AC New hires please use your WB bid

[Lightchop]

The baby boomer generation screwed the younger generations in so many ways. Situations like this are not unique to Air Canada.

I wonder what it will be like sharing the flight deck and swapping legs with someone that makes 6 six times as much as you and owns multiple properties and luxury vehicles while you rent someone's basement and take the bus to work.

You are an idiot if you can't at least own a small condo and a car if you make at least 50k. People always want to go for the newest Audi and the brand new 350k condo with heated fucking staricase handles and Picasso paintings on the wall. As a pilot you should excel at planning. Hint hint...... finances also require meticulous planning. Anything is doable if you put your mind and effort into it.

I bet you spend all your money on the latest Gayphone 69 and weekly nights of binge drinking with your lower class friend who work at X call center making 16$/hr and still pay 60$ a month to play Call of Duty online.....

Hope I'm not being to harsh but I'm just trying to illustrate a point. I'm sure our forefathers started slow and progressed up.


DO NOT GET ME WRONG! I FULLY AGREE THAT WAGES AND WORKING CONDITIONS MUST BE IMMEDIATELY CORRECTED TO INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS.

Hey can you direct me to those sweet sweet 250k condos anywhere near YVR?

Thanks.

[DanWEC]

The baby boomer generation screwed the younger generations in so many ways. Situations like this are not unique to Air Canada.

I wonder what it will be like sharing the flight deck and swapping legs with someone that makes 6 six times as much as you and owns multiple properties and luxury vehicles while you rent someone's basement and take the bus to work.

You are an idiot if you can't at least own a small condo and a car if you make at least 50k. People always want to go for the newest Audi and the brand new 350k condo with heated fucking staricase handles and Picasso paintings on the wall. As a pilot you should excel at planning. Hint hint...... finances also require meticulous planning. Anything is doable if you put your mind and effort into it.

I bet you spend all your money on the latest Gayphone 69 and weekly nights of binge drinking with your lower class friend who work at X call center making 16$/hr and still pay 60$ a month to play Call of Duty online.....

Hope I'm not being to harsh but I'm just trying to illustrate a point. I'm sure our forefathers started slow and progressed up.


DO NOT GET ME WRONG! I FULLY AGREE THAT WAGES AND WORKING CONDITIONS MUST BE IMMEDIATELY CORRECTED TO INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS.

You should probably get your water tested.

[Observer]

The DC plan was forced upon the pilot group in FOS albeit after being negotiated in TA1, but the majority of the pilots you’re harbouring this resentment towards voted against both changes to the pension plan, the 4 years of fixed rates and voted 98% in favour of walking off the job to back it up.

It’s still pensionable time, really even more so for members of the CWIPP. I’ve heard that what the pension was sold as isn’t what we’re getting, but I will admit I don’t know the details because I’m not privy to that information, maybe you can share the shortcomings with us? The numbers I had access to looked favourable compared to my DB plan and I dread the thought of relying on an airline staying in business for the rest of my life to fund my retirement. For that reason and having a unified pilot group I would have gladly traded my plan for yours.

I think the TBP is overall a very good plan in that it will shelter taxes above the CRA contribution limits, and provide a life long benefit.

I think the problem though was how hard it was sold to us vs. being presented objectively, and how much we paid to get it (LCC expansion, RRA expansion) is out of sight.

Further, our members pay 25% more (7.5% vs. 6% in the old DC) and until a member is well beyond the CRA RRSP contribution limit the corp is actually paying less than they were on the old plan. So basically until they are a 320 Captain or better, this is cheaper for the company.

I think we pay too much for both our plans month in, month out... IMO we should be shooting for 100% corporate paid. something like what United or Delta does... Cut me a cheque for 18% of what I make every month, I'll manage it myself.

Well...I know I heard dire warnings (mostly from DB members) during ratification that the ACrouge NB fleet would double in size if we exchanged ratioed growth for the new pension plan. But so far I've seen 1 x A321 added to do Caribbean flying against AT and Sunwing, and 2 x A319 to fly the YYZ-YQB routes previously flown by the connectors. I might be missing something here, and I'll admit that I'm not the best at reading fleet plans. But to add to this, the Company seems to be on pause for any expansion for the time being.

