Air Canada Pay

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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:12 am

.

The goal of editing my posts is to allow this thread to return to some form of discussion regarding Air Canada pay, versus Corporate vs Air Canada, in the hopes of halting the circular arguments.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by '97 Tercel » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:12 pm

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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by Ki-ll » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:25 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:12 am
.

The goal of editing my posts is to allow this thread to return to some form of discussion regarding Air Canada pay, versus Corporate vs Air Canada, in the hopes of halting the circular arguments.
That's too bad. It was a very interesting insight even though some people disagreed.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:53 pm

Ki-ll wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:25 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:12 am
.

The goal of editing my posts is to allow this thread to return to some form of discussion regarding Air Canada pay, versus Corporate vs Air Canada, in the hopes of halting the circular arguments.
That's too bad. It was a very interesting insight even though some people disagreed.
Still lots of good insight to be had. Danield had a good post early on, and altiplano made some good points regarding benefit package changes over the last 7 years.

The point that the OP made was 4 year pay should be addressed.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by metalbusdriver » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:13 pm

I would be curious to know what the average Year 1 New Hire t4 would be. We know the pay rate per month and hourly rate curious how much they are actually flying in a block since they are so short. Sometimes hourly pay rate can be deceiving one way or another.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by TheStig » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:57 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:53 pm
The point that the OP made was 4 year pay should be addressed.
Just food for thought, what do you think would be most beneficial to new hire pilots at AC, a $20/hour bump to each of the first 4 years on the pay scale or a $20/bump to the top year (year 12)?
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:12 am

Each of the first 4 years of course.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by AOW » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:00 am

metalbusdriver wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:13 pm
I would be curious to know what the average Year 1 New Hire t4 would be. We know the pay rate per month and hourly rate curious how much they are actually flying in a block since they are so short. Sometimes hourly pay rate can be deceiving one way or another.
T4 covering 10 months as 1st yr FO (YYZ 320)
FCA5442F-F7E7-4EBA-8D0D-8F2C760543E3.jpeg
FCA5442F-F7E7-4EBA-8D0D-8F2C760543E3.jpeg (379.1 KiB) Viewed 2198 times
Final paystub of 2018:
25A54E9F-2B8E-4544-B562-F9A3434425D6.jpeg
25A54E9F-2B8E-4544-B562-F9A3434425D6.jpeg (534.77 KiB) Viewed 2198 times
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by bearitus » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:18 am

That's actually better than I expected. As someone hopefully moving to AC next year from left seat at Express I will have to work a bunch of overtime to make ends meet and pay my mortgage. Is 75-80k a year gross do-able for a first year AC FO with max overtime or am I dreaming?
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by FighterPilot » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:45 am

bearitus wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:18 am
Is 75-80k a year gross do-able for a first year AC FO with max overtime or am I dreaming?
If you get on with Rouge and pick up a draft trip only once a month that would be very easy to do. Picking up a LAS turn at first year pay gets you just shy of $800 before tax. The whole OT thing is likely going to change at Rouge with the new duty rules and make it harder to pick up draft. That being said, you shouldn’t have to pick up OT to make a living wage.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by bearitus » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:07 am

FighterPilot wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:45 am
bearitus wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:18 am
Is 75-80k a year gross do-able for a first year AC FO with max overtime or am I dreaming?
If you get on with Rouge and pick up a draft trip only once a month that would be very easy to do. Picking up a LAS turn at first year pay gets you just shy of $800 before tax. The whole OT thing is likely going to change at Rouge with the new duty rules and make it harder to pick up draft. That being said, you shouldn’t have to pick up OT to make a living wage.
Thanks for the info. The way I see it is short term pain for long term gain.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:23 pm

TheStig wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:57 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:53 pm
The point that the OP made was 4 year pay should be addressed.
Just food for thought, what do you think would be most beneficial to new hire pilots at AC, a $20/hour bump to each of the first 4 years on the pay scale or a $20/bump to the top year (year 12)?
Considering top earners are making north of 300k, I don't think a 20/hr bump will make much difference to them at all, particularly when they have pick of the litter for OT and can earn significantly more going that route.

