Instructors: Stop Helping

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7513
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Colonel Sanders » Thu May 22, 2014 1:00 am

I swear, this guy can read my mind:

http://www.rapp.org/archives/2014/05/le ... nstructor/
I feel a major part of being an instructor is simply keeping the student from hurting themselves or the airplane while they learn how to fly

I had a Pitts transition student with whom I flew in the S-2C for a half dozen hours before learning that not only did he lack a pilot certificate, but he actually taught himself to fly in a Cardinal that his family owned when he lived in the Midwest as a kid.

The most surprising aspect? His self-education was so solid that nothing seemed out of place or abnormal about his skills or knowledge when we jumped into the Pitts. As anyone who’s flown one will tell you, the Pitts is an extremely demanding aircraft, even by tailwheel standards
Two words: Barefoot Bandit

In these days of entitlement and spoon-feeding,
what a breath of fresh air.

Thinking about it, I taught myself:

- my group 3 instrument rating. Got a local corporate pilot to sign me off.
- aerobatics
- formation
- formation aerobatics
- negative G formation aerobatics
- low altitude aerobatics
- low altitude formation aerobatics

Plus I've checked myself out in many, many
different types of aircraft because although
there are plenty of guys with brown leather
jackets and RayBans that like to talk, very
few people in aviation are actually up for the
moment. Try finding someone to teach you
negative G formation aerobatics, for example.

Try teaching yourself instead. And no, there
is no app for that.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Shiny Side Up » Thu May 22, 2014 2:33 am

It might be said that there's no such thing as teaching, you only help someone learn.
---------- ADS -----------
  
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!

User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7513
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Colonel Sanders » Thu May 22, 2014 11:03 am

Learning occurs regardless of whether or not
teaching is taking place. And plenty of teaching
can be occurring with no learning whatsoever.

Once that light bulb goes on, you realize that
the most important thing that a flight instructor
does, is stop the student from hurting himself
or the airplane, while he is teaching himself to
fly.

This is not as insane an idea as it first appears.

After all, before the flight we are required to
PGI a student (death by briefing) so that he
knows exactly WHAT he is doing to do, and
HOW he is going to do it.

And, a cockpit has got to be one of the worst
classrooms there is (as TK will point out, yes,
that's the case when you are instructing :-)

Also, we are not supposed to talk to a student
when he is flying. We all do it, but it's a no-no.

In the air, all you can do is demonstrate the
maneuver - hopefully with a reasonable amount
of precision and smoothness - and talk while
you are doing the demo, explaining what you
are doing, and where you are looking.

Then, the student does the maneuver, and you
point out the most serious error he did, and tell
him how to fix it next time, and have him try
again.

Rinse, lather, repeat. Not rocket science. But
all you're really doing is helping him teach himself
to fly.

I try to be developmental as hell, because that's
supposed to be "the best" way of teaching. For
some maneuvers, I ask the student if he would
like to try it himself for the first time, and see
how it works out. Generally it really stresses
the student out, and is not always a good idea.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Shiny Side Up » Thu May 22, 2014 4:20 pm

I think the part about not letting the student hurt themselves is making sure there are no critical gaps in their knowledge. I've come across quite a few people who've learned to fly in some informal method, and like children who are homeschooled, they tend to be very good at some stuff, but there's something critical missing.
---------- ADS -----------
  
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!

xysn
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:49 pm

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by xysn » Fri May 23, 2014 12:29 pm

Some good thoughts on that blog, including the one about "taking charge" of your own training.
Learning to fly is much like being a medical patient. There are those who simply put themselves at the mercy of their physician and take whatever they’re told at face value, never questioning, researching, or double checking anything. That little voice in the back of your head that says something is wrong? Ignore it — the doctor said it’s nothing. Right?
If you want to be successful you have become pilot-in-command of your own training, because as hard as a CFI might try, they will never know you as well as you know yourself. Your weaknesses, your strengths, your personality type. Likewise, just as instructors are taught to insist on proper performance from their students during maneuvers and tasks while flying, so the student must insist on quality service from those providing the training. It’s a two-way street, but in the presence of an authority figure, it’s human nature to assume they must know better than you do.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Low time PPL

Oxi
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:33 pm

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Oxi » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:53 am

Came upon this on Reddit today... Back story is that the co-pilot/passenger/instructor comes along for flights while this PPL builds time. So many cringing moments in this video! Colonel Sanders care to take look?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV7ggNJ2a0I

---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7513
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Colonel Sanders » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:37 am

Saw it already.

