Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

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Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by sailandfly » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:35 pm

Is it worth booking SIM time over the winter to keep the learning curve up.. rather than waiting for small pockets of good weather to go flying.

I'm about 25 hours .. in the circuit. I would like to train at least once a week over the winter.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by trey kule » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:51 pm

If you are one of this poor sods instructing who only get paid if you are billing out, then it is a great idea. Starvation, or screwing over your students...a simple choice for far to many of them.

If you are a 25 hour student...then no.
A PPL is a VFR licence. Spending hours on the guages at this point is going to result in some verybad habits.

The Redbird is a very nice sim...For teaching and keeping current IF skills , it is excellent.
But other than an hour or two of IF training it has absolutely no place in a ppl program.


If any instructor tells you different, read the first paragraph again.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:16 pm

TK

Have you ever actually used a Redbird sim ?
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by cgzro » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:34 pm

What part of Canada are you in. In the cold parts there is no reason not to fly in the winter. Hell if I can fly an unheared biplane in -10 surely you young folks can handle the same or worse in a heated Cessna:)

Rainy parts are another matter ..
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by trey kule » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:42 pm

bPF.

Yes.. as a student, an instructor, and an ACP, though in the basic one, only a few times.

And As I posted, I think they are great for IF work. Not good for developing the habit of looking outside despite the graphics.
A PPL is a VFR license, and VFR habits should be instilled. I will admit that it might be possible if the instructor constantly watched the students eyes, or totally covered the panel.....might be!

But as was already posted, there is no part of Canada that you cannot get an hour or two in a month in a real plane..

But if you are an instructior,,,,,make lemonade from lemons..

My advice to the OP is without bias . I simply cautioned him that instructors who tell him different just maybe, might be, could be, a teeny bit biased....which of course you, BPF, are not. It is all about giving the best value in training to your student...right?

Perhaps instead of your innuendo question to me, if you disagree, post an argument supporting your position. Let the original poster make their own assessment of the two points of view.



here is a thought.

If A person is scheduled to do a sim session for IF work, and the sun comes out, the birds are chirping...do they switch to the plane? No. For many reasons the sim is better as well as cheaper

Now for. 25 hour student pilot who comes to the airport and the sun is shining...its up in a real plane...but if the weather is not suitable, suddenly the sim is appropriate???

Unless there is a valid reason to be in the sim, simply doing sim work because the weather for flying is not suitable, is at least in my opinion, milking the student.

Feel free to disagree, but I hope your argument will be more substatianal than asking about my sim experience.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by 172pilot » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:44 pm

I am not a fan of the Red Bird sim. Seems to be an extremely over-hyped desktop sim with limited motion. Why not get a copy of MS Flight Sim, add on some very detailed scenery, and three cheap flat panel monitors and have the same thing at home (minus the motion)? You can still practice any sort of procedures your want, flight planning, etc.

Ideally, save your money and fly when the weather allows.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by I_Drive_Planes » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:27 pm

I finished up the rest of my instrument time for my night rating in a Redbird sim. I was less than impressed. I don't think that I gained any more proficiency than I would have gained flying the same amount of time in Microsoft Flight Simulator on my home pc.

My advice to the OP: You are learning to fly airplanes, so fly airplanes. The simulator sucks, just fly the airplane when it's available. If you want to make use of your downtime then read. Read everything you can about all facets of flying. Read and reread your ground school materials and your POH. For all of the whining and bickering that goes on here, the archives of Avcanada are a treasure trove of information. Anything you might want to do or any problem you might have with an airplane has already been experienced by (and very likely written about by) someone here. Do some searching and find worthwhile posts from the more experienced posters (it won't take you long to figure out who those are). Take the opportunity during the winter to learn about weather and winter aircraft operations. Winter downtime is a great opportunity to do some armchair aviating and brush up on the academic side of flying.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Pop n Fresh » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:38 pm

172pilot wrote:Why not get a copy of MS Flight Sim, add on some very detailed scenery, and three cheap flat panel monitors and have the same thing at home (minus the motion)? You can still practice any sort of procedures your want, flight planning, etc.
Ah but Trey and I planned to put that in the back of a cargo van. Then while the student did their training I would drive around. Viola, full motion flight sim! $80/hour.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:39 pm

TK

I asked about your experience with the Redbird because I have met several pilots who thought the Redbird was comparable to the Frasca type sims. It is not IMO as I think it is considerably more capable'

I do not agree with a blanket statement that the Redbird is useless for VFR training

Just like in the airplane instruction, your Red Bird training flight can be totally useless or provide real value added. Again like in the airplane instruction, how useful your training is, is very dependent on the skill of the instructor.

