AC New hires please use your WB bid

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Stan Darsh
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Stan Darsh »

teacher wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:19 am
The reason these WB FO spots are going Junior is lifestyle plain and simple. Junior WB means reserve, no 16 day cap and junior for YEARS. That's why nobody wants it. Nothing to do with pay. Perhaps if it paid more people would take the lifestyle hit for cash but I reiterate, this is a lifestyle issue.
Pretty much. Less than a year seniority as a NB FO and I'm in the top 1/3 at my base which means I pick my days off, OT in the busy season and I can even get certain pairings I want all while capped at 16 days. Sure, I'd love to be flying overseas and I'd be OK with PoR when off the flat pay, but I'm past the age of making lifestyle concessions for the work. We're just playing with the hand we're dealt right now.
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atphat
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by atphat »

I feel bad for the new hires that will be forced to use their WB FO bid in pit while on flat pay. Which will definitely happen eventually if the spots are not filled.

Don’t expect it to change though. Welcome to AC. If you’re junior don’t expect anyone to care about you. Especially your fellow pilots.
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rudder
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by rudder »

tdp19 wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:45 am If Air Canada made Wide Body F/O the same status (get off flat pay) as a narrow body captain they would have no problem crewing the 777/787. To elaborate, if you bid widebody f/o it would get you off of 4 year flat pay just like going captain gets you off flat pay. I KNOW it will never happen because they don't have pay scales for anything year 1-4 other than the god awful flat pay. Would alleviate a lot of their crewing issues on widebody going forward
Apparently new-hire freezes are being lifted in hopes of filling WB vacancies in YVR/YYZ. I am guessing AC is hoping some current type rated RP’s will bid.

As for your suggestion - makes perfect sense. Perhaps go one step further: flat pay limited to either 12 or 24 months.
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mmm..bacon
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by mmm..bacon »

I foresee another line/angle that people could add to their covering letters in their application to AC! 8). “I’d be more than happy to work as a w/b FO were AC to hire me.” Etc...
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by altiplano »

I'm not defending flat pay, or the seniors at the trough, but I think it's important to understand where flat pay came from... it wasn't only selling out the new guys when they did the 4 year pay rate.

It was ACPA Leadership and Negotiation team's tremendous shortsightedness and lack of situational awareness. It is the continuation of ideas that our contact has to be a zero-sum, give-to-get, quid pro quo entity.

When the 4 year pay first came in it was roughly a wash in terms of total/average compensation paid out in the first 4 years.

Everyone joined on 2 year flat pay as an RP or Embraer FO. In years 3 & 4 you went into the "Pay Group", a handful would get out of the PG and onto formula pay on the 320 every bid, but the large majority of 4 year and less were in the PG... the idea of a new hire or junior 777 FO... hadn't ever happened... Wasn't conceivable to ACPA... Junior 767 FO was probably about 10 years seniority, closer to 15 years for junior 777 FO.

ACPA looked at the 2 year flat pay (that was truly flat, about $3000/month, there was no OT pay, no premiums, it was the same amount every month) and traded away year 3 & 4 PG/320 formula pay to raise up the first 2 and open opportunities to earn more, premiums, OT, etc...

Of course the company had the data, they knew the real fleet plans, they knew the crewing projections, they knew the retirements, they knew they would have junior WB FOs within a few years... and this was a big gain for them. But our guys costed it, and traded it away like it was a zero-sum transaction looking at the past and not the future.

That's a trend at ACPA, EVERY TIME they trade something quid-pro-quo, we are made the fools. The company pivots, adjusts, knows the real score and our side of the "gain" is gone, while their benefit multiplies.

Fix 2 year flat by combining it with year 3/4. Gone.
Fix EMJ FO pay by grouping it with RP Formula. Gone.
Fix EMJ CA pay by robbing from WB FO pay. Gone.
Pay cut to get us through CCAA. Gone.
Save the pension by removing indexing. Gone.
Save the pension by paying more. Over funded and still gone.
Rouge 50 fin cap. Gone.
RRA need an Airbus flying. Gone.
Draft pay? Diminished.
Cargojet MOA. Gone and they are still doing the flying.
On and on...

I worry EVERY TIME ACPA gets in a room or box suite at the ACC, sorry Scotia Arena, with company brass...

I hope the attitude changes that we need to give-to-get... We're long overdue for gains across the board in this association.
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teacher
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by teacher »

groundpilot wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:59 am
teacher wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:19 am
tdp19 wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:45 am If Air Canada made Wide Body F/O the same status (get off flat pay) as a narrow body captain they would have no problem crewing the 777/787. To elaborate, if you bid widebody f/o it would get you off of 4 year flat pay just like going captain gets you off flat pay. I KNOW it will never happen because they don't have pay scales for anything year 1-4 other than the god awful flat pay. Would alleviate a lot of their crewing issues on widebody going forward
Why in the world should a WB FO get off flat pay?!?!?! This thought that flying a WB is some how harder and worth more than a narrow body is mind boggling. Less work and more pay. Further more IMHO no WB FO (outside of flat pay) should EVER make more than NB captain of the same seniority. The responsibilities do not compare.