As far as Company contributions to the new pension plan and your claim that it is "cheaper for the Company", that's not what I read. Company contributions are the same percentage of income as the old DC plan, according to the contract. I confirmed this from a 2017 NC newsletter as well.

less than 2 years: Company 6%
3-5 years: Company 8.25%
more than 5 years: Company 10.5%

Those are exactly the same Company contributions under the CWIPP plan as under the DC plan, except now contributions continue above the old tax limits. I don't know where you get that it's cheaper for the Company.

In talking to some of our newest NB Captains hired in 2012, they have already received $10 000 more in contributions in 2018 from the Company under CWIPP (includes retroactive activation paid in 2018 for their upgrade to A320 CA awarded more than a year ago). So some of the benefits of CWIPP are being seen right now. The proof will be in the next few years to see how the plan performs and if benefits are kept stable, raised or lowered. Time will tell.

It is true that members now contribute 7.5% after 2 years, instead of 6% under the old DC plan.

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

The baby boomer generation screwed the younger generations in so many ways. Situations like this are not unique to Air Canada.

I wonder what it will be like sharing the flight deck and swapping legs with someone that makes 6 six times as much as you and owns multiple properties and luxury vehicles while you rent someone's basement and take the bus to work.

You are an idiot if you can't at least own a small condo and a car if you make at least 50k. People always want to go for the newest Audi and the brand new 350k condo with heated fucking staricase handles and Picasso paintings on the wall. As a pilot you should excel at planning. Hint hint...... finances also require meticulous planning. Anything is doable if you put your mind and effort into it.

I bet you spend all your money on the latest Gayphone 69 and weekly nights of binge drinking with your lower class friend who work at X call center making 16$/hr and still pay 60$ a month to play Call of Duty online.....

Hope I'm not being to harsh but I'm just trying to illustrate a point. I'm sure our forefathers started slow and progressed up.


DO NOT GET ME WRONG! I FULLY AGREE THAT WAGES AND WORKING CONDITIONS MUST BE IMMEDIATELY CORRECTED TO INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS.

Hey can you direct me to those sweet sweet 250k condos anywhere near YVR?

Thanks.

Again why do people want to live directly in Downtown YVR YYZ YUL YYC. This going back to my initial point. Start from the beginning....Aka move out from the city. 1 to 1.5 hour drive and you will see how the prices of real estate will drop. Commute from a smaller city. Any arguments against what I said can be met by a solution. Start small, buy a small place, BUILD EQUITY. When you get CA salary of 125k++ you will have an existing "cheap" property, previous knowledge on how real estate works from your previous buy and the cash available from the sale of your old place to upgrade to a place in your dream place in YYZ where the prices are ridiculous people are rude and there is traffic 24/7.....sounds like fun.

[Lightchop]

You are an idiot if you can't at least own a small condo and a car if you make at least 50k. People always want to go for the newest Audi and the brand new 350k condo with heated fucking staricase handles and Picasso paintings on the wall. As a pilot you should excel at planning. Hint hint...... finances also require meticulous planning. Anything is doable if you put your mind and effort into it.

I bet you spend all your money on the latest Gayphone 69 and weekly nights of binge drinking with your lower class friend who work at X call center making 16$/hr and still pay 60$ a month to play Call of Duty online.....

Hope I'm not being to harsh but I'm just trying to illustrate a point. I'm sure our forefathers started slow and progressed up.


DO NOT GET ME WRONG! I FULLY AGREE THAT WAGES AND WORKING CONDITIONS MUST BE IMMEDIATELY CORRECTED TO INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS.

Hey can you direct me to those sweet sweet 250k condos anywhere near YVR?

Thanks.

Again why do people want to live directly in Downtown YVR YYZ YUL YYC. This going back to my initial point. Start from the beginning....Aka move out from the city. 1 to 1.5 hour drive and you will see how the prices of real estate will drop. Commute from a smaller city. Any arguments against what I said can be met by a solution. Start small, buy a small place, BUILD EQUITY. When you get CA salary of 125k++ you will have an existing "cheap" property, previous knowledge on how real estate works from your previous buy and the cash available from the sale of your old place to upgrade to a place in your dream place in YYZ where the prices are ridiculous people are rude and there is traffic 24/7.....sounds like fun.

