Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

5x5 wrote:
Shiny Side Up wrote:Thus, you might as well do that time in an aeroplane, since you can't have 190 hours in a plane and 10 hours sim towards that total. The amount of dual towards the CPL reflects this.
I don't think that's correct and in fact it is perfectly acceptable and commonly done with 190 in plane and 10 in a sim. I've posted below a more complete excerpt from the CARS with highlights. It does state "in aeroplanes" a couple of times but the inclusion of sim time is an exception for the 10 hours of the total 20 hours instrument that is allowed.
CARS 421.30 - excerpt wrote:
(4) Experience

(a) An applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) have completed, subject to paragraph (b), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes, of which a minimum of 100 hours shall be pilot-in-command time including 20 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time, and

I don't think clause (lll) means that you have to have 200 hours in a physical aircraft and if you'd like to add on an unnecessary 10 hours in a sim then that's OK.
Nope. Para 4(a) i is unambiguos. The 200 hrs has to be in an aeroplane

If you do 10 hours in the sim then you will need 200 hrs in an aeroplane and the 10 hours in a sim to get your CPL. The sim time is in addition to the flight time requirement not a substitute for it
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Pop n Fresh wrote:Why get angry about it? The reason most that start any sort of business is to make the maximum profit for the minimum investment.

Maybe the thought process in taking $180 from a student fifty times was, "Someone would have done it. Why not me?" That was what many other poker players used to say when I talked about not enjoying cash games because, busting a person for thousands of dollars in chips they never should have had in a tournament was easier for me, than busting them for big money they brought there that day. Some said, "It's immoral not to take the money."

That is why I still like my other schools. I don't get emotional about them putting the curriculum ahead of teaching. Like the saying goes, "It's nothing personal. It's just business."
Lets put it this way, it would be like the teachers of the school selling red bull to the kids and telling them its going to help them learn better. You might say that that should be perfectly fine since the kids can go to Seven Eleven and get it themselves, so what's the harm? Might as well be you taking their money instead of Seven Eleven right? You could tell the kids its necessary for them to get through their training, somewhat of an abuse of your position of authority, but technically not illegal. You might even have the school board determine that to make ore money, they could have machines dispensing red bull in the school, and get the teachers to push its benefits. Now imagine at this school the kids don't have the benefit of wiser parents to counteract such action.

Now I'm sure the above doesn't sound very good, maybe if you were a parent of a kid and found out this was what the school is up to, you'd be a little unhappy.

By the way, anyone who tells you "its just business" is going to, or is in the process of, f*cking you over.
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trey kule
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by trey kule »

You know, what we need is some sort of test.

I hope that some student (ex student) who got 25 hours on a sim for a ppl will file a small claims action against the school, and each of the instructors, jointly and severally., and a complaint to the ombudsman regarding TC,s lack of oversight.

Small claims is generally a very simple process ( provincial..so differences), and I think this would be a slam dunk....students trust the flight school and their instructors, and if that duty is being abused, I expect the courts will side with the student....regardless if they were "told". That it was not loggable time, but would help etc etc....

If someone is in this situation I hope they will do the industry a service...one successful claim, and everone can join in....

Or maybe the college of pilots will be all over this.....
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sailandfly
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by sailandfly »

Just to clarify my instructor has not pushed me on the sim whatsoever. It's something I am wondering if it would aid in my training over another crappy winter. I have only been in the sim once at my request pushing it.. We did engine failures in the circuit. The figure of 25 in my original post is not 25 hours of sim time, it's 25 hours total flight lessons logged in the air FTR.

The other strange thing about be in the sim is.. that I began to get motion sickness in the sim.. yet in the plane, boat, rides etc.. I never get sick?? What's up with that ?
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by CpnCrunch »

sailandfly wrote: The other strange thing about be in the sim is.. that I began to get motion sickness in the sim.. yet in the plane, boat, rides etc.. I never get sick?? What's up with that ?
I believe this happens because the motion isn't synchronized well enough with the visuals. I've never used a Redbird myself, but a pilot at a flying club who tried it out said it made him feel sick as well.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by C-GKNT »

sailandfly wrote:Just to clarify my instructor has not pushed me on the sim whatsoever. It's something I am wondering if it would aid in my training over another crappy winter. I have only been in the sim once at my request pushing it.. We did engine failures in the circuit. The figure of 25 in my original post is not 25 hours of sim time, it's 25 hours total flight lessons logged in the air FTR.

The other strange thing about be in the sim is.. that I began to get motion sickness in the sim.. yet in the plane, boat, rides etc.. I never get sick?? What's up with that ?
Its simulator sickness. The motion (if any) of the simulator can only mimic the real thing. The fact that the visuals your brain gets do not correspond to the motion (if any) your body is ACTUALLY experiencing is what is making you feel off. I get is as well. Personally, I do not think that the motion in a Red Bird Sim adds all much value although the visuals are good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulator_sickness

On the topic of using a Red Bird for PPL training, I'll disagree with the others. In the past, I have attended SimCom and RTC (lower cost Sim training just outside of Chicago). I have also done IFR renewals here in an ALSim and also in a Red Bird Sim.

