Dress appropriately.

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore

User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Dress appropriately.

Post by Shiny Side Up » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:10 pm

Or in other words, its Canada, its winter, don't be an idiot.

Speaking of, does anyone know of where one could aquire some good videos on frostbite and hypothermia? Preferably graphic ones.

Why do I have to have this conversation multiple times per winter?

Next idea: Does anyone have any ideas where one could aquire a "dunce toque" and some adult sized stringed mittens to issue out?
---------- ADS -----------
  

dr.aero
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 272
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:08 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by dr.aero » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:43 pm

By all means, educate them once on this topic and after that... let them freeze!

If they can't figure it out after that, let Darwin take over.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by Shiny Side Up » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:50 pm

No, seriously, does anyone know where to aquire one of those first aid/ survivial type videos about frostbite and hypothermia? I think its going to become part of "human factors" in ground school.
---------- ADS -----------
  

old_man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:58 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by old_man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:31 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:No, seriously, does anyone know where to aquire one of those first aid/ survivial type videos about frostbite and hypothermia? I think its going to become part of "human factors" in ground school.
Simpler method. Just walk out to the airplane with the victim..errr....student. Have them strap in (usually they take off their coat). Then say 'change of plans' or scream 'ahhhh, OMG we just crashed and are on fire...get out get out!' and flap your arms like a chicken or something (please take a vid if you do this). Then take them to some woods or something (maybe just the infield) and say 'see ya in a couple of hours, try to start a fire or something' and leave. That usually does the trick albeit cruel.

Some of the last few accidents in the north have shown there was barely enough time get out, let alone try to get to the survival pack and stowed said coat. Winter clothing, small knife/multi tool, and a lighter. Everything else is gravy. In some cases you only get to leave with what you have on you.

I think some of my helicopter buddies actually take full on winter survival courses. Probably better that the powerpoint that you were looking for that I can't provide. Sorry if I wasn't much help to you there. Just my $0.02 which, I might add, you got for free
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by old_man on Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

avian44
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:03 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by avian44 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:28 pm

Even simpler method, actually employed at an uncontrolled airport:

CPL candidate is "casually dressed" at -20C. He and the unimpressed instructor taxi to takeoff position 3300 feet from the FTU. Instructor says "I think we picked up some ice in the elevator trim tab hinge, scoot round the back and check it will you?". CPL candidate exits and peers at the tab, and instructor taxis back to FTU. Long walk for the candidate. Apart from INTENSITY, what other learning factors were present?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18919
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:40 pm

The factor of stupidity?
---------- ADS -----------
  

mmartin1872
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by mmartin1872 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Not to sound like an ass, but if any 'instructor' did that to me, they wouldn't be my instructor any longer. But then, I would dress appropriately, because i know, 20 minutes away from where our airport is, is vast wilderness, that people disappear and die in.

You tell the CPL/PPL/customer, to dress appropriately. If they aren't dressed appropriately and it is 'required', you cancel the flight.

a couple of cancelled flights on good flying days, will do just as good, as 'making an example of the student'.

It's not your job, to be an ass, in the process of training, all that being an ass will do is make you into the 'd**k' that gets talked about on the local airport during beers with the other pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18919
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:51 pm

If any instructor that worked for me was that stupid I would fire them on the spot.

The learning factor of intensity.......no wonder the industry is so screwed up.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
5x5
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1451
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by 5x5 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:58 pm

Well, cancelling the lesson will mostly hurt the instructor because there's no billing for the flight then.

Another option is for you as an instructor, dressed appropriately, go out and join the under-dressed student for an extended walk-around. Go through every piece and part, it's function, the things that would indicate it's failure in flight, the pilot's best response to the failure situation. Extend the discussions on each item as much as is necessary.

That way the instructor gets paid for the ground briefing, the student gets quizzed and informed (if need be) on the workings of the aircraft systems, the student gets first hand experience of how quickly and how much you get cold when under-dressed even though you are walking/moving around. They don't get to go flying and realize that you are serious and they should be about adequate clothing for the weather - and you get to go through a very thorough systems review with them. Everybody wins.
---------- ADS -----------
  

old_man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:58 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by old_man » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:28 am

Cat Driver wrote:If any instructor that worked for me was that stupid I would fire them on the spot.

