Layoffs

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L39Guy
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Re: Layoffs

Post by L39Guy »

TheStig wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:00 pm
I'm curious to hear what some of those who now are contemplating retirement think of that portion of the MOA? I wouldn't be critical of anyone who decides to wait it out, their seniority has earned them that right. I'm sure the decision making process is different for a 59 year old than a 64 year old. To be honest I didn't read the MOA too closely.
I am in the ERIP window; I have taken a close look at it and one would not take this for financial reasons. The financial upside, basically 2%/year prior to age 64 in increased pension, is not a lot of $ compared staying. If money is your only thing then it is not a good deal.

But, of course, there is more to life than money. It would be these qualitative things such as no more commuting, simulators, airport security, jet lag, etc. that would be a reason to leave and leave a significant chunk of change on the table.

It would take a few non-cash sweeteners like B passes until age 65, for example, that would add significant value at no cost and make it more attractive for individuals like myself.

Personally, I am 65/35 towards taking the offer.
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Curiousflyer
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Curiousflyer »

L39Guy wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:08 pm
TheStig wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:00 pm
I'm curious to hear what some of those who now are contemplating retirement think of that portion of the MOA? I wouldn't be critical of anyone who decides to wait it out, their seniority has earned them that right. I'm sure the decision making process is different for a 59 year old than a 64 year old. To be honest I didn't read the MOA too closely.
I am in the ERIP window; I have taken a close look at it and one would not take this for financial reasons. The financial upside, basically 2%/year prior to age 64 in increased pension, is not a lot of $ compared staying. If money is your only thing then it is not a good deal.

But, of course, there is more to life than money. It would be these qualitative things such as no more commuting, simulators, airport security, jet lag, etc. that would be a reason to leave and leave a significant chunk of change on the table.

It would take a few non-cash sweeteners like B passes until age 65, for example, that would add significant value at no cost and make it more attractive for individuals like myself.

Personally, I am 65/35 towards taking the offer.
You’re never going to get to retire early and collect a full salary, if that’s your comparison.
Also bear in mind, that your “salary” today may never come back, or be drastically hit over the next 6 months. There are another 450 reductions to come, what does that do your income potential? What about if Air Canada temporarily shuts down in April?
Why work through the worst aviation crisis in generation when you could retire with a full pension?
These are just a few questions to consider, you’ve earned the ability to retire early with no reduced pension, you’ve also earned the ability to stay until 65. Everyone is in a unique situation and you’ll need to make a decision that fits right for you, best of luck.
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Jimmy_Hoffa
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

RippleRock wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:39 am
That layoff MOU is a bit of a mess. It doesn't cover much about people on training courses, whether or not an IFR renewal is being offered to furlowed folk and the vacation clause is fuzzy.

The language isn't clear in a lot of areas, the most glaring of which are the repatriatization of the Rouge fleet, and total layoffs. I think the CMSC bid coming in April will clear up a lot.

Still thinking the 162 layoffs are more for optics for laying off other employee groups than any real savings.
Just slow down and read it and understand what parts of the contract it changes and what it doesn’t. It’s not a bit of a mess.

55 hours is the Minimum. All other credit formulas apply. Training is 2:40 per day. If that’s more than 55 hours then you get paid more.

The IFR clause is out dated since TC lost the court case regarding IFR expiry.

There is nothing glaring about rouge. The fleet is parked and for the purpose of the MOA and 55 hour guarantee they are receiving mainline rates levelling the pay across fleet types. (Debating its fairness and rouge in general is a different issue)

In all likelihood the 162 layoffs is what could happen immediately without any impact to an CMSC bid. That will quickly turn into the Maximum of 600 as the route structure is set over the next few months. The Corp is still against the wall and can’t cut too deep if it is 6 months and TC still wants to implement the new FTDT regs. All bets are off in 6 months. Especially if they get an extension to those regs.

