Looking for Advice - I want to Fly for a Living

[Jimmer_t]

Hello everyone. New here, first post, first day.
Right to the chase: I want to fly for a living. My problem is I'm not 100% sure on where to start, or even if it's a good move for me to embark on such a life changing journey at this point in my life. All I know is that all I want to do is fly, and have for a long time. I'm unhappy in the currnet job I'm in, which is actually in the aviation industry, however not really in a manner which allows me direct contact with experienced pilots whom I could approach for advice. I'm a pretty big aircraft/aviation nerd, and I think I could be very successfull as a professional pilot. I'm healty, fit, and relatively young(-ish). Here are my issues, and why I'm seeking advice and direction:
1) I'm a 32 year old husband and father of a 1 and 3 year old, and the sole breadwinner. Enough said.
2) I have zero flight experience.
3) Despite the fact that I could rearrange my assets and secure enough capital to either train or go to school, there would be significant financial challenges and risk in doing so.

So based on this, I'm looking for advice from the community, or some direction to where I can access resouces and information on what it would take for me to begin earning a living as a pilot. I have looked at the Ottawa flight College (I live just outside of Ottawa, close enough to commute to work downtown, and YOW when I work there/travel), and they have a professional pilot program that looks interesting, but am not really sure I want to rely solely on thier advice (which I have not sought yet).
I'd like to thank in advance, anyone who chooses to send some advice and direction my way. Despite the restraints I have listed above, I feel that this is the only carreer for me, and the only way I can truly be happy as a professional.
Best regards,
Jimmer

[Sulako]

First of all - this is a really tough industry. You may have what it takes, but you need to ask yourself if your entire family has what it takes, because that will come into play.

Also, I have a few questions:

1. Is your wife independent? Can she also win bread? Your first few jobs are going to suck, pay-wise. They may also suck, location-wise. There is zero chance that your pay for the first while (few years, maybe longer) will be able to support 4 people in a first-world lifestyle. Zero. Unless you have family money, your wife will need to be able to add income to the mix. Think about what that means.

2. After you go to whatever flight training institution you attend, you will need to get a first job. That alone is like winning a lottery, and your choices are fairly limited. Basically, you can either instruct, or go up north. If you instruct, you will spend a lot of time in the circuit, for poor pay. If you go up north, you will essentially live in a tent and risk your life for poor pay. The advantage of going up north is you *might* get multi-PIC faster. Depends. Oh, and it depends on stuff that may or may not be within your control, so there's that.

3. Can you stand out from the crowd? How? I am in charge of a pretty small (ie 3 aircraft) corporate flight department and I get an electronic pile of resumes every week. Last time I actually posted an ad, I got a few hundred responses for each position. We hired exactly 1 person, and are still in the process of hiring the next person (don't ask). I'm saying this because I want you to fully understand the gamble that aviation is - Of those 416 resumes for an FO position, about half of them were "I have never had a job, for the love of Jebus, help me out" stories. Are you willing to risk your kid's future on this? If there's any real risk involved (homelessness, poverty etc), don't do it - your kids deserve better.

4. My whole rant (and that's what this is) can be boiled down to "consider this as a gamble that may not pay off", ie please, please, please, don't bet money on this that you can't afford to lose. For some reason, flying in Canada is kinda like an acting career - for every successful person there are hundreds of people doing aviation porn, or worse - unemployable and heartbroken. That being said, the people who are successful are pretty freakin' happy - they made the sacrifices that are somehow necessary, and it paid off. But any sane analysis of this will consider the possibility - just in case - of this not working out, and that's what I beg you to do.

[Jimmer_t]

First off, thanks for the reply, and thank you for the honesty.

To answer your first two questions, yes my wife is capable of work, she just did not return after we had kids because she did not need to. We both understand what that means for our family, and that it's a must if I go ahead with this. I also have no allusions about how the first few years will be, with minimal pay and the high likelihood of having to move north and work for nuts.

To your additional points, I do believe that I can stand out in a crowd, that is, be noticed, excel and demonstrate through everything I will do, that I'm a capable and competent individual. It's how I have clawed my way up to where I am in my industry today. With that being said, I can also understand that it's not a plentiful job pool out there, and that chance may play more of a role than experience, skills and certifications.

I do appreciate your thoughts on the subject, as well as your plea to be realistic about the end result, or lack thereof. I could easily take that as total cynicism and look for the happy-go-lucky type to blow sunshine and roses up my back side, but that is why I thought I would start with real work people, like yourself.