I'm not talking about downtown. I'm not even talking Richmond, Surrey.. Even Langley is a stretch for under $400k now.

[altiplano]

We're only 15 months... Already 3 more? and at least 2 more next year I think in the fleet plan... and all the EMJs going, when we were sold the deal we were told they didn't expect AC to be able to add to the LCC under the ratio until 2020 and there were no plans to get rid of the EMJ...

Would double? Or could double? It could double that's for sure... Include the rra and it could triple...
Straight from our new YVR VC, then NC chair, was they expected at least 25 319s under RRA, now they can use those on LCC routes too with the recent MOA...

In talking to some of our newest NB Captains hired in 2012, they have already received $10 000 more in contributions in 2018 from the Company under CWIPP

Because they are making like $100,000 more. Or maybe they weren't doing maximum contribution on the DC to maximize their match under the old plan...

As I said the real benefit isn't achieved until you hit/surpass 320/737 Captain pay levels and are above the CRA limit... So far that's only a handful of members...

So why were we in such a rush? Had to guarantee the TBP in 2017 they said... vs. take guaranteed gains in arbitration, possibly even TBP - recall that those gains were already agreed to happen - and then if required go the rest of the way in the next reopener, in arbitration as needed? Would have been real gains and we'd still have the rouge cap... What else could we have got for that? It's worth an awful lot...

Anyway, I agree that time will tell...

[altiplano]

Hey can you direct me to those sweet sweet 250k condos anywhere near YVR?

Thanks.

Again why do people want to live directly in Downtown YVR YYZ YUL YYC. This going back to my initial point. Start from the beginning....Aka move out from the city. 1 to 1.5 hour drive and you will see how the prices of real estate will drop. Commute from a smaller city. Any arguments against what I said can be met by a solution. Start small, buy a small place, BUILD EQUITY. When you get CA salary of 125k++ you will have an existing "cheap" property, previous knowledge on how real estate works from your previous buy and the cash available from the sale of your old place to upgrade to a place in your dream place in YYZ where the prices are ridiculous people are rude and there is traffic 24/7.....sounds like fun.

I'm not talking about downtown. I'm not even talking Richmond, Surrey.. Even Langley is a stretch for under $400k now.

Vancouver and the Lower Mainland is out of sight.

It doesn't reflect economic reality. Best thing you could do is move to a different base.

[Inverted2]

You’re kind of damned if you do, damned if you don’t now with regards to where you live. If you live in a large city where you’re based you’re faced with sky high housing prices, and if you live 1-2 hours out, you’re faced with cheaper housing but a miserable commute.

From someone who has been commuting on the 401 for 15 years. It gets worse every time I go to work.

[Observer]

In talking to some of our newest NB Captains hired in 2012, they have already received $10 000 more in contributions in 2018 from the Company under CWIPP

Because they are making like $100,000 more. Or maybe they weren't doing maximum contribution on the DC to maximize their match under the old plan...

As I said the real benefit isn't achieved until you hit/surpass 320/737 Captain pay levels and are above the CRA limit... So far that's only a handful of members...

So why were we in such a rush? Had to guarantee the TBP in 2017 they said... vs. take guaranteed gains in arbitration, possibly even TBP - recall that those gains were already agreed to happen - and then if required go the rest of the way in the next reopener, in arbitration as needed? Would have been real gains and we'd still have the rouge cap... What else could we have got for that? It's worth an awful lot...

Anyway, I agree that time will tell...

I should have been more clear. These guys will have pensionable earnings exceeding $250 000 this year, when you include their lump sum activation back pay. Under the old DC plan, the Company's contributions would max out at $16 000 regardless of earnings. These guys will get over $26 000 in contributions from the Company this year. The reason for that is the exemption on contribution limits that CWIPP members have.

A handful of members? Well, there were already 150 CWIPP members showing NB Captain on 18-03, so probably a few dozen more on this latest bid. I would say close to 200 members is more than a handful.