Who am I to be critical of modern flight
instruction techniques? This is how Transport
Canada wants it done!
---------- ADS -----------
  

carbeerater
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:14 am

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by carbeerater » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:32 pm

That video was gross. How many times do you have to look at traffic behind you? There are pedals on the floor! They do something useful! Is that an instructor in the right seat or is this some kind of prank?

"Shove the nose down... gently" :shock:

"Get ready to go around!" While still on downwind? Or turning base? "Actpa!!! " (obviously never ok but in the circuit!) Wtf?
And then they uploaded it to YouTube! Where is the shameful, head shaking, facepalming emoticon?

"It's wild!" Lol
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by carbeerater on Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

carbeerater
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:14 am

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by carbeerater » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:37 pm

And then the coup de gras... (sp?) "... that's how it's done."

Is there a barf emoticon?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7513
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Colonel Sanders » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:15 pm

I'm sure Transport Canada just can't wait
to make that instructor a Designated Examiner.

Remember, both the student (PPL, now)
and his instructor think that's how it "should
be done". So much so, they uploaded the
video for everyone to benefit from his
instructional technique.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Old Dog Flying
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:18 pm

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Old Dog Flying » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:07 pm

Is it any wonder that we Old Dogs are so critical of todays breed of instructors? Well this vieo tells it all.

And maybe lardbutt should take up garbage collection for a living.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7749
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:35 pm

It doesn't end there either.

The owner of the local soaring club spends--I swear to God--hours on the radio, micromanaging the tow pilot on how to fly. The tow pilot is licensed, is competent enough not to turn the Pawnee into a ball of twisted metal and fabric upon landing, and towing gliders isn't exactly rocket science.

But... every.... single... day... on the ATF frequency. "Ease back on the power a bit." "You need to speed up." "You need to slow down." "A little to the right." "Don't fly over X's house."

No other glider pilot says anything on the radio except for "All out" and "Thank's for the tow."... plus a very occasional "Can you take me to X?" or (with a student) "We're boxing the wake."
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

Condorito
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 3:36 pm

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Condorito » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:05 pm

I love the fist props they give each other after the landing. Wicked good video!
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2229
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by digits_ » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:52 pm

Wondering what I should write here

A) I am wondering who the pilot was in that video
B) Seems like the student was treated like an autopilot
C) If the "instructor" is more nervous than the student, something is really wrong
D) All of the above
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7513
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Colonel Sanders » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:05 pm

"Student" in left seat holds a PPL.

One must wonder how he made it
through his flight test.

There are "Santa Claus" Designated
Examiners everywhere, it seems.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
5x5
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1451
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by 5x5 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:08 pm

Old Dog Flying wrote:Is it any wonder that we Old Dogs are so critical of todays breed of instructors? Well this vieo tells it all.
Two thoughts -
1. It's nice to know there were never, ever any poor instructors in the "good old days."
2. What makes for many an "elder" (as discussed another thread) is the tendency to take one example and apply it to all.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain

User avatar
Colonel Sanders
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7513
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Over Macho Grande

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Colonel Sanders » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:14 pm

take one example and apply it to all
Here's a thought. On reddit, with all the youngsters,
the video was well received. They didn't see anything
wrong with it.

Isolated example? No. That clusterf__k was normal
to them. Regardless of your attempt to spin this,
that's frightening.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
cyeg66
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: of my mind is in gutter.

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by cyeg66 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:19 pm

My palms are sweaty after watching that. Big dude is one seriously nervous individual.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Turn right/left heading XXX, vectors for the hell of it.

User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Shiny Side Up » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:25 pm

Colonel Sanders wrote:"Student" in left seat holds a PPL.

One must wonder how he made it
through his flight test.
Hard to say, he might have been just fine at that point, but unfortunately he's found an "experienced" instructor who's going to give him some "pointers". One has to wonder what the arrangement is for this "instruction". Free instruction from someone who touts themselves as experienced is very popular out there, and one supposes that its hard for the neophytes to tell the difference. Its hard to tell how good the "student" is from the video since having a right seat driver is not conducive to good performance.

Video reminded me of this.