I happen to visit the Red Bird School down in San Antonio TX last month. They are offering fixed price PPL's with the expectation of getting your PPL in about 5 hours more than FAA minimums. Each hour in a "real" airplane is preceded AND followed by an hour in the Sim learning/reviewing the corresponding maneuvers. While it won't add to your total time for ratings I think that it is a good way to learn and adds real value. Depending on what you are doing a cockpit can be a lousy place to learn.

Their students basically have unlimited access to the Sim included in the fixed price (Note that the fixed price was not necessarily lower than getting a PPL the "traditional" way). The equation would change somewhat if there is an additional cost to the Sim time.


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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Pop n Fresh »

Shiny, I am not defending flight training units or anyone performing wallet-ectomys. I am not saying you are not justified in a little healthy annoyance. I am saying for your own good because I personally like you, that you need to step back look again and have a little laugh about some of it.

The justification that "someone will take a fools money, might as well be me." Is horrible but it exists.

Worse yet we are in a time where consumer protection is totally broken.
Shiny Side Up wrote:...teachers... selling Red Bull... Now imagine at this school the kids don't have the benefit of wiser parents to counteract such action.

Now I'm sure the above doesn't sound very good, maybe if you were a parent of a kid and found out this was what the school is up to, you'd be a little unhappy.
My wife was quite active in our children's school and myself less so but still volunteered for things, mostly field trips. I don't have to imagine parents relying on the staff of schools to teach their children absolutely everything, while having no desire to question what's going on.

I have also worked in several Elementary schools and spoke with plenty of frustrated teachers who would tell of interesting events. When told about their child being rude or unable to put on their own jacket often the parent would explain, "That's why I send them to school. You need to teach them that." Ok, you teach them math then.

Red Bull in schools is probably happening somewhere. You could open an illegal bar if it got administrations approval. I suspect complaining would come from 5% of the parents and even less would pull their kid from a school doing something even that blatantly horrible.

There is a soda pop ban at my daughters Jr. high school. I heard about it from a parent while we were volunteering at a casino, I don't think the students are aware of it. My daughter was complaining last night about another student teasingly hiding her Dr Pepper.

So when,
I wrote:Why get angry about it?
I meant to say getting annoyed is good just not going postal or Hulk SMASH! Have a good remembrance day.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by trey kule »

I am very aware of the Red Bird " GIFT". Program.
In my opinion, it is nothing but a marketing gimmick to maximize use of their sims.
The cost for a ppl , in a typical flight school will not be cheaper, and the student who wanted to learn to fly a plane will have spent half their time in a sim! And FTU,s, unlike the Redbird training/maketing department, will not be offering no charge unlimited use of the sim.

There have been studies done about the motion in a sim. Poor quality motion simulation actually dters from the learning, or worse, sets up the wrong cues in our memories. It is why the folks at elite and frasca use FTDs for EASA training. Very sophisticated.

But redbirds are cheap...and they look simmish...great marketing.

For IF work they do the job. It is what they were originally intended for, before some marketing guru decided to make sure that anyone showing up at the airport should get an aviation experience...
Flying an actual plane...optional!
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Cat Driver »

There have been studies done about the motion in a sim. Poor quality motion simulation actually dters from the learning, or worse, sets up the wrong cues in our memories.
Sound....control feed back and true motion of flight can not be simulated accurately.

These sims are detrimental to learning to fly at the PPL level in my opinion.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by trey kule »

I think your opinion is shared by most, except for the manufacturers, a few FTUs, and some instructors.

But sim training in Canada is a high margin revenue generator.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Pop n Fresh wrote: Worse yet we are in a time where consumer protection is totally broken.
That's why people need to get mad, you can't trust the government (nor should you) to protect you from everything. That's the problem, people come to flight training naively expecting that when someone says they're "TC approved" means that its also a fair shake. in this case, all that the regulator is supposed to do is make sure no one gets killed while training and that everyone meets a minimal standard at the end to hopefully ensure that they don't get killed after. Its not, nor should it be, within their mandate to make sure you get good value for your dollar.

The Red Bird system of providing unlimited extra training at a fixed cost seems to really put into place what the actual dollar value of sim training in a lot of instances. They're of course banking on the actual airplane training to come through and extra sim to be enough to keep the customer with the warm and fuzzies. If they were counting on tons of sim flying to actually replace in flight training, they'd be having to charge more for it - if they really felt is was of value.

Unfortunately, the possibility of combining sim and in flight training isn't even happening at a lot of schools. Its almost strictly sim training with no in flight, usually until you become "acceptable" in the sim. Which seems bizarre, since there are still schools to start directly with airplanes, I can't see how sim first type of programs sell, unless people just aren't shopping around, or that they swallow a lot of BS about sim training.