-Jimmy
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flashheart
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Re: Layoffs

Post by flashheart »

L39Guy wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:08 pm
TheStig wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:00 pm
I'm curious to hear what some of those who now are contemplating retirement think of that portion of the MOA? I wouldn't be critical of anyone who decides to wait it out, their seniority has earned them that right. I'm sure the decision making process is different for a 59 year old than a 64 year old. To be honest I didn't read the MOA too closely.
I am in the ERIP window; I have taken a close look at it and one would not take this for financial reasons. The financial upside, basically 2%/year prior to age 64 in increased pension, is not a lot of $ compared staying. If money is your only thing then it is not a good deal.

But, of course, there is more to life than money. It would be these qualitative things such as no more commuting, simulators, airport security, jet lag, etc. that would be a reason to leave and leave a significant chunk of change on the table.

It would take a few non-cash sweeteners like B passes until age 65, for example, that would add significant value at no cost and make it more attractive for individuals like myself.

Personally, I am 65/35 towards taking the offer.
I still can't get over you want B1 passes on retirement when this virus was found to live in a cruise ship for 17 days after passengers disembarked.

Just imagine what you can't see on your 787...flight after flight of international flying...India, Frankfurt, London, Paris, Newark...ah man, not sure you can put a price on health
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altiplano
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Re: Layoffs

Post by altiplano »

So you are never going to get in a plane, train, or automobile ever again?

Never sit in a restaurant or tick anything that isn't yours?

I haven't seen any studies near that length (17 days) of virus surviving on surfaces either... and all were high does ideal conditions...
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CanadianPilotQc
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Re: Layoffs

Post by CanadianPilotQc »

L39Guy wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:08 pm

I am in the ERIP window; I have taken a close look at it and one would not take this for financial reasons. The financial upside, basically 2%/year prior to age 64 in increased pension, is not a lot of $ compared staying. If money is your only thing then it is not a good deal.

But, of course, there is more to life than money. It would be these qualitative things such as no more commuting, simulators, airport security, jet lag, etc. that would be a reason to leave and leave a significant chunk of change on the table.

It would take a few non-cash sweeteners like B passes until age 65, for example, that would add significant value at no cost and make it more attractive for individuals like myself.

Personally, I am 65/35 towards taking the offer.
do whatever is best for YOU and your FAMILY. don't listen to those sneaky posters above that will do anything they can to eat on each others back. My advise is to stay, you're probably a high seniority CA (or FO.) that has a lot of option anyway!
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flashheart
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Re: Layoffs

Post by flashheart »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... or-17-days

17 days...

Also, it appears the amount of the "dose" you get, can have an impact on how you react, in addition to your age.

So how much of a dose are you going to get on an airplane that is being exposed to it, time after time, after time. Not to mention the airport, flight attendants, hotels, food, etc etc

Talk about $$$ all you want, but I know what my priority is.

And should we get into studies on how much money we need for happiness?

Staying with a well into a 6 figures pension is madness to me. But do what you want. I wouldn't want to be bringing the Coronavirus home myself.
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L39Guy
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Re: Layoffs

Post by L39Guy »

flashheart wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:06 pm
I still can't get over you want B1 passes on retirement when this virus was found to live in a cruise ship for 17 days after passengers disembarked.

Just imagine what you can't see on your 787...flight after flight of international flying...India, Frankfurt, London, Paris, Newark...ah man, not sure you can put a price on health
This health crisis will eventually be solved in either the next few months or a year or so once treatments and vaccines are available. Between now and then travel, including international travel and cruises, will return. It had better return otherwise this industry is totally screwed.

So I take the longer term view that pass travel, cruise ships, etc. will be a form of vacationing, particularly if one takes the package and have nothing but time to do such things.

The B1 passes are a massive, tax free benefit, that are particularly valuable for overseas travel. And, it is a zero cost item to the company as, like all other standby passes, it is space available.
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altiplano
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Re: Layoffs

Post by altiplano »

flashheart wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:17 pm
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... or-17-days

17 days...