Maybe we could have achieved CWIPP in arbitration, maybe not. The possibility of not achieving it in arbitration was real and was a big concern of our advisors, the MEC and the NC. And in talking to a member of the NC at a recent LEC meeting, had we not secured CWIPP in arbitration last year, it would be gone now. Shortly after ACPA ratified in August, 2017, the Westjet pilots asked to join CWIPP and they were told, "Sorry, we're only accepting one federal group." Transat pilots got the same answer the next month. So I do believe that there was time pressure to secure this option, despite the fact of having read on this forum, from you:

"of course CWIPP will be available, they are actively seeking additional groups to join - what fund doesn't want $millions more to manage?"

[altiplano]

I get it... You still believe everything your representatives tell you.

http://www.cwipp.ca/about_why_join.aspx

Participation in CWIPP is open to any employer who has a collective bargaining agreement with a CLC-affiliated union.

http://www.alpa.org/en/about-alpa/what- ... filiations

In Canada, ALPA is affiliated with the Canadian Labour Congress (CLC), which represents more than 3.3 million unionized Canadian workers.

[Observer]

I get it... You still believe everything your representatives tell you.

http://www.cwipp.ca/about_why_join.aspx

Participation in CWIPP is open to any employer who has a collective bargaining agreement with a CLC-affiliated union.

http://www.alpa.org/en/about-alpa/what- ... filiations

In Canada, ALPA is affiliated with the Canadian Labour Congress (CLC), which represents more than 3.3 million unionized Canadian workers.

Dang...You got me. You need to send this to the Westjet and Transat pilots, and then they can show it to the CWIPP Board of Trustees and say, "But your website says you have to let us in!"

Actually, there's a lot more to this than what you've written there. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you didn't read the various NC and PC newsletters that explained the issue. Or that you didn't email an ACPA committee member to ask them directly. Or phone CWIPP, or a member of the WJ bargaining committee to ask them directly.

CWIPP has over 80 member groups spread across Canada with over 5000 active members. Up until last summer, all of these groups were in provincially regulated industries: automotive, manufacturing, nursing homes, etc. Over 3500 of theses active members are Ontario based, so that is the jurisdiction that governs the plan for all members, regardless of where they live and work. Ontario has favourable funding rules that give the CWIPP plan an exemption from 'solvency funding', which I don't really understand but apparently solvency funding is a lot stricter than the other funding rules that CWIPP is allowed to use. When ACPA joined, they became the first federally regulated group in the plan. We will add thousands of members, and in 15-20 years will probably outnumber the Ontario members (3500+). When this happens, the jurisdiction will become federal for all members in the plan and they will have to adopt solvency funding rules. This was a big concern for the Trustees, but they allowed it because over the next 15 years they expect the federal rules to be improved. So they agreed to let ACPA join CWIPP, but also stated that they would close the doors to any other federal groups until the federal funding rules improved, this was done to give them time.

So back to the point, yes, I believed it when our reps said that CWIPP was available to us in the fall of 2017, but might not be at a later date. This has proven to be true, and if you don't believe it, then phone a WJ or AT bargaining rep, or phone CWIPP yourself to ask. But don't believe anything they tell you, especially if they all tell you the same thing! That's proof they're all in on the 'burning platform' conspiracy. Keep digging!

[altiplano]

Lol...

They set up that burning platform real well for you...

You're still believing "Mea-culpa-MH" PC newsletters at face value?

Or the not-so-solid-language-need-an-MOA NC?

I once trusted and believed my reps too, so I understand where you're at...

Hoping for the best though! Fingers crossed that the feds don't change those caps on us...

[Old fella]

I haven't heard or read of anyone defending the low hourly starting wages. I agree with everything Ratherbee said; 2 years at fixed rates is long enough and the rates should be over $80/hour to start without question. I know lots of pilots at AC who have earned 6 figures in their second year. This is largely due to the bonus paid based on the airline reaching financial targets, the amount paid is partially paid based on individual earnings and partially paid based on a sum of money divided up equally between pilots. This equalization is a departure from the 'screw the new guy' mentality so many posters seem to believe exists. In the latest contract re-opener great efforts were made to improve the DC pension plan for the benefit of not just new hires but those not yet on the property. Pilots hired since the (re)introduction of 4 years of fixed rates have enjoyed better schedules and pay than those hired before them, specifically those in the mid to late 90's. So feel free to rant away online with whatever you want to believe about how Air Canada's pilots and/or ACPA continue to 'eat their young' or whatever you think you know, but it doesn't seem to be a sentiment shared by those who have joined the airline.