Getting rid of 3 of those years and adding 20/hr to year 4 would bring starting wages closer to where they should be, and have a greater effect on moral, IMHO.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by TheStig » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:59 pm

So if you were offered a) $20000 a year for four years or b) $20000 a year in eleven years for the rest of your career you would select a)?

Just highlighting the reality that every pilot is better off when the top of the pay scale is improved. When you consider that majority of the pilot group lives on the 12th year of the pay scale its easy to see why the disparity exists.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by rudder » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:16 pm

One word - demographics.

As the demographics of the AC pilot population change so will priorities.

There may be a logic in certain allocations, but it will be the majority in the demographic that will make the final decision.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:49 pm

TheStig wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:59 pm
So if you were offered a) $20000 a year for four years or b) $20000 a year in eleven years for the rest of your career you would select a)?

Just highlighting the reality that every pilot is better off when the top of the pay scale is improved. When you consider that majority of the pilot group lives on the 12th year of the pay scale its easy to see why the disparity exists.
Dump 3 of those flat pay years preferably keeping year 4, and increase it by at least 20/hr. You will start seeing pension valuations go up pretty quick once people are on type pay. Year 12 and on it just gets sucked into taxes, CPP and EI. And again, your schedules are so open by that point, a little draft and you're good. You guys are earning decent money (not industry leading when you consider your international competitors), but decent. When it comes to investing, the best time to make an impact is EARLY, not later.

Pardon my analogy, if you had a house, and the foundation is cracked and leaking, but you only had enough money to either put in a skylight or fix the foundation, I would say fix the foundation.

Skylight is nice and all, but it doesn't fix the fundemental problem with your payscale. Personally it'd be nice to see both go in.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:36 pm

Fyi I know I irritate a lot of airline guys on here, but honestly I'm in your corner.

When you win, everyone wins. Where my opinion differs is that I believe some focus should be paid particularly on increasing starting pay as you guys have it already pretty good beyond year 5 to 12.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by Mr. North » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:17 am

Raises for senior pilots become harder to achieve as disparity grows with the junior pilots. In negotiations the company will always compare pay to the lowest common denominator. Therefore it becomes increasingly harder to substantiate a raise for the $200+/year pilot when guys coming in off the street are making $50k, doing more or less the same job. Want a healthy increase to year 12 pay? Bring up the low end of the pay scale so you have something better to compare yourself too.

Also, as someone mentioned, demographics will play a larger role going forward. A third if not more of the pilot group is on flat pay. Junior members are starting to make their way into the ACPA framework. Within the next couple of years I expect a shift of momentum to favour those being on the property for 10 years or less.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by simplicity » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:50 pm

Rising tides raise all boats.

Nix the 1-2 or 1-3 year FO flat pay bullshit, make it one or two years tops but at a higher rate. Take those bottom years and add them to the top. Brings up the whole list. Make Yr 3 new new year 1 and year 12 the new year 10.

Leave the CA list alone for the next round of bargaining. FO/RP ratios are sad compared to other legacy airlines. AC FO/CA pay ratios are as low as %48. %55-60 is industry standard, or at least was a long time ago.

Then next round, once the discrepancy between CA/FO is made smaller, go for increases across the board.

Top CA's make more than enough right now, along with taking all the VO and draft making the pay discrepancy even larger.

The argument that "you make more if you just up the top pay" is stupid and can go away. I need to make a living for the next 10 years too... you know in the time of your life when you buy a house, raise some kids. I don't hear any year 12 pilots complaining too much about the pay. A year 12 FO on the 787 picking up a draft to MEL is pulling $9,000 - $10,000! AN FO!

