assure you 767 that you are wrong..maybe dead wrong some day with that attitude.

The Old Curmudgeon
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by HavaJava »

Wow...

Obviously because of your vintage we should just take your word for it. Doesn't matter if every instructor/student/PPL/bizjet pilot in southern Ontario in the '90's used or at the very least never questioned that phraseology.

I always liked the "straight-in" comment because it differentiated between joining mid-downwind or even on "the 45" which is more of an American technique.

And by the way, the "dead wrong" comment proved you're not just a curmudgeon, but also an all around wanker as well!
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Colonel Sanders »

HJ: if you listened to any of the
UNICOM freqs in Southern Ontario
On a sunny weekend, you might not
Be so quick to assert that we're doing
It right ...
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Old Dog Flying »

HJ: And I'm proud of it!!!!!! "Wanker" is a term that a Brit would use and I've known a quite a few of them...need I say more?

Barney
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Rowdy Burns »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
"straight in downwind"
One either joins downwind, or mid-downwind.

The former implies straight-in. The latter implies via overhead with
a 90 degree turn.
Right on. Of course one apply that logic to say"one either joins downwind, or straight-in downwind" where the former implies midfield and the latter implies the other option (without a 90 degree turn). I like your distinction since, as someone (credit here) else pointed out, it gets confused with the straight in final. Also, no one ever calls "straight-in base".
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Post by Beefitarian »

Old Dog Flying wrote:As in most things these days, the English language is so "bastardized" that anyone with any sense at all has a hard time understanding what the hell you kids really mean.

The Old Curmudgeon
Barney with thick skin
What do you mean Barney?
Yo, what up dog? I be flyin here and you best get yo busted ass out the way, fo I get all in the circuit wit y'll. Know what I'm sayin?
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Re: Uncontrolled ROW

Post by Old Dog Flying »

Beef: I'm not certain what if any, your point is, but CS was quite right a few posts back and no I don't expect people to get out of my way. I follow long standing procedures that have kept me safe for a very long time.

Many years ago I was briefing a student at a small prairie airfield about the use of check-lists when one of the local heroes started berating me for wasting the students time with BS check-lists.

Our hero walked out to his Aztec, fired it up and blasted into the sky. The door popped open and he spent the entire circuit trying to save his paperwork and sundry other junk from flying out the door. Naturely when he flaired for the landing the noise factor became quite intense when the props started chewing up the runway..no gear and no brains.

Bad attitudes make for bad decisions...and bad phraseology makes for confusion in the circuit.

And the hero in the above..well he took three of his friends with him to a very nasty ending..RIP
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Post by Beefitarian »

I agree with you and was kidding around about how the English language is evolving. There's places where it maybe should not in my opinion. Someone on here was giving me a hard time about using "niner" to avoid confusion.

The Colonel is a pretty big proponent of "less is more on the radio" I agree but I think it's important to make sure everyone knows where others are if near by and what their intentions are.

I suppose to a degree we all have to use whatever everyone else is to keep communications viable.

Sorry if it read like I was giving you a hard time with the ebonics.
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Re:

Post by Old Dog Flying »

[quote="Beefitarian"]

I suppose to a degree we all have to use whatever everyone else is to keep communications viable.

quote]

That is exactly why the use of "Standard" phraseology was established many years ago but unfortunately the great unwashed hoard of semi-literate newbies just don't understand that it is they who must conform to the standard.
no offence taken..thick skinned old fart

Barney
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