So to get to the main point in my response, what I'm really wondering I guess, is if I choose to take a risk and have a go at this, what is the best path, and what can I do for myself in the early stages to increase the odds of employability? If you had it all do start over, what path would you take, and what would you do differently?

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to respond with your thoughts and feelings on this. In the end, I may choose to continue to pilot a cubicle until the pension comes in, but I can't go through the rest of my life without ever stopping to at least take a glance down the road.

Kind Regards,
Jimmer

[delay256]

I would suggest moving to Europe/Asia and go the MPL (Multi Crew Pilot Licensing) route, it would probably be the fastest way to fly for an airline and after you have built some decent experience and obtain a full ATPL you can apply to Canadian carriers. It can take up to 7-10 years in Canada to get into a major airline. If you are willing to put in the time and effort of working the ramp or flight instructing, flying up north, working your way up to slightly larger turbo props and eventually getting to the airlines then staying in Canada would be a viable choice. It takes a lot of hard work whatever route you choose. Good Luck to you!

[Jimmer_t]

Thanks for the tip. Though I'm not sure about moving to europe/asia with a young, english only family, that could be a potential option as my wife holds citizenship in Italy, and I could easliy obtain the same with a visit to the embassy. Would you know where I could find more information on the MPL?
Thanks much for the reply.
Jimmer

[Sulako]

I chose to go north - I worked dispatch for a while before I got a flying seat, but I still got multi-PIC faster than if I had stayed in the city and instructed.

One tip I do have is to network as much as you possibly can - lots of aviation jobs go to people who are recommended by other employees. Of the 4 real aviation jobs I have held, 3 of them were a result of having an employee walk my resume in and vouch for me.

[frog]

I went the instructor route, looking back I should have gone the ramp route (I was 34 when I started), but I didn't know any better and I was an immigrant freshly landed so I had no idea how the system worked.
I was well bellow the poverty line during the first few years so I will definitely recommend to have a financial solution for the first few years.
Other than that I would ad that if I did it anybody could do it !
Good luck !

[delay256]

I know the Oxford Aviation Academy , CAE and Flybe have teamed up to start an MPL course. Alpha Aviation Academy and easyjet in the UK also offer the program where you get an MPL License after you complete all the theoretical examinations and complete line training successfully.

More and more airlines are choosing to go this route. I wish you the best in whatever you decide. Staying in Canada has its perks, the training standards are very high, you get to fly in a variety of weather conditions and if you are lucky you get to work your way up to the bigger machines. The downside is that it takes time and effort to get that first break in Canadian aviation, too much over supply at the moment.

[Colonel Sanders]

in Canada ... the training standards are very high

Really?! I would have described flight training in Canada
and the USA as "middling", in that our pilot licences (and
ratings) are very much licences to learn.

I know that there are other places in the world where outright
fraud in pilot training is widespread, but I hope that never
becomes popular here.

[Beefitarian]

I may be way off but I don't think going to Europe and possibly Ryanair would be the way to go here even if you basically "won the lotto" to get a position there. It sounds to me a bit like joining the military without the push ups, marching, or free food and housing.

From what I hear there is not enough work for many of the 24 year old guys that have all their ratings and a commercial license allready. I suspect you want to give this a try regardless.

I feel that this is the only carreer for me, and the only way I can truly be happy as a professional.
Best regards,
Jimmer

Yeah me too. I'll post here if I find something.

I would start by finding a reasonable smallish flight training unit near you and see how it goes. Start at the beginning and try to get a private license. If they tell you it's very unlikely you will be able to become a commercial pilot. They are honest enough to train with.

If they even hint that they will get you a job or mention putting money on account or "a pilot shortage". RUN to your car and drive away as fast as you can!!

[Colonel Sanders]

Canadian aviation, too much over supply at the moment

What on earth are you talking about?! Take a look at the "job ads"
forum on this website - hiring for pilots has NOT been this good in
Canada for a very, very long time.

People are advertising for CO-PILOTS, for god's sake!

How old are you? Obviously you don't remember the Bad Old Days
when you needed 20,000 hrs to fly a Navajo in Canada.

[North Shore]

Save your money, lifestyle, marriage and happiness. Keep your current job, and go to your nearest soaring (gliding) club, and learn how to fly a glider.