The reason these WB FO spots are going Junior is lifestyle plain and simple. Junior WB means reserve, no 16 day cap and junior for YEARS. That's why nobody wants it. Nothing to do with pay. Perhaps if it paid more people would take the lifestyle hit for cash but I reiterate, this is a lifestyle issue.
While I agree the responsibilities don’t compare, it is comical to think a pilot would defend a 4 years flat pay system. 4 years is a long time.

What is also comical is how when you look at the B777 FO list, that is where you will find the pilots who couldn’t upgrade. Many of these pilots are “special” and probably wouldn’t be my choice for flying my family. But yet they are “entitled “ to top end pay and make more than year 10 Captains on the Embrear, A320 and B737.

The less talented pilots work less to make more. Welcome to cronyism

But hey, keep defending that flat pay pal
My apologies. You may have misinterpreted my post. I'm am in no way defending and DEFINETLY NOT endorsing ANY kind of flat pay. I am against someone getting off it so they fly a WB aircraft. The fact that NB Captains move to WB FO positions because it pays more and is easier is what I was getting at. That should never be the case. The training and responsibilities do not compare.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Ratherbe »

The vacancies on the B777 FO are an anomaly. This has never happened before in over 70 years as far as I know. A slight downturn in our overseas flying will remove it.

The sad reality is that most pilots don’t care enough about how little new hires make. I really think that’s short sighted.

Recessions played a big role in these low wages but things are different, at least for now. Maybe we have an opportunity to fix instead of just complain.

Flat pay does serve a function as it makes pay more fair when new hire courses get assigned different aircraft types. For example, a class might all be assigned A220 positions then the next junior class could be assigned all B737 positions. But 4 years is excessive. Two years is plenty of time and this is what we used to have for FO’s and it worked fine.

Getting rid of the first 2 years of flat pay and then transitioning to year 5 rates in year 3 would help bring the junior guys up a notch. This sort of thing should be done and I think it’s possible if senior and junior pilots stand together.
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Flynavy
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Flynavy »

As soon as the company cannot keep the position freeze, the pay freeze should go away as well. Easy response to the need of the moment without modifying rules in case of a futur downside.
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cloak
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by cloak »

It's amusing that Air Canada pilots showed up in uniform (with company's blessing) to support WestJet pilots and their fight for achieving better pay and working conditions, yet somehow still defend this archaic system of pay, just because they can get away with it!

The problem is not the flat pay, as much as it is the amount being so low. To solve the problem, starting pay needs to be increased at least to low 80s for the first year while on probation, and then formula pay. Any longer flat pay is not really justified.

In addition, Air Canada (and other airlines too) should recognize previous 705 operations experience, or at least a ratio of it (like some U.S carriers). Seniority should be based on DOH for bidding privileges and so on, but pay based on experience. That is the only fair solution worthy of a professional job. Lawyers, doctors, nurses, managers all have that. When a lawyer joins a new firm, s/he doesn't start as a junior paralegal!
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TheStig
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by TheStig »

I haven't heard or read of anyone defending the low hourly starting wages. I agree with everything Ratherbee said; 2 years at fixed rates is long enough and the rates should be over $80/hour to start without question. I know lots of pilots at AC who have earned 6 figures in their second year. This is largely due to the bonus paid based on the airline reaching financial targets, the amount paid is partially paid based on individual earnings and partially paid based on a sum of money divided up equally between pilots. This equalization is a departure from the 'screw the new guy' mentality so many posters seem to believe exists. In the latest contract re-opener great efforts were made to improve the DC pension plan for the benefit of not just new hires but those not yet on the property. Pilots hired since the (re)introduction of 4 years of fixed rates have enjoyed better schedules and pay than those hired before them, specifically those in the mid to late 90's. So feel free to rant away online with whatever you want to believe about how Air Canada's pilots and/or ACPA continue to 'eat their young' or whatever you think you know, but it doesn't seem to be a sentiment shared by those who have joined the airline.