With respect to the OP, a student 25 hours into his training, I think there is a place for the Redbird. In airplane instruction is obviously best but the reality is weather and airplane/instructor/student availability can often results in weeks between flights. I think the Redbird is a good option for a fill in when it is obvious that the next flight is not going to happen right away.

The secret to effective use of the Redbird is to not use it as an airplane replacement, that is try to replicate a typical flight, instead use it to practice exercises that it can effectively replicate.

So for example for the 25 hr student some exercises that can be done

- Illusions in the circuit: The instructor sets up a honking wind 90 deg to the runway. The student has to fly a square circuit. This exercise is a great introduction to the dangers of the misjudged base to final turn caused by not managing the aircraft track. Every approach should be a go around as this is IMO an under practiced exercise in flight training and the trying to land the Redbird is a waste of time

- EFATO and engine fail in the circuit: This can be an effective PDM exercise and is a great demonstration of when you go for the runway or just go for the nearest flat part of the airport.

- Change of runway: At controlled airports with 2 or more runways, a sudden change from the typical circuit is often not well handled by low time pilots. So there is value in using the Redbird to fly all the possible combinations.

For more advanced students a hugely valuable exercise is to show what reduced visibility looks like and how easily it is to get disoriented when the vis drops. For the IF training of the PPL you can simulate a sudden VMC to IMC scenario in a much more realistic way then just getting the student to put on a hood.

The Redbird should not be a central part of the PPL course but used appropriately it can enhance the PPL training and keep the student engaged and at the airport.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by SuperchargedRS » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:48 pm

172pilot wrote:I am not a fan of the Red Bird sim. Seems to be an extremely over-hyped desktop sim with limited motion. Why not get a copy of MS Flight Sim, add on some very detailed scenery, and three cheap flat panel monitors and have the same thing at home (minus the motion)? You can still practice any sort of procedures your want, flight planning, etc.

Ideally, save your money and fly when the weather allows.


That

I agree with the others, you're not going to get much out of it, maybe some bad habits.

I gave a good deal of instrument training in a FMX, and did some training in one myself (by myself) to brush of a some odd ball stuff.

First off, the full motion is a gimmick, I would turn it off.

Second it's running a slightly tweaked version of Microsoft Flight Sim, you can even hit CTRL (if memory serves) and pull up the flight sim menu.

For IFR stuff its great as long as your not paying much more than 40bucks a hr for the sim. For VFR NOPE

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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Shiny Side Up » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:25 am

Big Pistons Forever wrote: The secret to effective use of the Redbird is to not use it as an airplane replacement, that is try to replicate a typical flight, instead use it to practice exercises that it can effectively replicate.
Thi here is the key and the list of things to do in the sim are good ideas. Unfortunately, almost no instructors, especially those doing ab initio training, know how to use a Sim to effectively train. Nevermind know when the sim is useful. From experience, almost no class fours are taught anything about using them and frequently are told "go use the sim" and let flail about with it. Even when some are told what to do with it, they frequently mis-use it.

With that in mind, in 99.999% (repeating of course) instances, I could not recomend that a student, especially one below the 20 hour mark, make use of the sim for anything but possibly a basic refresher of instrument flying, or introduction to it.

As you've aid, there are uses for it, but I always feel these are for the PPL student who is somewhat farther advanced in their training.

The worst thing I keep seeing these days is gross misuse of the sim, to disasterous effect. Many schools these days are using the sim for all the initial lessons then the students are going straight into the circuit when they jump in the plane. Needless to say the students are struggling, and without exception when they in frustration come to me, they are terrible. People with 50-60 hours with no idea how to fly the airplane, which is understandable since some of them spent the first dozen hours (one notable case had spent 25 hours) in the sim.

I would say that I despise the redbird, if only because when anyone gets one, they seem to need to recoup the investment on it asap, and push it needlessly.

To the OP, if you want to use the sim, remember that you got 3 hours of sim time that you can use towards your instrument flying for your PPL. Sinec I doubt that your instructor is one of the few who can use a sim effectively for other training, I would advise not using it or more than those three hours.

edit: I should note that some places are charging the same, or close to, rates for their sims as they do their airplanes. If this is the case, don't do any sim time. Real airplane time is always more useful to you.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by trey kule » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:05 am

where the hell is TC in all this? Are they just standing by watching flight schools do this?