What is the new RP making on that same flight? $1600? If an RP on flat pay is even lucky enough to get called for draft (if they make it that far down the list) even at double time that's only $3200.

I say it again. Lift from the bottom. In time then all will correct itself. I would advocate for this even if I was not on flat pay. Because I know in the long run it would be better for everyone.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by simplicity » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:00 pm

TheStig wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:57 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:53 pm
The point that the OP made was 4 year pay should be addressed.
Just food for thought, what do you think would be most beneficial to new hire pilots at AC, a $20/hour bump to each of the first 4 years on the pay scale or a $20/bump to the top year (year 12)?
Removing the first two years off the payscale and making year 3 the new starting pay, then adding two new rates to the top (making current year 12, the new year 10) would fix it for everyone.

We can leave the CA pay alone until the next round of bargaining and get the percentage ratios closer right now.

This coming from someone who is planning to take the first upgrade I can. If I was in it for myself I'd advocate for raises for CA's but the dismal pay for the first 4 years and even after that (compared to anywhere else in the world) needs fixing FIRST.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:50 pm

Fix NB Captain pay too.

Everything should be higher, but 4 year flat, NB CA, and FO:CA ratio in that order should be the focus.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by simplicity » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:10 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:50 pm
Fix NB Captain pay too.

Everything should be higher, but 4 year flat, NB CA, and FO:CA ratio in that order should be the focus.
Yeah you're right. Doing so would actually mean seeing some senior WB FOs actually bid NB CA.

If you took the average day/night pay for a year two A320 CA at $195/hr and took %55-60 of that, a year two FO should be making between $107-$117/hr.

Year two 787 FO should be making $140-$147. Year five FOs aren't even making that.

That's how far out of whack our ratios are.

Sad.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by yycflyguy » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:52 am

simplicity wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:50 pm
Rising tides raise all boats.

Nix the 1-2 or 1-3 year FO flat pay bullshit, make it one or two years tops but at a higher rate. Take those bottom years and add them to the top. Brings up the whole list. Make Yr 3 new new year 1 and year 12 the new year 10.

Leave the CA list alone for the next round of bargaining. FO/RP ratios are sad compared to other legacy airlines. AC FO/CA pay ratios are as low as %48. %55-60 is industry standard, or at least was a long time ago.

Then next round, once the discrepancy between CA/FO is made smaller, go for increases across the board.

Top CA's make more than enough right now, along with taking all the VO and draft making the pay discrepancy even larger.

The argument that "you make more if you just up the top pay" is stupid and can go away. I need to make a living for the next 10 years too... you know in the time of your life when you buy a house, raise some kids. I don't hear any year 12 pilots complaining too much about the pay. A year 12 FO on the 787 picking up a draft to MEL is pulling $9,000 - $10,000! AN FO!

What is the new RP making on that same flight? $1600? If an RP on flat pay is even lucky enough to get called for draft (if they make it that far down the list) even at double time that's only $3200.

I say it again. Lift from the bottom. In time then all will correct itself. I would advocate for this even if I was not on flat pay. Because I know in the long run it would be better for everyone.
This is loaded with inaccuracies and just bad negotiating. You are advocating that year 12 pilots accept 10 year rates to bump up new hire rates? Think about that. Over a 30 year career (conservative cuz guys typically go to 35-40 years) Where will you spend the majority of your career? You just gave yourself and everyone else a pay cut for 18 years vs a four year flat rate. Think about that.

In this time of unprecedented growth and opportunity at AC you know you can bid A220/B737MAX/A320 Captain with about two years seniority and rid yourself of flat pay forever, instantly?

Did you know that ACPA previously put out a survey asking if the membership was ok with FOs making more money than a Captain? Well, the guys went crazy. How can a Captain (NB) accept all that responsibility while an FO (B777) makes more money ? The intent was to get CA a raise. You know what happened? The FOs took a cut so that they weren't making as much. Careful what you wish for. You start messing with Captain pay and it'll affect FO/RP pay because they on a percentage of the Captain rate.