The contract already allows for the company to release pilots from their new hire freeze, there is nothing to negotiate. Pilots were reminded that if they bid these WB positions there is a good chance they will be awarded it. If I was in my 3rd-4th year as an RP I would bid the right seat and double my pay shortly after training, I'm certain none of the pilots soon to be awarded these positions will be crying in their beers (in Mainz or Rome or Sydney) care about what their buddies on the Dash think of their career choices. I'm guilty of doing this as well, but its always amusing how pilots at other carriers always seem to have ideas about to fix issues they see at other airlines.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by groundpilot »

TheStig wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:27 pm I haven't heard or read of anyone defending the low hourly starting wages. I agree with everything Ratherbee said; 2 years at fixed rates is long enough and the rates should be over $80/hour to start without question. I know lots of pilots at AC who have earned 6 figures in their second year. This is largely due to the bonus paid based on the airline reaching financial targets, the amount paid is partially paid based on individual earnings and partially paid based on a sum of money divided up equally between pilots. This equalization is a departure from the 'screw the new guy' mentality so many posters seem to believe exists. In the latest contract re-opener great efforts were made to improve the DC pension plan for the benefit of not just new hires but those not yet on the property. Pilots hired since the (re)introduction of 4 years of fixed rates have enjoyed better schedules and pay than those hired before them, specifically those in the mid to late 90's. So feel free to rant away online with whatever you want to believe about how Air Canada's pilots and/or ACPA continue to 'eat their young' or whatever you think you know, but it doesn't seem to be a sentiment shared by those who have joined the airline.

The contract already allows for the company to release pilots from their new hire freeze, there is nothing to negotiate. Pilots were reminded that if they bid these WB positions there is a good chance they will be awarded it. If I was in my 3rd-4th year as an RP I would bid the right seat and double my pay shortly after training, I'm certain none of the pilots soon to be awarded these positions will be crying in their beers (in Mainz or Rome or Sydney) care about what their buddies on the Dash think of their career choices. I'm guilty of doing this as well, but its always amusing how pilots at other carriers always seem to have ideas about to fix issues they see at other airlines.
Stig,

I have to comment on this statement.

Yes, true, great efforts were made to improve the DC pension.

However - it in the best interests of the entire group for this to occur. The DC pension, which was given a +90% approval in the 10 yrs contract in 2014, is VASTLY inferior to the DB pension. (An actual number would be hard to calculate due to so many variables but I could probably argue at least 70%) A true and absolute "B scale" for the rest of your career & life. You are not bidding out of that one. Conversations in the cockpit about delays and saying "this time is all pensionable" made for awkward moments as this was not true for any pilot post 2012.

The SERP for all DB pilots is still up for negotiations in the future as there is no indexing on the DB pension. With the massive influx of new hires, the ratio of DB vs DC (now CWIPP) is rapidly changing. Probably close to a third of the pilots are now on CWIPP. How do you think future negotiations would go with pilots on very different retirement plans? It will just be a matter of time before CWIPP pilots out number DB pilots and you can bet they will not be open for improving the SERP.

Although Im sure many pilots truly wanted improvements for the DC pilots, ACPA knew that this wasn't a "want" but a "need" and had to show some effort to level the playing field. Sadly, CWIPP is still greatly inferior even though ACPA's sales pitch will tell you otherwise.
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Last edited by groundpilot on Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by groundpilot »

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atphat
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by atphat »

Yes. The new pension is hardly a fix. Not even close to parity with the DB. Those who think the issue is dead will be surprised.

I do not harbour the resentment of some of my colleagues but I’ve heard “wait till we are the majority” more than once.

I believe a storm is coming in time. Unfortunately.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Johnny767 »

A lot of animosity coming from a group that are a part of the best times this industry has seen since the 1960's.

If it was up to me, the starting pay for a new hire Pilot would be 100K / year. The thought that you are earning less than the F/A bringing your coffee, or the rampie loading the baggage, is outrageous. However, it is a long sad story how starting pay has always been sidelined in negotiations. As for the rhetoric of the 777 F/O position being home to a bunch of failed upgrades, is complete B.S. There are a handfull scattered throughout the Airline, one of the most notorious recently got her unplanned early retirement. Everyone knows who they are, they are identifed in the equipment assignment.

As for the veiled threats of sitting next to someone who makes 6 times your pay, what does the junior Lawyer think sitting next to the Managing Partner? I have never seen the industry so full of petty envy, narrow body Pilots upset about flying 16 day blocks. During your interview, if I asked you if you would be happy flying and EMB 16 days a month? I am pretty sure the answer would be a resounding "yes," then join the Airline and do nothing but bitch and moan.


This bid is the start of more problems to come, compounded by the "course rights". The people running the department aren't supid, contrary to the rumours. Certain people will be laying awake at night trying to figure a way out of the Pilot supply (and more importantly experience) problem.