The quickest way to turn something you like into a chore is to make it your job. Aviation at the bottom end is a huge (financial) gamble to get that first job, make enough money to pay the bills, and get the time and experience to move further up the ladder where you get to spend nights away from home, missing birthdays, anniversaries, ballet recitals and the like...

Move your glider experience into a PPL, and you'll get to fly at your own whims, where and when you like - unlike most commercial aviation, where you've always got someone telling you where, when how fast and how high to fly.

My $.02

[delay256]

I'm well aware that the industry is moving but it still takes at least 1500 hours for anyone to look at you seriously.

Ha! Joining the military without the push ups? Are you kidding me? The MPL candidates go through a rigorous selection process, they do 14 atpl theory exams and have to successfully complete the core flying phase and then to into an integrated procedures trainer and then a complete 25 sessions of full flight sim. After that they do 200 sectors of line training before being released as a first officer.

The programs are expensive but have proven to be successful, so much so that air Asia and transport Canada gave signed a memorandum of understanding to get the MPL training done here in Canada

All I'm saying is there are more options out there for a newbie especially of age is not on your side.

If you are going to choose the MPL route I would advise a class 1 medical and a few intro flights to see if this is what you want to do.

[cptn2016]

I am in a somewhat similar boat as you, switching careers. Approaching my 30's, married. No kids.
It's definitely not impossible but it's probably the hardest thing you'll ever do.

A few things I've learned so far:

-It's expensive, you know that, but whatever idea you have of what you think you'll spend worst case scenario, add 25% to that. Poop happens.
-Your family's sacrifice for you to do this will be bigger than your sacrifice. At least you get to chase your dream. They're going to have to be behind you the whole way, and it won't be nearly as fun for them. Talk to them often and warn them repeatedly that it's going to suck in a lot of ways for at least 5 years. Very likely more.
-Someone's already mentioned this, but think very hard about why you're doing this. Perhaps your love of flying could be wholly satisfied with a private license, flying how you want, when you want, for pleasure, period. Perhaps not, but it's something to figure out.
-Have a definite goal in mind as to the type of flying you'd like to do as a career. Dozens of different types, it's not all airlines. In fact most of it isn't. The reality is you're over 30, airlines might be tough to get into. If that is your dream, realize that the odds are long. Maybe impossible.
-You will not get rich. Salaries (adjusted for inflation) continue to go down for pilots, and I don't see any reason for that not to continue. During the golden age captains commanded money and respect (at least so I'm told....). Nowadays...a smattering of polite applause for a nice landing, if you're lucky. The external rewards for this line of work aren't getting any better. So if money is important to you and you absolutely want to fly, consider helicopters. I hear they're paid a tad better than fixed-wing guys.
-THERE IS NO IMMINENT PILOT SHORTAGE. There never was, and there never will be. There are forever more pilots than there are openings. If someone tells you this, ESPECIALLY a school, they're lying. You may also see this in magazines. But go to a library and check out the archives and grab a Flying magazine from the 70's, it'll say the same thing. We're all still waiting for that shortage. 'Cause then maybe we'll get paid a decent wage and we might actually get benefits, a pension....can you imagine?

That's all I've got. Good luck.

[DanWEC]

The training, unless done full time without working on the side, will take probably 2 years. Cost is about 50k.
Then comes the hard part, trying to find a first job.
If you go north and get a dispatch/ramp while waiting for line, you will all least be getting paid, likely about 1600 a month, and you and your family will have to move to a small town in northern Saskatewan or similar. Expect a year or two on the ground. Then, the entry FO pay is the same as dispatch usually.
I went the northern dispatch route, it was great work, but unfortunately I had to cut it short to come back for family.

If you go the float/bush route you will usually work for a camp for the summer on the dock, with the intention of being hired the next summer by the same operator after you have put in your dues.
Instructing allows you to stay in the city, but I have heard that your income for the first year or two could be 15k, and inconsistent, then you will have to look at likely moving somewhere else for your first FO or single pilot job.
Not trying to sound pessimistic, there are ways to get lucky, but I don't think anyone will disagree with me when I say the first few years are tough, and could very well be near impossible if supporting a family.

One way I have realized to get a huge leg up is to do as much of your CPL as possible on floats. Yes it's more expensive, but if you have 200 hrs on floats you may very well be able to skip the dock position and go right into a plane when the season opens up (you would be up north or on the west coast). I've encountered this first hand and wish I structured my training the same way instead of spending the money of a MIFR. You can do the MIFR in the winter after a few seasons of flying floats. That's my opinion anyhow, but there are far more experienced people on here who can lend their expertise.
Also, the military is a pretty good route if you have a uni degree already. You will immediately be making good money. I still mull it over every day as I'm finding myself below the poverty line suddenly.

