Motivation to Teach

[Docbrad]

There is an issue that has been bothering me quite a bit recently that I would like to discuss with the community. My flying background is that of the Air Cadet program (PPL), and a flight college (CPL, Group 1 IR). In these programs I did not pay for my flying (directly anyway). I mean, I did not get billed for the airplane and my instructor at the end of my flight. I am not sure about the staff where I did my cadet training, but I know as a fact that at my flight college, the instructors were not paid by the hour. They are on a salary, so whether is is a bad weather day, or their students didn't show up, or if they do 5 flights, they go home with the exact same amount of money every week.

Sounds great, right?

Since I graduated this college, I have moved on to do an instructor rating at a typical flight school in a completely different part of the country. The attitude of the instructors here is completely different! Unless it's a yes/no, true/false type of question, the instructors will want to bill you for their time. Now, I don't 100% blame the instructor for doing this as I am fully aware of how little they get paid, but what kind of system is this?

This is where it really gets me: I was talking with some other students who were learning some NDB stuff in preparation for the CPL written. Having just gotten an instrument rating, I decided to help them out, give them tips etc. At the end of the discussion one of the students looked at me and asked with a puzzled face "Why are you teaching us this? We aren't even paying you"

Because I thought that's what flight training was all about. You know, LEARNING. When I was in college, if I had an issue with something (NDB's, for example) I would ask an instructor for their help. As long as they weren't busy, they would invite me to pull up a chair and we go to great lengths about what I was having issues with. They didn't mind, because they are just doing their job. They are paid fairly well to not have to charge the student per hour.

Now, these two guys are studying their butts off in a school with 5 instrument rated instructors in the building, but they are terrified of asking them for help because the students don't want to get billed $50-$60 an hour!

How is this a safe system? One where students don't ask questions out of fear of having to pay the bill. A system, where their knowledge is so expensive they don't want to pass it on to fellow students because "why should I pay for it and he shouldn't?"

I WANT to be a good flight instructor. I'm not in it for the money. I want my students to succeed, otherwise I would have just taken a ramp job. How can I deal with this mentality?

NOTE: I purposely left out the names of the specific places I did my training with for a reason. I'm not here to discuss specific schools, but this problem with the flight training industry as a whole.

[digits_]

I understand what you are saying, but what do you think will happen to instructors on salary that don't bill for ground instruction ? Their boss won't like it...

[photofly]

You might not be in it for the money, but when you've run a business for yourself you'll understand. You are a commodity for sale, and you want to donate yourself for free. You can see why that would be an issue for some.

[Docbrad]

I understand why it's happening, I just don't like it.

If the instructor is on salary, wouldn't the school prefer that they give lots of ground instruction without billing? The school gets more bang for their buck that way. Students will like it, more students show up, since everyone wants everyone to learn, knowledge and experience are free, school becomes popular. Students still pay for airplane rental however.

I'm no business major tho, my logic is most likely flawed

[digits_]

If the instructor is on salary, wouldn't the school prefer that they give lots of ground instruction without billing? The school gets more bang for their buck that way.

Where do you think the money for the salary of the instructor is coming from ? If the instructor spends a major part of his time giving away ground instruction for free, there is no income for the school to pay the instructor.

[Docbrad]

Perhaps move away from the "pay per hour" method. The flight School I'm at now does mostly pay per hour except for one course. That just happens to be the instructor course that I am on. Instead of pay per hour, I paid a big lump sum. Now, I, as the student, still paid for my instructor's time, but a stopwatch doesn't start when I want to sit down and have an intelligent discussion.

Edit: Spelling error

[mike123]

It depends on the school culture. In my school we don't charge students for asking questions, at another school 20 miles away they turn the timer on as soon as they start talking to you.

I WANT to be a good flight instructor. I'm not in it for the money. I want my students to succeed, otherwise I would have just taken a ramp job. How can I deal with this mentality?

Be the change you want to see in the world.

[photofly]

Interesting.

Advocate piloting for free and you're accused of driving wages through the floor and betraying the brotherhood of pilots.

Advocate teaching for free and you're a saint who has to "be the change"?

[Docbrad]

Not so much "teach for free". I understand that someone has to pay for the education eventually. My issue is that students feel like they are "on the clock" so to speak.

If the students pay a big tuition, instead of per hour, and instructors are on salary, then the students don't feel the pressure of the clock, and the instructors won't withhold info for lack of getting paid.

Like I said, I'm not a business major or anything.. People have to make money somehow... I just think the ATTITUDE should change. I think it would lead to a higher quality training environment, and an attitude in new pilots where they shouldn't be afraid to asked the more experienced a question without getting billed for it

[mike123]

Interesting.

Advocate piloting for free and you're accused of driving wages through the floor and betraying the brotherhood of pilots.

Advocate teaching for free and you're a saint who has to "be the change"?

There is a difference between teaching and answering a quick question in your free time.
Experienced instructors on this forum spend hours of their valuable time answering questions for free, it would be a disservice to everyone if they stop doing that.

[photofly]

Not so much "teach for free". I understand that someone has to pay for the education eventually. My issue is that students feel like they are "on the clock" so to speak.