Of the most worrisome things I see a lot is how sims are used to teach english, or at least enough that someone thinks a ESL candidate is good enough to turn loose on the unsuspecting public. I'm not sure why this is seemingly only the case with flight training, international students who come to attend post secondary education in other fields almost always in my experience have a way better handle on speaking a second language than aviation candidates. But then, on the list of angry topics, is the farce that has been made of the language proficiency test...
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by sailandfly »

Thank you everyone.. passing on the sim idea..
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by photofly »

Shiny Side Up wrote: Unfortunately, the possibility of combining sim and in flight training isn't even happening at a lot of schools. Its almost strictly sim training with no in flight ...
...
Of the most worrisome things I see a lot is how sims are used to teach english...
Are we to understand that you've made a study of how sims are used across Canada through sampling a sufficiently high number to make a representative sample? So that you're justified in saying what happens at "a lot" of flight schools? Would you care to share your methodology? Sample size? Dates of enquiry?

Specifically, please list this "a lot" of flight schools which are "almost strictly sim training with no in flight"?

Or are you just making up facts to suit your imagination, so that you have something to complain about?

Either way is fine, just be straight with us.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Cat Driver »

I'm with trey and SSU on this one....

....except I would go one step further and advise anyone training for a PPL that if your instructor wants you to take sim training before you learn to fly an airplane well enough to hold the P P L find another instructor.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Shiny Side Up »

photofly wrote:
Shiny Side Up wrote: Unfortunately, the possibility of combining sim and in flight training isn't even happening at a lot of schools. Its almost strictly sim training with no in flight ...
...
Of the most worrisome things I see a lot is how sims are used to teach english...
Are we to understand that you've made a study of how sims are used across Canada through sampling a sufficiently high number to make a representative sample? So that you're justified in saying what happens at "a lot" of flight schools? Would you care to share your methodology? Sample size? Dates of enquiry?

Specifically, please list this "a lot" of flight schools which are "almost strictly sim training with no in flight"?

Or are you just making up facts to suit your imagination, so that you have something to complain about?

Either way is fine, just be straight with us.
You know I can't name names without shutting the thread down, and possibly getting a ban from the site, but I'd be happy to tell you in a PM.

But I'll give you some numbers. These are from students PTRs and Log books I've had a chance to peruse, and my propensity to actually visit flight schools. Last few months I was actually in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and most of my numbers come from western Canada, though I have reason to believe that it is rife through out Canada from the testimony of students (and again PTRs and log books) from Ontario, Quebec and a smattering of FTUs in the maritimes.

So a few numbers for you. From the following provinces I've seen the trend of unusually high sim times being used.

Alberta - 6 schools
Ontario - 4 schools
Quebec - 2 Schools
Manitoba - 2 schools
New Brunswick - 1 school
British Columbia - 2 schools

Naturally I have the most information on schools in Alberta since that's where I primarily operate. I should say that looking into the operations of all the schools mentioned, we're talking operations in the usual size range of a fleet of five to ten aircraft. Given that for Alberta that's about half the schools in the Province. If the rest of Canada is like wise, then that accounts for a substantial amount of the students being trained. For students doing PPL license, you will see often 10-15 hours of Sim time, for CPL students 30-40 hours is typical. The most I have seen that a PPL student had in the Sim was 23 hours, the most a CPL student (not finished I should also say) had 51 hours.

To specify here though as to the trend on this point though:
"almost strictly sim training with no in flight"
What I'm referring to is that students start in the sim, rather than the airplane, and only in some cases progress to the airplane if they "pass" the sim. Occasionally all the initial lessons are done in the sim, and most of the upper air exercises. Spins are frequently only done in the sim - this seemed to be the practice of four schools on the list. No spins listed in air exercises in the PTRs of these students. Something about primacy comes to mind here. Flight training ain't rocket science, I'm not sure why for flight lessons we need such an extensive gatekeeping mechanism before students fly airplanes.

I'll also say that all of these instances have cropped up in the last few years, which of course coincides with the proliferation of a lot of sim hardware. Some schools I had previously seen better product of students, have somewhat diminished their quality.

If you want, just say and I'll give you that list.

Personally I think its a really worrisome trend, I just wish more people would get upset about it.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by stol701 »

I think flight schools that use simulators extensively should start using this: http://www.pilotedge.net (or similar).

It will at least teach you to talk and listen on the radio, which is by itself worth enough. Some people actually spend a lot of real flying hours mostly for the purpose of learning the radio. If you are at least able to read a chart and talk on the radio I think it can provide for a very good "VFR" cross country experience.
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Re: Training in the Red Bird Sim - PPL

Post by Alberta_x51 »

The thought of a Red Bird makes me cringe.
I'd probably go for a WW2 Link for the fun of it.

The way to go is with X-Plane 10. You cannot skimp on the computer
it must be a quad core, i-7 with at least 8Gb ram and a 4Gb video.

To save money start with a AV8R stick and fly that.

Once you pay the fixed cost, you never pay another dollar.
Its available when you are and remarkably realistic.

IT does come with a host of bugs that are being constantly worked on.

If you have an OLD computer you will need to run the old X-Plane 9.

The MS Flight sim while about 8 years older is still a very good tool and
I've got it on my lap top.
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