The contract already allows for the company to release pilots from their new hire freeze, there is nothing to negotiate. Pilots were reminded that if they bid these WB positions there is a good chance they will be awarded it. If I was in my 3rd-4th year as an RP I would bid the right seat and double my pay shortly after training, I'm certain none of the pilots soon to be awarded these positions will be crying in their beers (in Mainz or Rome or Sydney) care about what their buddies on the Dash think of their career choices. I'm guilty of doing this as well, but its always amusing how pilots at other carriers always seem to have ideas about to fix issues they see at other airlines.

Pardon my ignorance on things AC but I thought B777 FO positions would be quite a sweet spot to aspire to. Why the so many vacancies, if I am reading this thread correctly.

[Sharklasers]

[quote=TheStig post_id=<a href="tel:1062317">1062317</a> time=<a href="tel:1544902062">1544902062</a> user_id=36317]
I haven't heard or read of anyone defending the low hourly starting wages. I agree with everything Ratherbee said; 2 years at fixed rates is long enough and the rates should be over $80/hour to start without question. I know lots of pilots at AC who have earned 6 figures in their second year. This is largely due to the bonus paid based on the airline reaching financial targets, the amount paid is partially paid based on individual earnings and partially paid based on a sum of money divided up equally between pilots. This equalization is a departure from the 'screw the new guy' mentality so many posters seem to believe exists. In the latest contract re-opener great efforts were made to improve the DC pension plan for the benefit of not just new hires but those not yet on the property. Pilots hired since the (re)introduction of 4 years of fixed rates have enjoyed better schedules and pay than those hired before them, specifically those in the mid to late 90's. So feel free to rant away online with whatever you want to believe about how Air Canada's pilots and/or ACPA continue to 'eat their young' or whatever you think you know, but it doesn't seem to be a sentiment shared by those who have joined the airline.

The contract already allows for the company to release pilots from their new hire freeze, there is nothing to negotiate. Pilots were reminded that if they bid these WB positions there is a good chance they will be awarded it. If I was in my 3rd-4th year as an RP I would bid the right seat and double my pay shortly after training, I'm certain none of the pilots soon to be awarded these positions will be crying in their beers (in Mainz or Rome or Sydney) care about what their buddies on the Dash think of their career choices. I'm guilty of doing this as well, but its always amusing how pilots at other carriers always seem to have ideas about to fix issues they see at other airlines.

Pardon my ignorance on things AC but I thought B777 FO positions would be quite a sweet spot to aspire to. Why the so many vacancies, if I am reading this thread correctly.
[/quote]


About 1100 pilots that are eligible to bid the 777/787 FO spots are locked into flat pay or have already bid Jr NB captain to escape it. Thus there is no real point in bidding a WB FO and essentially welding yourself to the bottom of the list for the foreseeable future as those 1100 pilots graduate to year 5, off flat pay and parachute in ahead of you. You will work a lot harder with less control of your schedule and be on reserve for no more money than a RP or sr NB FO.

[Old fella]

[quote=TheStig post_id=<a href="tel:1062317">1062317</a> time=<a href="tel:1544902062">1544902062</a> user_id=36317]
I haven't heard or read of anyone defending the low hourly starting wages. I agree with everything Ratherbee said; 2 years at fixed rates is long enough and the rates should be over $80/hour to start without question. I know lots of pilots at AC who have earned 6 figures in their second year. This is largely due to the bonus paid based on the airline reaching financial targets, the amount paid is partially paid based on individual earnings and partially paid based on a sum of money divided up equally between pilots. This equalization is a departure from the 'screw the new guy' mentality so many posters seem to believe exists. In the latest contract re-opener great efforts were made to improve the DC pension plan for the benefit of not just new hires but those not yet on the property. Pilots hired since the (re)introduction of 4 years of fixed rates have enjoyed better schedules and pay than those hired before them, specifically those in the mid to late 90's. So feel free to rant away online with whatever you want to believe about how Air Canada's pilots and/or ACPA continue to 'eat their young' or whatever you think you know, but it doesn't seem to be a sentiment shared by those who have joined the airline.