Image

I also have to wonder if the scab in the right seat convinced the poor kid to log it as dual. There seems to be a fair amount of these shitheads hanging around any airport posing as "experts".
---------- ADS -----------
  
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!

boogs82
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:55 am
Contact:

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by boogs82 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:03 pm

I'm new to flying still. That video scared the hell out of me. If I was in an aircraft with an instructor like that, it'd be my last flight with him. I've flow CYRO many times for a good portion of my training. No matter how busy it got, it was never as bad as that instructor makes it seem. Or whoever made the comment that it was busy. I kept wondering if the aircraft was going to fall out of the sky the way it was being jerked around. Oh well. Maybe I have a good portion of the old breed in my blood.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7749
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:05 pm

5x5 wrote:
Old Dog Flying wrote:Is it any wonder that we Old Dogs are so critical of todays breed of instructors? Well this vieo tells it all.
Two thoughts -
1. It's nice to know there were never, ever any poor instructors in the "good old days."
2. What makes for many an "elder" (as discussed another thread) is the tendency to take one example and apply it to all.

Actually... one thing I've noticed is that it is typically 'older' flight instructors who behave like this.


These aren't the older instructors that started in their teens or 20s and have decades of experience behind them. No... these are instructors who started in their 40s and 50s... ...read every single book, every single editorial in Plane and Pilot, and bought all of the King Aviation VHS tapes... ...drove their Class 4, 3, 2, and 1s insane when getting their training... ...invented a ton of quirky ideas on their own... ..have an over active sense of mortality... and now are trying to pass on all of that knowledge and fear to an already saturated student.

Low time young instructors? Inexperienced and impatient yes..... ...but typically in no position to further confuse the student with tons of extraneous information and often without that sense of mortality that allows them to let situations develop so the student can exercise PDM.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

User avatar
Shiny Side Up
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
Location: Group W bench

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Shiny Side Up » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:32 pm

Actually... one thing I've noticed is that it is typically 'older' flight instructors who behave like this.


These aren't the older instructors that started in their teens or 20s and have decades of experience behind them. No... these are instructors who started in their 40s and 50s... ...read every single book, every single editorial in Plane and Pilot, and bought all of the King Aviation VHS tapes... ...drove their Class 4, 3, 2, and 1s insane when getting their training... ...invented a ton of quirky ideas on their own... ..have an over active sense of mortality... and now are trying to pass on all of that knowledge and fear to an already saturated student.
IFP, you hit the nail on the head. I've run into a lot of guys like that one in the video who exactly fit your description. The bad thing I find is that these guys can often decieve a student into thinking that they are a 40-50 year old instructor with decades of flying experience.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Shiny Side Up on Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!

User avatar
Rookie50
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1819
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:00 am
Location: Clear of the Active.

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Rookie50 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:55 pm

Nervous IP's are not fun to fly with. Had one -- one flight only for a currency checkout -- who now happens to be a FO on a Lear or some thing -- might be an amazing pilot but horribly nervous IP. Couldn't wait to get out of the plane that time.

I was fortunate in my IFR training as my main IP rarely talked -- unless I asked -- and actually appeared to be sleeping (not really -- but that composed) while I repeatedly attempted to kill us both with my first few horrible under the hood approaches. Nerves of steel, some of these guys.

My primary IP, different guy, also very relaxed although with more suggestions occasionally, which is helpful when you have like under 10 hours and don't even know what you don't know.

Grateful as IP's like that give space for one to work things out and figure out our errors on our own, which results I think in better entrenched learning.
---------- ADS -----------
  

GyvAir
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1779
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by GyvAir » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:39 am

Oxi wrote:Came upon this on Reddit today... Back story is that the co-pilot/passenger/instructor comes along for flights while this PPL builds time. So many cringing moments in this video! Colonel Sanders care to take look?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV7ggNJ2a0I

Peter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLXQbVmjzcE

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLXQbVmjzcE[/youtube]
---------- ADS -----------
  

Chris M
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:41 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Instructors: Stop Helping

Post by Chris M » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:47 pm

The worst instructor I ever flew with was an older fellow. His favourite "teaching method" was to reach over and pull my hand off the yoke to see if the airplane was trimmed. After doing it a couple times on a previous flight I saw him trying again and just held on to the yoke tightly, so when he pulled my wrist up and back it made for some impromptu unusual attitude training.

You want to know if it's trimmed? Ask. We have these fancy headset thingies on, they let us talk to each other. You want to fly the airplane? Say so. Otherwise you sit there fat dumb and happy with your clipboard in your lap and your hands out of the way.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”