Checklist

[Colonel Sanders]

FTU's love long checklists for really simple airplanes.
The longer, the better, because the longer it is, the
safer it must be, right?

Well, here's some food for thought. The B-17 bomber
back in 1944 had a crew of 10. Four engines. 65,000
lb takeoff weight. You probably think it had a checklist
five inches thick. Here it is:



Fits on one page, in case you didn't notice.

It's official. Today, we require a checklist to fly a single
engine, fixed pitch, fixed gear aircraft which dwarfs the
simple checklist to fly a four-engine bomber.

I think congratulations are in order, to all the FTU's out
there, for this incredible achievement.

[Beefitarian]

Check!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Best I ever saw was Kawartha Flight Centres checklist for their Seneca. The normal checklist had 147 items from prestart to shutdown .

I didn't think that was possible but if you do things like check the alternate static source a total of three times it is possible to really run up the tally

However the best "check" was on the line up check....it called for among 9 other things "Toe Brakes...Release". I guess that would would be for those individuals that were puzzled when they added takeoff power, but the aircraft failed to move

In a moment of extreme weakness I recently volunteered to finish a PPL on a C 150. The first thing I did was throw out his FTU generated checklist and told him to use mine which is about 1/3 the length. For example the prelanding check went from 9 items to 3.

[FenderManDan]

I have one from TAL P-28 (YKZ) circa 2009-2010 as a souvenir. I don't know if anything changed, but much longer than B-17 one.
I think they are OK for the abinitio for first 5 flights or for the recreational students that train once per month.

It is all about the flow baby and then use the short checklist to make sure you have it covered. If you fly often minimum short
list is sufficient.

I have developed a long procedural DO list for the new to the plane or infrequent fliers and highlighted 10 or so items to check for the frequent fliers everything else is visually skipped on my C172 checklist.

[Nwtflier]

"Toe Brakes...Release"

I always forget that one, thanks for the heads up!

[willow burner]

Dont forget Throttle-IN and Controls-PULL BACK

[willow burner]

And at the end of the after landings, credit card-SWIPE

[photofly]

However the best "check" was on the line up check....it called for among 9 other things "Toe Brakes...Release". I guess that would would be for those individuals that were puzzled when they added takeoff power, but the aircraft failed to move

I've now seen that happen.

I think there should be a list for the first few flights, and then an abbreviated list thereafter.

Some people do need to be reminded to make sure they're not holding the brakes at takeoff. people here have the luxury of flying an airplane as a normal everyday activity. The whole thing is a bit more arcane and mysterious for new starters.

[Colonel Sanders]

Despite popular images of B-17 pilots being grizzled
old guys with 50,000 hours logged, they were almost
all young kids with ridiculously little experience.

The full syllabus was 200 hours in little airplanes then
125 hours in the B-17 then off you went across the
Atlantic. Incomprehensible today.

[photofly]

I wonder what the type-specific ground school and checklists were like for those little planes in the first 200 hours.

Maybe we're substituting long checklists for systems knowledge.

Wasn't there a war on, too?

[PilotDAR]

You probably think it had a checklist
five inches thick.

Yeah, but how long is "Form 1A"?

Maybe we're substituting long checklists for systems knowledge.

Definitely. It was explained to me by a mentor, when I was doing some initial flying in the DC-3, that the surprisingly brief checklists for pilots, and maintenance instructions were common because the aircraft manufacturer knew that the operators of these aircraft were either the military, or airlines. They trained with great depth and consistency. With very well trained crews, the checklists were much less important. The light aircraft of the era were so simple, that you could make the checklist only a few items, and it was fine - because most pilots came from a military or airline background.

Then, more and more, pilots came up through the private training system. Their training took them to the point of meeting a minimum standard, so the plane had to do a lot more for itself to inform the pilot how not to forget things like releasing brakes if you wanted to go. Hence the long checklist began. Then the FTU's needed to do something to fill their time on rainy days, and convince TC that they were proactive on safety, so they found lot's more things to insert into a checklist - and here we are....

The pilot who gave me type training on the Caravan told me to take my time, and use the checklist to start and pretakeoff, so I did not overtemp something expensive, and there after, in flight, checking the things passed by my right hand in a sweeping motion from over my head forward to by my ankle was all that was needed for flying the Caravan safely in VFR flight. Sometimes I used the checklist just to remind myself how simple that Caravan is to fly....

As for the 150, after 2800 hours flying mine, I used it for my commercial flight test. The instructor reminded me that I had better make ans use a checklist for it, to pass my flight test. I did, and used it twice - once for the pretest, once for the test.....

[Colonel Sanders]

The instructor reminded me that I had better make and use a checklist for it, to pass my flight test

In order to satisfy the TC fetish for "do-lists", to people
in your situation (aircraft owners) I tell them to make up
a very simple checklist which contains exactly the items
you are going to check anyways from memory, with
your cockpit flow.

Put the checklist on your knee and make a show of glancing
at it every now and then, and you will pass.