Cheers
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by TheStig »

groundpilot wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:50 pm
The outlook for AC has never been better. I am at 2.5 years seniority, work 9 days a month, never work a weekend unless I want, and have XMas and New Years off this year. I see the world in a modern state of the art machine, have proper crew rest facilities onboard which alleviate fatigue (I literally sleep half my 80 hrs away in the bunk each month), stay in 5 stars hotels, and the only draw back is I am at probably around $80k per year. But that number is only going up, and up quickly. And I have never been based in Toronto.
You can’t have it both ways, all of what you’re seeing develop since the 10 year agreement, the lifestyle you’re enjoying, even your very existence at the airline was because of the changes made in the pension plan.The pension plan had to change, it should have been changed in CCAA, but it didn’t.

The DC plan was forced upon the pilot group in FOS albeit after being negotiated in TA1, but the majority of the pilots you’re harbouring this resentment towards voted against both changes to the pension plan, the 4 years of fixed rates and voted 98% in favour of walking off the job to back it up.

It’s still pensionable time, really even more so for members of the CWIPP. I’ve heard that what the pension was sold as isn’t what we’re getting, but I will admit I don’t know the details because I’m not privy to that information, maybe you can share the shortcomings with us? The numbers I had access to looked favourable compared to my DB plan and I dread the thought of relying on an airline staying in business for the rest of my life to fund my retirement. For that reason and having a unified pilot group I would have gladly traded my plan for yours.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by altiplano »

TheStig wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:34 pm The DC plan was forced upon the pilot group in FOS albeit after being negotiated in TA1, but the majority of the pilots you’re harbouring this resentment towards voted against both changes to the pension plan, the 4 years of fixed rates and voted 98% in favour of walking off the job to back it up.

It’s still pensionable time, really even more so for members of the CWIPP. I’ve heard that what the pension was sold as isn’t what we’re getting, but I will admit I don’t know the details because I’m not privy to that information, maybe you can share the shortcomings with us? The numbers I had access to looked favourable compared to my DB plan and I dread the thought of relying on an airline staying in business for the rest of my life to fund my retirement. For that reason and having a unified pilot group I would have gladly traded my plan for yours.
I think the TBP is overall a very good plan in that it will shelter taxes above the CRA contribution limits, and provide a life long benefit.

I think the problem though was how hard it was sold to us vs. being presented objectively, and how much we paid to get it (LCC expansion, RRA expansion) is out of sight.

Further, our members pay 25% more (7.5% vs. 6% in the old DC) and until a member is well beyond the CRA RRSP contribution limit the corp is actually paying less than they were on the old plan. So basically until they are a 320 Captain or better, this is cheaper for the company.

I think we pay too much for both our plans month in, month out... IMO we should be shooting for 100% corporate paid. something like what United or Delta does... Cut me a cheque for 18% of what I make every month, I'll manage it myself.
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cloak
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by cloak »

Regardless of how good or bad the new pension is, there is the immediate challenge of maintaining one's life style and paying the bills upon joining and surviving the flat pay for f..o..u..r l..o..n..g years!!! If Air Canada can't or doesn't want to increase the starting pay but would like to attract some more experienced pilots as well, one creative way would be to recognize and give credit for previous 705 operations. Seniority based on date of hire, pay and benefits based on experience.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by atphat »

cloak wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:17 am Regardless of how good or bad the new pension is, there is the immediate challenge of maintaining one's life style and paying the bills upon joining and surviving the flat pay for f..o..u..r l..o..n..g years!!! If Air Canada can't or doesn't want to increase the starting pay but would like to attract some more experienced pilots as well, one creative way would be to recognize and give credit for previous 705 operations. Seniority based on date of hire, pay and benefits based on experience.
That will never happen. AC has no trouble filling ground schools.

If the positions go unbid, they will just be assigned to new hires.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

Dry Guy wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:28 am The baby boomer generation screwed the younger generations in so many ways. Situations like this are not unique to Air Canada.

I wonder what it will be like sharing the flight deck and swapping legs with someone that makes 6 six times as much as you and owns multiple properties and luxury vehicles while you rent someone's basement and take the bus to work.
You are an idiot if you can't at least own a small condo and a car if you make at least 50k. People always want to go for the newest Audi and the brand new 350k condo with heated fucking staricase handles and Picasso paintings on the wall. As a pilot you should excel at planning. Hint hint...... finances also require meticulous planning. Anything is doable if you put your mind and effort into it.

I bet you spend all your money on the latest Gayphone 69 and weekly nights of binge drinking with your lower class friend who work at X call center making 16$/hr and still pay 60$ a month to play Call of Duty online.....

Hope I'm not being to harsh but I'm just trying to illustrate a point. I'm sure our forefathers started slow and progressed up.


DO NOT GET ME WRONG! I FULLY AGREE THAT WAGES AND WORKING CONDITIONS MUST BE IMMEDIATELY CORRECTED TO INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Tail-Chaser »

Yep. Just gotta give up the avocado toast and I'll be a home owner in one of the most expensive cities in the world in no time :roll:
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