Good luck, if you really want to do it then you'll have to ignore the constant head shaking moments that a lot of people seem to get after a few years as the question why they did it!
At the end of the day, you will be handed a pay cheque for flying a plane, it doesn't get better than that, but there are sacrifices to be made unfortunately.

Cheers!

Dan
34 years old. Started cpl at 30. This is my first year working professionally in the industry.

[Big Pistons Forever]

1) I'm a 32 year old husband and father of a 1 and 3 year old, and the sole breadwinner. Enough said.
2) I have zero flight experience.
3) Despite the fact that I could rearrange my assets and secure enough capital to either train or go to school, there would be significant financial challenges and risk in doing so.

Jimmer

You have already made some life choices that make it much more difficult to start a flying career. The industry is set up to take advantage of young people with no commitments who can move at the drop of a hat and sleep in their car while living on KD. The only married with children guys who started in this industry that I know of, had a wife with a good job and so they could get through the tough first years on her salary in order to maintain a decent life style.

If you absolutely positively want to roll the dice then there are IMO a couple of non negotiable prerequisites.

1) You need to have a heart to heart with the wife and she has to understand and agree to take the lifestyle hit over the next 5 to even 10 years it is going to take to make decent money as a pilot.

2) You have to pay as you go through your training and you should budget 60 K. Trying to get the first job with both family responsibilities and a big loan is IMO totally irresponsible

3) You need to have the financial resources to live on 15 K a year for the first 2 years. This represents IMO the average income for a new pilot. Some will do better but most won't. The reality is your wife is going to have to go back to work.

I rolled the dice at age 27, gave up well paid work and made the move into flying and it worked out great for me, but you need to go into this fully educated on the realities of the industry and you need to have a plan, including a plan B and C if it doesn't work.

[Deltawidget]

Jimmer,

it is highly rare that you get this far in an avcanada post with pretty much everyone holding the same sentiment.

My 2 cents: If you really want to fly, find 3 other (or more) individuals who want to split a piston single with you (Cherokee 140's are cheap these days). For $6,000 each (upfront capital cost) and another $3000 per year to fly (based on 26 hours or so - every other week, which is about the average for PPLs) you can fly when you want, where you want on nice sunny days. You can reduce your costs even more if you get friends you want to take up who will chip in a few bucks for fuel... A lot of people don't realize that you can operate a piston single in fractional ownerships for about the same amount as people pay to play golf each year.

If you want to go even cheaper and you live near a grass strip check out a Luscombe or Cessna 140....

[POPANDCHIPS]

.

[crazycanuck]

The best way to ruin something you love is to do it for a living. My dad taught me this because he loved building houses until he started his own construction company and then he hated it. I thought about leaving my career to become a commercial pilot, but the math just doesn't work very well if you are already in mid life. I think the best way to fly is to just get a job that makes good money and then fly as a hobby. When private pilots talk about aviation they are usually smiling. When commercial pilots talk about aviation they seem to often be speaking out of frustration.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Jimmer,

it is highly rare that you get this far in an avcanada post with pretty much everyone holding the same sentiment.

My 2 cents: If you really want to fly, find 3 other (or more) individuals who want to split a piston single with you (Cherokee 140's are cheap these days). For $6,000 each (upfront capital cost) and another $3000 per year to fly (based on 26 hours or so - every other week, which is about the average for PPLs) you can fly when you want, where you want on nice sunny days. You can reduce your costs even more if you get friends you want to take up who will chip in a few bucks for fuel... A lot of people don't realize that you can operate a piston single in fractional ownerships for about the same amount as people pay to play golf each year.

If you want to go even cheaper and you live near a grass strip check out a Luscombe or Cessna 140....

While the above scenario is possible it is by no means a sure thing. A very good example of he downside of this strategy happened to a guy I know. He was a new wannabe CPL who had just finished his PPL and decided to try the "buy an old C 150 fly the heck out of it to get your CPL and then sell it". He bought an on condition C 150 for 16 K flew it for about 50 hours, but then the engine started making funny noises. The oil screen was full of metal and the engine was toast. His mechanic found another high time engine and installed it for about 10 K (which is actually a very good deal). When he was done he tried to sell it for 20 K and got no takers. A year later desperate for the cash he sold it for 12 K. His hundred hours cost him over $250 an hour, not including what he paid for his instructor . Another owner I know brought his newly acquired Pa 28 to a local shop for its first annual inspection. he had to write a cheque for $12,000 to pay for it.