The examiner may grumble at you that your one-page
checklist isn't long enough, but you will pass.

They trained with great depth and consistency

That doesn't sound very egalitarian. Someone's feelings
could have gotten hurt if they didn't do well at the ground
school, and we all know how serious it is when someone's
feelings get hurt. Worse than crashing.

[Colonel Sanders]

I wonder what the type-specific ground school and checklists were like for those little planes in the first 200 hours

Official Guide to the Army Air Forces :

Preflight School -- 10 weeks:
18 hours, maps and charts
48 hours, code
30 hours, sea and air recognition
24 hours, physics
20 hours, math
Daily physical and military training

Primary Flying School -- 10 weeks
94 hours, ground school
70 hours, 125 to 225hp biplane or low-wing monoplane flight training
54 hours, military training

Basic Flying School -- 10 weeks
94 hours, ground school
70 hours, 450hp basic trainer flight time
47 hours, military training

Advanced Flight school -- 10 weeks
60 hours, ground school
19 hours, military training
70 hours, flight Single engine AT-6 or Twin Engine AT-24, AT-17, AT-9, AT-10
Course of Fixed Gunnery

Then on to B-17's.

[photofly]

The examiner's guide says the examiner isn't allowed to penalize the candidate for the content of the check list, as long as they use one, and if the examiner has concerns over the content he or she should take it up with the operator or FTU.

I'm surprised CS doesn't take advantage of that to invent a more colourful and humorous checklist, just for flight tests!

[dirtysidedown]

C.S. can i go flying with you sometime? You crack me up!

[Colonel Sanders]

Sure, as long as you don't mind doing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US9je8STwjo


or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtaFzFkohPU


I get really bored in airplanes, a lot of the time.
It's gotten me into terrible trouble, sometimes,
but it's been a good life.

PS Here's a sure cure for your stubborn insomnia tonight:

http://www.pittspecials.com/articles.html

I wrote most of it during my various bannings from here
over the years.

[Big Pistons Forever]

However the best "check" was on the line up check....it called for among 9 other things "Toe Brakes...Release". I guess that would would be for those individuals that were puzzled when they added takeoff power, but the aircraft failed to move

I've now seen that happen.

I think there should be a list for the first few flights, and then an abbreviated list thereafter.

Some people do need to be reminded to make sure they're not holding the brakes at takeoff. people here have the luxury of flying an airplane as a normal everyday activity. The whole thing is a bit more arcane and mysterious for new starters.

"New starters" are not flying Seneca's. They will have at least a PPL and some build up time before seeing a light twin.

If you think it is acceptable that a light twin pilot needs a "do list" checklist to let go of the brakes before starting the takeoff roll then all I can say is we have grossly different standards about what consititutes the minmium standard for student performance......

[Big Pistons Forever]

IMO the biggest problem with FTU checklist is that they are being used as a training tool instead of their correct purpose which is as a flight safety tool. IMO the test for what goes on a checklist is pretty simple. If forgetting/mis-using the item will result in a degradation of flight safety for that phase of flight then it should be on the check if not then it doesn't belong on the check. In a fixed gear SEP there is not very many things which will cause an immediate degradation in flight safety, if forgotten. Concentrating on those items emphasizes their importance and will IMO ultimately make for safer flight operations, over trying to cover every possible thing on a huge long list.

Everything else should be dealt with as a SOP. In the Flight training environment that means the how to do something is explicitly covered. So in the context of my brakes example above, for a pre solo student "heels on the floor" then throttle in, is what get taught as a SOP.

BTW, at the risk of commiting FTU heresy,

- MAGs don't magically switch themselves off in flight,

- You might actually have some other indications that the airplane had absolutely no electrcal power before you checked that the master was on as part of your prelanding check

-if the primer was locked when you did your preflight, it is still going to be locked when you are ready to land,

-There has never been a recorded case where a Cessna C 172 suddenly and spontaneously stopped feeding from one tank, so that FTUism of selecting left and right tanks on the taxi is pointless. (Note fuel flow should be checked as a post maintenance check if the fuel system has just been disrupted. In this case the airplane should be run for a minimum of 5 minutes on each tank at to ensure fuel flow)

-That little recessed between the seats fuel valve in a C 150 that is almost impossible to reach....well I am guessing that you might actually already know if it somehow magicaly got turned off before you got to your prelanding checklist

[iflyforpie]

I fly my light twin without referencing the checklist at all. When TC comes to do a PPC (yes, they still do ours) I simply pull the checklist out to confirm I haven't missed anything. They don't have a problem with it, I don't have a problem with it.. and the checklist fits on a cocktail napkin with 12 pt single spaced type.

I do remember getting dirty looks when I was getting checked out on a twin with Saturn V pre-launch checklist when I did things (gasp) out of order! Things like getting the ATIS, setting up the radios, testing and setting the nav instruments, briefing the departure... BEFORE I started the engines!

Hey look pal.... I'm here to renew my rating... not get you to your next licence and pay for an extra case of KD.

[Big Pistons Forever]

deleted finger trouble