The learning factor of intensity.......no wonder the industry is so screwed up.
Relax, my answer was somewhat tongue and cheek. Worry not, I am not an instructor. However, I think there is some validity in just having the student stand in the wind in his flying clothing and simply asking him how long he thinks he could survive dressed like that. Throwing him in the woods was a bit of a joke.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Lurch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2031
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by Lurch » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:35 am

I've had this argument more then a few times. I have always maintained that you must dress well enough to spend the night outside, so even in the summer I don't agree with shorts and short sleeve shirts while flying.

I see instructors show up all the time not dressed for the weather so how do you expect their students to do the same?

I just ask them how they're going to feel after walking 1/2 a mile through a snow covered farmers field to get to the farm house? If they think they'll be fine I tell them to walk around the airport along the side of the road, this usually gets the message across.

Lurch
---------- ADS -----------
  

seasonaldriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:07 am

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by seasonaldriver » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:59 am

I agree 102% with lurch! ALWAYS dress as if you're going to spend the night outside. Throw a lighter in a pocket somewhere and know how to light a fire(it's surprising how many people don't). And if you always have your multitool thingie hanging from your belt, so much the better. I can't count the number of times that thing has come in handy! BTW spend the extra few dollars and get a name brand like Leatherman or Gerber when you buy that multitool. The cheap ones fall apart way too fast.
---------- ADS -----------
  

oldsault7
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by oldsault7 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:23 pm

seasonaldriver wrote:I agree 102% with lurch! ALWAYS dress as if you're going to spend the night outside..
Nice to see some logical sense. Don't expect it from the rest of the aviation world.

I remember flying up north and having a variety of co-pilots usually from Vancouver, often with the barest of hours, and a propensity to wear
white shirts showing gold braid in the cockpit and when we landed at places on James Bay, they would go to the rear
of the plane and put on their coat hat and mitts before opening the door and realizing that it wasn't Vancouver weather.
,
The passengers, a lot smarter, stayed fully dressed, as I tried to do.
If you had a co-pilot who had actually worked in cold conditions previously
it was common sense, and it was normal to leave the cockpit temperature on the low side,
to stay acclimatized. It was terrible going from
+20 to -40 all the time.

But, those Vancouver co-pilots just
cranked up the heat forcing me to take off my extra layers. It was always in the back of my mind that
if something caused us to end up in the white stuff even close to the airport, we would be dead in a very
short period of time not being properly dressed.

There was "it can't happen to me" attitude, and anyone who thought of appropriate attire for the cockpit
from a survival perspective, was crazy.

Even today, if I take a commercial flight, I'm in the habit of looking at my carry on bag and checking
for improvised survival equipment. Food, juice, flashlight, clothes toilet paper etc just in case the plane
gets stuck on a ramp somewhere for 12 hours.
---------- ADS -----------
  

rob-air
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:36 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by rob-air » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:42 pm

Oh to get my point across, usualy tie my non-winterized student to a post and trow a cold bucket of water on him, I then instruct all other pilots to do their run-ups in front of him to recreate blizzard conditions. On the next lesson, they usualy sow up wearing a survival suit or they dont show up at all.

Canadians should dress like canadians, longjohns, boots, hat and gloves are a must.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
mcrit
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1975
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:01 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by mcrit » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:03 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:Speaking of, does anyone know of where one could aquire some good videos on frostbite and hypothermia? Preferably graphic ones.
Contact your local community college and try to speak to one of the EMT/paramedic instructors. If memory serves their text books have the sort of pictures you are looking for.

Or, google it.

(Should be needless to say, but don't check out these links near meal time)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ejAk42p7jdY/S ... tbite2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Jv9vDk8t8
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Panama Jack
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3211
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:10 am
Location: The Sandbox

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by Panama Jack » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:45 am

Do that with me and you will likely get the response "screw this, I'll see you in June to resume my training when it is warmer."

As an aside, I remember going to university in Northern Arizona. Every day, the Hawaiian students went to class looking like they were heading for the beach. By Late-November it started looking interesting, from shivering for a few days, to a mix of flip-flops and sweaters, to when they finally got a new wardrobe.