The contract already allows for the company to release pilots from their new hire freeze, there is nothing to negotiate. Pilots were reminded that if they bid these WB positions there is a good chance they will be awarded it. If I was in my 3rd-4th year as an RP I would bid the right seat and double my pay shortly after training, I'm certain none of the pilots soon to be awarded these positions will be crying in their beers (in Mainz or Rome or Sydney) care about what their buddies on the Dash think of their career choices. I'm guilty of doing this as well, but its always amusing how pilots at other carriers always seem to have ideas about to fix issues they see at other airlines.

Pardon my ignorance on things AC but I thought B777 FO positions would be quite a sweet spot to aspire to. Why the so many vacancies, if I am reading this thread correctly.

About 1100 pilots that are eligible to bid the 777/787 FO spots are locked into flat pay or have already bid Jr NB captain to escape it. Thus there is no real point in bidding a WB FO and essentially welding yourself to the bottom of the list for the foreseeable future as those 1100 pilots graduate to year 5, off flat pay and parachute in ahead of you. You will work a lot harder with less control of your schedule and be on reserve for no more money than a RP or sr NB FO.
[/quote]

Ok think I have the AC picture, it is a four year flat pay issue in which you get the same basic salary for that time as a new hire no matter the assigned equipment at time of first appearance on the property. Only way out during that period is to get a junior NB Captain assignment. That correct?

[Tail-Chaser]

[quote=TheStig post_id=<a href="tel:1062317">1062317</a> time=<a href="tel:1544902062">1544902062</a> user_id=36317]
I haven't heard or read of anyone defending the low hourly starting wages. I agree with everything Ratherbee said; 2 years at fixed rates is long enough and the rates should be over $80/hour to start without question. I know lots of pilots at AC who have earned 6 figures in their second year. This is largely due to the bonus paid based on the airline reaching financial targets, the amount paid is partially paid based on individual earnings and partially paid based on a sum of money divided up equally between pilots. This equalization is a departure from the 'screw the new guy' mentality so many posters seem to believe exists. In the latest contract re-opener great efforts were made to improve the DC pension plan for the benefit of not just new hires but those not yet on the property. Pilots hired since the (re)introduction of 4 years of fixed rates have enjoyed better schedules and pay than those hired before them, specifically those in the mid to late 90's. So feel free to rant away online with whatever you want to believe about how Air Canada's pilots and/or ACPA continue to 'eat their young' or whatever you think you know, but it doesn't seem to be a sentiment shared by those who have joined the airline.

The contract already allows for the company to release pilots from their new hire freeze, there is nothing to negotiate. Pilots were reminded that if they bid these WB positions there is a good chance they will be awarded it. If I was in my 3rd-4th year as an RP I would bid the right seat and double my pay shortly after training, I'm certain none of the pilots soon to be awarded these positions will be crying in their beers (in Mainz or Rome or Sydney) care about what their buddies on the Dash think of their career choices. I'm guilty of doing this as well, but its always amusing how pilots at other carriers always seem to have ideas about to fix issues they see at other airlines.

Pardon my ignorance on things AC but I thought B777 FO positions would be quite a sweet spot to aspire to. Why the so many vacancies, if I am reading this thread correctly.

About 1100 pilots that are eligible to bid the 777/787 FO spots are locked into flat pay or have already bid Jr NB captain to escape it. Thus there is no real point in bidding a WB FO and essentially welding yourself to the bottom of the list for the foreseeable future as those 1100 pilots graduate to year 5, off flat pay and parachute in ahead of you. You will work a lot harder with less control of your schedule and be on reserve for no more money than a RP or sr NB FO.

Ok think I have the AC picture, it is a four year flat pay issue in which you get the same basic salary for that time as a new hire no matter the assigned equipment at time of first appearance on the property. Only way out during that period is to get a junior NB Captain assignment. That correct?
[/quote]

Nailed it, though any captain position will do the trick.

[Old fella]

Yikes, four years is one hell of a long time to be stuck at basic pay. Then again as someone pointed out, AC doesn’t seem to have much if any difficulty attracting guys/gals to their property.