Captains do not make "more than enough". Look at the industry standard with the US carriers.We are staggering FAR behind what the US,AA and Delta guys make on equivalent aircraft. If you haven't heard 12+ year Captains complaining, you're not listening.

Lifting from the bottom does NOT benefit the entire group; only the group you find yourself presently in.

RP position should be abolished. FOs only. Who cares what a B787 FO nakes on a MEL flight. It's all about the pay rate and respecting the seniority system that you are apart of now. It's like complaining that a B777 guy makes $30k+ in a month with draft opportunities. It should be MORE!

You complain that the rates are too low for your demographic and then complain that more senior pilots make too much? :roll:
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by AOW » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:24 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:52 am

This is loaded with inaccuracies and just bad negotiating. You are advocating that year 12 pilots accept 10 year rates to bump up new hire rates? Think about that. Over a 30 year career (conservative cuz guys typically go to 35-40 years) Where will you spend the majority of your career? You just gave yourself and everyone else a pay cut for 18 years vs a four year flat rate. Think about that.
I read what he wrote to mean that year 10 pilots should be making what year 12 guys are today (and introducing progressively higher rates for years 11 and 12). While I mathematically understand the advantage of raising year 12 pay over the course of my career, I can’t help feeling that the flat pay is where help is needed the most! I think everyone should see an increase; I support simplicity’s proposal to start everyone at year 3, reduce to 2 years of flat pay, and add corresponding pay rates for years 11 and 12. I’d also like to see annual increases at least equal to or greater than cost of living... otherwise everyone on yr 12 is actually making less year after year.
altiplano wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:50 pm
Fix NB Captain pay too.

Everything should be higher, but 4 year flat, NB CA, and FO:CA ratio in that order should be the focus.
+1
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by bcflyer » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:24 pm

All I can say is wow! The company has done a fantastic job of getting pilots to think we are only allowed an increase in one area if we give up something somewhere else. We need to stop this way of thinking. The idea of cost neutral bargaining is fine if the company is struggling. Currently we are in a period of growth not seen for a very long time (perhaps ever),the company is financially viable, and needing us to all pull together to keep things rolling. The pilot group have given and given and given during hard times. It’s about fucking time we got something back. Anyone who thinks we need to give something up to get something in this environment needs to have their heads read. Raises at ALL levels are in order (BTW the ability to work more V/O IS NOT A RAISE!!😡), min credit needs to be increased and for gods sake can we at least get a true days credit for a vacation day? Having 14 days vacation equate to getting 3-4 days off is ridiculous.
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Re: Air Canada Pay

Post by simplicity » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:47 pm

bcflyer wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:24 pm
All I can say is wow! The company has done a fantastic job of getting pilots to think we are only allowed an increase in one area if we give up something somewhere else. We need to stop this way of thinking. The idea of cost neutral bargaining is fine if the company is struggling. Currently we are in a period of growth not seen for a very long time (perhaps ever),the company is financially viable, and needing us to all pull together to keep things rolling. The pilot group have given and given and given during hard times. It’s about fucking time we got something back. Anyone who thinks we need to give something up to get something in this environment needs to have their heads read. Raises at ALL levels are in order (BTW the ability to work more V/O IS NOT A RAISE!!😡), min credit needs to be increased and for gods sake can we at least get a true days credit for a vacation day? Having 14 days vacation equate to getting 3-4 days off is ridiculous.
I'm not saying only a the new group should raises. I'm saying we need to get the ratio closer to %60 and because of the shit bargaining the pilots have done for the last twenty years, catering to the top %10 of the pilots and forgetting the rest, that might mean nothing for the top WB guys initially. Once we are closer to a proper ratio then implement a raise across the board to keep us all in sync.

I fully agree with the Vaca credit comment. It's a joke here.
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