I am the kind of guy who could never dress warm enough to spend a night in the bush in the dead of winter. I pondered this when I did runs up to Wabush and Goose Bay for a regional airline in the winter. There we are, with our double-breasted mainline uniform jackets and a Kanuk parka. How would this pan out if we had to spend any amount of tome on the ground where it is -40 celcius outside?

It is not unlike those immersion suits for those who cross the North Atlantic. Some environments, you go down, you are as good as dead; you can't realistically dress warm enough. If that is unpalatable, maybe we shouldn't be flying in those environments, or at least not in aircraft which cannot maintain flight after a failure of the most critical engine.
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7186
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by photofly » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:46 am

It is not unlike those immersion suits for those who cross the North Atlantic. Some environments, you go down, you are as good as dead;
Are you saying there's no point in wearing one?
---------- ADS -----------
  

kevind
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:09 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by kevind » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:05 pm

An old RCAF friend of mine told me how the air force handled pilots not wearing proper equipment was solved

After a CF-100 flight, the pilot and nav were taken from the plane, put in a helicopter with the contents of the ejection seat and dropped in the woods for a night.

Have fun boys.....
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Panama Jack
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3211
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:10 am
Location: The Sandbox

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by Panama Jack » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:55 pm

photofly wrote:
It is not unlike those immersion suits for those who cross the North Atlantic. Some environments, you go down, you are as good as dead;
Are you saying there's no point in wearing one?
You mean besides regulatory requirements and providing a false sense of security? You tell me. Yes, I do know that you get a little more time than wearing jeans and a turtleneck.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by Shiny Side Up » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:52 pm

mcrit wrote:
Contact your local community college and try to speak to one of the EMT/paramedic instructors. If memory serves their text books have the sort of pictures you are looking for.
There was one I remember seeing when I took some advanced first aid course a while back, trying to find something that's official training stuff to purchase.
Panama Jack wrote:
I am the kind of guy who could never dress warm enough to spend a night in the bush in the dead of winter.
Well in truth you realistically can't for most practical purposes. Having spent nights in the bush when its below zero, I can't imagine doing it with only whatever I'm wearing, and I dress heavier than most in winter. That said many days its a lot easier to get frostbite or hypothermia than a lot of people think. I ain't one to cancel students if they show up unprepared, unless it is grossly so, and after a disapproving frown, have extra gloves and toques to issue out. Its irritating though when I have to make the point and end up in an argument whether its possible or necessary. Having had in the past to administer first aid to some who had gotten minor levels of frostbite, I'd rather people get the point than to practice my skills.
---------- ADS -----------
  

visavi
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:09 pm

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by visavi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:05 am

How is Canada in Summer , any warm places in the country ?
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7186
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by photofly » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:09 am

You mean besides regulatory requirements and providing a false sense of security? You tell me.
I have no real idea. Just curious if you're basing your opinion on anything solid.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerie
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Horseshoe Bay

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by aerie » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:22 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:Speaking of, does anyone know of where one could aquire some good videos on frostbite and hypothermia? Preferably graphic ones.
Frostbite Prevention - Take 5 For Safety
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8WiRGtWdZA

Working Safely In Cold Weather
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjoVkJiE47M

Preventing Hypothermia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaptoIl7j38

Snow Safety - Hypothermia Training
http://basic.profirstaid.com/en/trainin ... thermia%20

Try
---------- ADS -----------
  

boogs82
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:55 am
Contact:

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by boogs82 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:26 pm

visavi wrote:How is Canada in Summer , any warm places in the country ?
Snow all year round. Worse than the North Pole. Doesn't warm up at all..... :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7513
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Dress appropriately.

Post by Colonel Sanders » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:29 pm

too funny. Igloos in the summer everywhere.
How is Canada in Summer , any warm places in the country ?
But seriously folks, the way it works is that if you are
near a large body of water (eg Atlantic or Pacific Ocean,
on the east or west coast) then the temperature will be
moderated - it will not get too cold in the winter, and
it will not get too hot in the summer.

If you are located far away from a large body of water,
the temperature will swing wildly. During the winter it
will be painfully cold, and during the summer it will be
painfully hot. This is true, almost regardless of latitude
in the central part of north america.

The Great Lakes will moderate the climate a little bit.
For example, Toronto has milder winters than Ottawa
because of it's proximity to Lake Ontario, and also possibly
due to the extra man-made heat of a largish city.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”