[HpLpFeather]

After sparking a decent discussion let me add my two cents coming from someone with 9 years in the industry and less than a year at mainline. Feel free to comment on how I think.

To where I'm coming from : All of my decisions in my career so far have been learning from others career mistakes. eg. if you want to go to big red, live like a 703 FO while making 705 captains wage. (not always possible but one can try) Ive paid my dues working up north soaked in diesel (5 years), worked at the regionals (3 years) and now at ac. I commute about and hour away from yyz and will never aspire to move closer. I rent cheap and save lots. I drive a 2007 Toyota. Happily in my 1st marriage. 3 months away from being completely debt free. My RRSP has 25k in it which is the max you can put down on a first house.( we've been outbid on 4 houses and I refuse to pay 70% of my take home salary to a mortgage and im happy not owning a house because of this) Ive never been laid off and had ample job opportunities. Im very FORTUNATE to be in this position as Ive heard all the stories from the Pilots of the 2000-2008 era.

How new hires bid.

1.Bid anything to get to home base. (for the YUL YVR guys)

2. Anything rouge. 67 being the best option for a new hire 319 comes second. WHY? because your capped at 16 days a month, have socialized bidding no reserve and lots of opportunity to make some OT.

3. 320 Mainline and then bidding over to rouge asap.

4. 320/737 mainline and staying there as there will be people junior to you in the coming months. only a few months of reserve.

5. RP if you want to see the world and learn the WB lifestyle and you can afford flap pay. also a good option if your like me and want to be paid according to your work.

If you want it all go to rouge and work in the training department.

This is how I would bid being a new hire WITH options on flat pay. make money at rouge. get off flat pay. bid mainline 320 and sit reserve until you can hold 319 rouge capt and then sit pretty. After that you can bid the lifestyle you've worked hard to earn for the rest of your career.

For all the pension people. From what Ive seen now I'll be happy to retire on the generous pension that I've calculated on the ACPA website at 60 or 65.

Now flat pay has to change and I can assure you for the rest of my career I will continue to support raising the bar for our entire industry even if it means making a little bit less ( 20 years down the road) to make a HUGE chunk of pilots at the company a little happier. For those of you that don't know, 55% of the entire pilot group at AC has less than 7 years at the company I think this number alone is proof that times are changing.They're not all millennials but I'm sure in due time a lot of them will be, and millennials like to do what's right.(although some are entitled pieces of shit that don't deserve left seat of anything) Im constantly reminded that its been since the 60's that we've seen this kind of movement but its still way different now. we have movement, fleet growth, and profitability. Look at the last 3 years at AC financials and compare it to history and you'll see that it's never been quite like this. so NOW is the time to push for the better. NO more give and take in contract negotiations. keep the surveys coming and see how the pilot group really thinks. I would be happy with 80$ an hour flat pay for the first 12-24 months... NOT 48 months.

after all this said. I will not give up my FO WB course with less than 5 years at the company. I would also feel bad for the WB captains I would be flying with immediately after my line check having no company experience and 50 hours of overseas flying combine that with a 1 year RP and you have almost a single pilot 777. Not fun for a bitter 60 year old.

If there's a big economic crisis or the US opens up to letting us fly their planes we or AC could be in trouble. combine that with the new passenger bill of rights and duty regulations and this might just be the right time to start making some big moves ACPA.

DISLAIMER:

Everything I just mentioned about being happy where Im at and pay is based on having no more than 1 marriage.

Save the entitlement comments. Im just playing the cards Im delt. I think everyone needs to understand that times have NEVER been like this.

[Old fella]

....Feather.

Nicely put together dissertation, I have to say. As a non airline pilot and old guy(69 and not bitter) let me say that in the course of a lifetime you will be blindsided on some Thursday afternoon by an unforeseen situation. It has happened to us all. Also not mentioned in your preamble but most important is health, rest is secondary and recoverable. Look after your health and that of your family as there isn’t much I haven’t seen in that regard notably those who retired and never got beyond their first year. So sad!

Cheers.

[skypirate88]

Looks like the YYZ 77 and 87 spots went unfilled. Very interesting times around here.