Alternatively, the student can realize there's nothing wrong with being billed when they need help from an experienced and trained instructor.

If the student is expecting to pay for training, why should they be afraid to ... pay for that training?

I'm on the clock every time I speak to my lawyer, have work done by my AME, or take a taxi. What's the big deal?

[Docbrad]

What's the big deal?

Maybe it's just because I have experienced the other side of the coin. At the college, everyone helped everyone. No one was afraid to ask questions. Instructors were more than willing to sit down and make sure the student understood something, all at no extra cost. This, in turn, allowed students to help out their classmates

The example I used above, of the two guys needing help with NDB's, as I finished what I was saying, I moved on to my own studying and whatnot. I overheard a third classmate offer to tutor them for something like $20/hr.

Maybe I'm just a sucker, but if one of my college classmates needed help, and I was thoroughly knowledgable about the subject and they wanted to go over something, I'd gladly spend some time with them. Not an entire weekend, but I can spare an hour here, an hour there every so often. Instead of getting paid, I was given the opportunity to teach, which not only helped them, but at the same time it improved my understanding of the subject matter as well.

[Rookie50]

Maybe the answer is for students to develop mentoring relationships outside of the Ftu environment, from those who haven't exclusively developed their hours within 25 nm of the circuit.

Hard to learn everything you need to know exclusively from those only versed in the theory and not the practical application.

For those relatively few instructors with extensive outside line experience ---- you are the rare---

From others -- I submit the student needs more voices.

[Shiny Side Up]

What's the big deal?

Maybe it's just because I have experienced the other side of the coin. At the college, everyone helped everyone. No one was afraid to ask questions. Instructors were more than willing to sit down and make sure the student understood something, all at no extra cost. This, in turn, allowed students to help out their classmates

The example I used above, of the two guys needing help with NDB's, as I finished what I was saying, I moved on to my own studying and whatnot. I overheard a third classmate offer to tutor them for something like $20/hr.

Maybe I'm just a sucker, but if one of my college classmates needed help, and I was thoroughly knowledgable about the subject and they wanted to go over something, I'd gladly spend some time with them. Not an entire weekend, but I can spare an hour here, an hour there every so often. Instead of getting paid, I was given the opportunity to teach, which not only helped them, but at the same time it improved my understanding of the subject matter as well.

Some things you're forgetting.

1) There's no "extra cost", because you've already paid for it. At a college, you're paying up front. Don't be under the illusion that's for free. Profs aren't helping you because they're great guys (though the good ones are often more amenable to it) they're doing it because they're paid to and required to. If a flight school was to operate that way, there would need to be a substantial increase in tuition rates. For example I do this with instructor students, its a flat rate for all my ground time, mainly because of what you say: you don't want them to feel like they're getting billed for the minute. Though theoretically I should do that with briefings to get the point across. Never mind that though. Most PPL and CPL students won't be sold on that kind of price structure though, especially since its so variable how much help people actually need. For example, when you get GPL or CPL (H) going for fixed wing, they often don't need a lot of extra ground time, so it keeps PPL training costs flexible.

2) Students helping students can and does happen in flight training, though you have to be careful with that, you get what you pay for. Not everyone wants to tutor their fellows, and some who want to probably shouldn't. In general though, there will be less in the average PPL or CPL class - if there even is a class - so finding people is somewhat less likely.

3) On the topic of paying salaries to instructors it has several pitfalls. The chief one is it tends to lead to under-utilization of the aircraft, and somewhat inefficient use of facility time. While this is good for students, its bad for revenue, which in turn either sinks schools or forces them to raise prices. Pilots are also notoriously lazy bunch, and paid by the hour set ups encourage them to work more, especially during prime-time for students, otherwise you get instructors spending good weather at the beach. Lastly, undesirable students - yet desirable from a revenue stand point - often will get denied service. Now that's my capitalist business side of things. Somewhere there's a balance so instructors can make a decent wage.

4) From the instructor side of things, charging by the hour also ensures that you don't have students abusing your time. I don't give out my phone number to students from long painful experience. But I also try to make sure the students know where the line is for when I'm going to charge them or not.

[photofly]

Maybe it's just because I have experienced the other side of the coin.

With respect, no you haven't. When you've run a flight school business, then you're entitled to say you've experienced the other side of the coin.

Instead of getting paid, I was given the opportunity to teach

Marvellous for you. But until whoever runs the flight school can pay his rent and bills with "opportunity" rather than cash, that's not really sustainable.

[Colonel Sanders]

500

[YYZSaabGuy]

500 per day?
Per week?
Per month?

[photofly]

yes

[JungianJugular]

Because the price of milk and eggs is the same for everybody.

[Colonel Sanders]

Actually, no, not really.

You want to charge people what they can afford.

Great example: new widget. Costs company $50
to make. They charge $1000 initially, and slowly
drop the price as time goes on, eventually down
to $100.

Now, they could charge $100 initially, but that would
be leaving money on the table, n'est ce pas?

PS It's killing me not to mention, that you want to
integrate the area under the price-elasticity curve.

PPS Venn diagrams. Sorry.