[Beefitarian]

Actually it's pretty easy to become a commecial pilot. Win a big lottery like say $40 000 000. Buy your wife a nice new car (not too fancy.) and a house (under 2500 square foot). Get a CPL MIFR. Buy a small flying operation. Hire yourself. WALLA!

[Deltawidget]

Jimmer,

it is highly rare that you get this far in an avcanada post with pretty much everyone holding the same sentiment.

My 2 cents: If you really want to fly, find 3 other (or more) individuals who want to split a piston single with you (Cherokee 140's are cheap these days). For $6,000 each (upfront capital cost) and another $3000 per year to fly (based on 26 hours or so - every other week, which is about the average for PPLs) you can fly when you want, where you want on nice sunny days. You can reduce your costs even more if you get friends you want to take up who will chip in a few bucks for fuel... A lot of people don't realize that you can operate a piston single in fractional ownerships for about the same amount as people pay to play golf each year.

If you want to go even cheaper and you live near a grass strip check out a Luscombe or Cessna 140....

Yes, you can most definetly get blown out of he water buying an aircraft if not careful, however if you

a.) have a thorough pre-purchase
b.) have multiple people to split bills
c.) most importantly, plan to fly it at least 1000 hours

you should come out ahead.. Even with an unexpected $20,000 in repairs, amoritized over 1000 hours is only $20/hr...

Also, don't be afraid to walk away after a pre-purchase. It may "cost" you $1500 to do, but may have saved you 10's of thousands of dollars


While the above scenario is possible it is by no means a sure thing. A very good example of he downside of this strategy happened to a guy I know. He was a new wannabe CPL who had just finished his PPL and decided to try the "buy an old C 150 fly the heck out of it to get your CPL and then sell it". He bought an on condition C 150 for 16 K flew it for about 50 hours, but then the engine started making funny noises. The oil screen was full of metal and the engine was toast. His mechanic found another high time engine and installed it for about 10 K (which is actually a very good deal). When he was done he tried to sell it for 20 K and got no takers. A year later desperate for the cash he sold it for 12 K. His hundred hours cost him over $250 an hour, not including what he paid for his instructor . Another owner I know brought his newly acquired Pa 28 to a local shop for its first annual inspection. he had to write a cheque for $12,000 to pay for it.

[Jimmer_t]

Well, everyone seems to paint a fairly similar picture here. I have been reading this with my wife and she has not filed for divorce yet, so that is a positive thing. That being said I am glad to be getting honest opinions from all of you, I really appreciate all of you taking the time to provide my with your insight and knowlege of the industry. Additionally, all of your stories of how you got to where you are now are providing me with a more complete picture of how this profession works.

One thing I'm wondering is if it may be a better move to just start down the road with my PPL and start building hours. Do any of you feel that this would be a good springboard to embark upon into the next phase of training? As opposed to just jumping in with both feet and taking the risk, expending a much smaller amount of capital while working the 9-5 in the mean time seems like a better choice off the bat. Plus I would likely gain more insight into the industry. Does this sound logical?

Again, thanks to all of you for taking the time to type out your thoughs and experiences. Greatly appreciated.
regards,
jimmer

[Jimmer_t]

Actually it's pretty easy to become a commecial pilot. Win a big lottery like say $40 000 000. Buy your wife a nice new car (not too fancy.) and a house (under 2500 square foot). Get a CPL MIFR. Buy a small flying operation. Hire yourself. WALLA!

CRAP, why did I not think of that sooner!

Anyone have $40,000,000 i could borrow for a little bit. I would totally pay you back.

[Bede]

Funny you should want $40M. I am the son of the late Nigerian prince Wallid. I need to transfer some money out of the country and would be willing to pay you $40M. I do need your account information to set up the transfer.

Great job doing your homework. If you can actually make it in this industry there is no better job. Even Jazz is an excellent job. even turboprop jobs will pay you twice the median wage in this country.

Like everyone said the first job is the hardest. If you're thinking about going up north why not move there for your training to see how the family likes it. If your wife is a professional she can make good money. You can network for a realistic first job while you train.