I hope any student that has more than three hours in a sim during their PPL, talks to a lawyer about recovering their money.

BTW..100% in agreement about instructors wasting time in the sim.

My original post on this thread was directed towards flight schools and instructors who tell the student it is a good idea. the poor students don't know better. But I had no idea that sims were being used to that extent on a ppl.

When I give it some thought, that is thousands of dollars of unloggable time, and time that could have been spent flying and working towards a licemse.



I think someone should start a thread posting the school names.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by photofly » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:20 am

trey kule wrote:
When I give it some thought, that is thousands of dollars of unloggable time, and time that could have been spent flying and working towards a licemse.
Time in a sim is loggable, it just can't (other than the three hours) be counted towards licensing requirements.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by trey kule » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:02 am

Yes, of course you are right. Silly me was just thinking that most PPL students want to pay for time that can be credited towards their license. And , of course, learn how to fly an actual plane.

I am still gobsmacked by the idea of some FTU giving a ppl student their first 25 hours in a sim,

I was aware that some sim manufacturers were trying to promote this idea..

I am waiting for some instructor to post how doing a ppl xCountry in a sim is a good idea...
Darn fine salesmen, some instructors.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by photofly » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:56 am

I know some PPL students who've prepped for a cross country by flying the route in advance at home on MS FlightSim. They seemed to think it was time well spent, but you'd need to ask them for the details. That time isn't loggable, of course. But it is free of charge.

Harv's Air seems to recommend their Rebird for quite a lot of exercises:
http://harvsair.com/about/fleet/red-bir ... ng-device/
I didn't realise they were a bunch of crooks out to swindle the honest students. But you learn a lot on AvCanada, for sure.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Rookie50 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:02 am

I did a lot of IFR practice shooting approaches in MS flight sim. IMO if set up with rain and a nasty gusty crosswind, flight sim is far harder than the real thing.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Shiny Side Up » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:33 am

photofly wrote: I didn't realise they were a bunch of crooks out to swindle the honest students. But you learn a lot on AvCanada, for sure.
It really depends on how sim time is pushed. I'm not certain of their exact sales tactic, but to be honest, it stinks a bit. I hate to say it but every place that has aquired a sim of this type has somewhat degraded their training since everywhere I've seen pushes it like it a golden hammer solution to make training affordable. At the end of the day, zero sim time counts towards your 200 hours for a CPL, so unless you really need extra time - which to be honest doesn't speak either towards your own planning or your instructors, so spending money on it if you're a CPL student is really hard to make the case that it saves money or is necessary. I got plenty of students with CPLs with zero sim time.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Pop n Fresh » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:24 am

photofly wrote:
trey kule wrote:
When I give it some thought, that is thousands of dollars of unloggable time, and time that could have been spent flying and working towards a licemse.
Time in a sim is loggable, it just can't (other than the three hours) be counted towards licensing requirements.
Did I see you in Oshkosh?

After I finished on the RedBird cub I quipped. "That's an awesome toy you guys have." To the RedBird rep. A guy standing near us quite indignantly gasped, "Toy? You can log time on that."

Whoop de doo! Why on god's green earth would I want to log sim time?


Erm... I mean, Trey seems to be out of our sce.. Er, business plan to build a "full motion sim." Anyone have a van?
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by photofly » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:20 am

Sigh.

I don't know why you'd want to log sim time either.

But I'm not impressed with arguments that boils down to "I'm unbiased therefore I'm correct" (even leaving aside the intellectual confusion between unbiased and disinterested) along side "anyone who disagrees with me is a crook".
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by 5x5 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:31 am

Shiny Side Up wrote:At the end of the day, zero sim time counts towards your 200 hours for a CPL, so unless you really need extra time - which to be honest doesn't speak either towards your own planning or your instructors, so spending money on it if you're a CPL student is really hard to make the case that it saves money or is necessary. I got plenty of students with CPLs with zero sim time.
Are you sure? It seems CARs 421.30 (4) Experience says different -

(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

So wouldn't those students with no sim time have overpaid for their CPL by not using one for 10 of the 20 instrument hours they need?
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Pop n Fresh » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:28 pm

photofly wrote:Sigh.

I don't know why you'd want to log sim time either.

But I'm not impressed with arguments that boils down to "I'm unbiased therefore I'm correct" (even leaving aside the intellectual confusion between unbiased and disinterested) along side "anyone who disagrees with me is a crook".
If a person thinks anyone that disagrees with them is a crook I would suggest that is a biased opinion.

I would possibly pay to "fly" a simulator with BigPistonsForever teaching me things. I believe there would be value in his ideas.

If I were to log any sim time (can't see it) I would start a separate book.

Most importantly. Do you have a van?
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Shiny Side Up » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:58 pm

5x5 wrote:
Shiny Side Up wrote:At the end of the day, zero sim time counts towards your 200 hours for a CPL, so unless you really need extra time - which to be honest doesn't speak either towards your own planning or your instructors, so spending money on it if you're a CPL student is really hard to make the case that it saves money or is necessary. I got plenty of students with CPLs with zero sim time.
Are you sure? It seems CARs 421.30 (4) Experience says different -

(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

So wouldn't those students with no sim time have overpaid for their CPL by not using one for 10 of the 20 instrument hours they need?
No, while you may log 10 of the 20 instrument hours in he sim, it still specifies:
(4) Experience

(a) An applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) have completed, subject to paragraph (b), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes,
Thus, you might as well do that time in an aeroplane, since you can't have 190 hours in a plane and 10 hours sim towards that total. The amount of dual towards the CPL reflects this.
photofly wrote:Sigh.

I don't know why you'd want to log sim time either.

But I'm not impressed with arguments that boils down to "I'm unbiased therefore I'm correct" (even leaving aside the intellectual confusion between unbiased and disinterested) along side "anyone who disagrees with me is a crook".
Personally PF, I don't know what to think of it in this instance. I've talked to a lot of people at a lot of schools (including Harv's), and there's a lot of people drinking the juice, and someone is doing some good sales pitches selling simulators. From experience, I've yet to run into an instance where someone has been sold a lot of sim time and they turn out to be an awesome pilot. All instances have been problematic. In my opinion its getting to he point of almost being criminal, and students are getting taken for their money. Sims are being horribly mis-used, in some cases willingly. Had someone come to me the other day who had a whopping 50 hours of sim time that he was under the impression of helping him towards his CPL. Didn't even have any IFR stuff in there to make it useful, school had him practicing spins in the sim. The worst part is that time comes at a whopping $180/ hour. Needless to say he had to save up some money to finish since he run out. Now maybe calling people who sell this kind of malarkey crooks hurts their feelings, but maybe its what this business (flight training) needs.

Now that's a biased opinion. I'm consistently engaged in fixing the screw ups in flight training, and some days it really pisses me off.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Pop n Fresh » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:21 pm

Why get angry about it? The reason most that start any sort of business is to make the maximum profit for the minimum investment.

Maybe the thought process in taking $180 from a student fifty times was, "Someone would have done it. Why not me?" That was what many other poker players used to say when I talked about not enjoying cash games because, busting a person for thousands of dollars in chips they never should have had in a tournament was easier for me, than busting them for big money they brought there that day. Some said, "It's immoral not to take the money."

That is why I still like my other schools. I don't get emotional about them putting the curriculum ahead of teaching. Like the saying goes, "It's nothing personal. It's just business."
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by 5x5 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:14 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:Thus, you might as well do that time in an aeroplane, since you can't have 190 hours in a plane and 10 hours sim towards that total. The amount of dual towards the CPL reflects this.
I don't think that's correct and in fact it is perfectly acceptable and commonly done with 190 in plane and 10 in a sim. I've posted below a more complete excerpt from the CARS with highlights. It does state "in aeroplanes" a couple of times but the inclusion of sim time is an exception for the 10 hours of the total 20 hours instrument that is allowed.
CARS 421.30 - excerpt wrote:(4) Experience

(a) An applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) have completed, subject to paragraph (b), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes, of which a minimum of 100 hours shall be pilot-in-command time including 20 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time, and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(ii) following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane by Canada or another contracting state, have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)
I don't think clause (lll) means that you have to have 200 hours in a physical aircraft and if you'd like to add on an unnecessary 10 hours in a sim then that's OK.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Pop n Fresh » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:31 pm

I think the sim can be better for some amount of instrument time because the student can't peek, and you can safely simulate sketchy weather and crashing.

"Ok, so that's why you need to keep up your scan and make sure you don't spiral into the ground like that. In a real plane the ELT would hopefully be calling for help right now. A bonus in the unlikely event we survived that crash."
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