Also, it appears the amount of the "dose" you get, can have an impact on how you react, in addition to your age.

So how much of a dose are you going to get on an airplane that is being exposed to it, time after time, after time. Not to mention the airport, flight attendants, hotels, food, etc etc

Talk about $$$ all you want, but I know what my priority is.

And should we get into studies on how much money we need for happiness?

Staying with a well into a 6 figures pension is madness to me. But do what you want. I wouldn't want to be bringing the Coronavirus home myself.
That's interesting. The article does say "traces" - I suspect that you can find traces of a lot of things in an uncleaned cruise ship room that someone has been isolated in for weeks, doesn't mean it will cause an infection though.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post though! Madness.
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flashheart
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Re: Layoffs

Post by flashheart »

If I could give a guy who owns a L39, some B1 passes to retire, I would. But surely you can just buy the tickets. 10k is a lot, but not when you have millions.

My dad lost $700k in the stock market in this. Worked so hard his whole life (not airlines). Total Alberta blue collar work horse Deserves every penny. But could not spend it. I gave him so much crap yesterday. He could have rented the nice cars on vacation, flown first class, treated his wife to glamourous meals, etc. Now it's gone. Could the market rebound? Time is not on his side.

My point is that once you cross a certain threshold of money, you're going to die with a lot of it. Time is more of a commodity than money.

I know being at the top is nice. It's a good job. Flying flashy airplanes and being the boss. But travel is not going to be the same for a while. Nervous passengers & crew. Lockdowns on layovers. Risk of falling ill to a pandemic. The sexiness is gone. Reduction bids. Crew members talking about their financial duress. It's a mess. And you have the ability to wipe your hands clean. I'm envious
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sstaurus
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Re: Layoffs

Post by sstaurus »

flashheart wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:17 pm
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... or-17-days

17 days...

Also, it appears the amount of the "dose" you get, can have an impact on how you react, in addition to your age.

So how much of a dose are you going to get on an airplane that is being exposed to it, time after time, after time. Not to mention the airport, flight attendants, hotels, food, etc etc

Talk about $$$ all you want, but I know what my priority is.

And should we get into studies on how much money we need for happiness?

Staying with a well into a 6 figures pension is madness to me. But do what you want. I wouldn't want to be bringing the Coronavirus home myself.
RNA being found on a surface does not necessarily mean that the virus is alive, just that the virus was there at some point.

“We don’t know if it’s live virus or not, all that we know is that it’s genetic material,” he said.

Vaisman said that based on other studies, it’s “unlikely” that this RNA would be from live virus, but that this information was “not explicitly said” in the CDC report.

In an email to Global News, Jason Kindrachuk, an assistant professor and Canada Research Chair in emerging viruses at the University of Manitoba, said pieces of viral RNA can remain on surfaces for extended periods of time, but “this does not reflect infectious virus.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/6723553/coro ... ces-study/
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flashheart
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Re: Layoffs

Post by flashheart »

I saw this and yes the 17 days number and intial article was misleading...
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nottellin
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Re: Layoffs

Post by nottellin »

flashheart wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:06 am
If I could give a guy who owns a L39, some B1 passes to retire, I would. But surely you can just buy the tickets. 10k is a lot, but not when you have millions.

My dad lost $700k in the stock market in this. Worked so hard his whole life (not airlines). Total Alberta blue collar work horse Deserves every penny. But could not spend it. I gave him so much crap yesterday. He could have rented the nice cars on vacation, flown first class, treated his wife to glamourous meals, etc. Now it's gone. Could the market rebound? Time is not on his side.

My point is that once you cross a certain threshold of money, you're going to die with a lot of it. Time is more of a commodity than money.

I know being at the top is nice. It's a good job. Flying flashy airplanes and being the boss. But travel is not going to be the same for a while. Nervous passengers & crew. Lockdowns on layovers. Risk of falling ill to a pandemic. The sexiness is gone. Reduction bids. Crew members talking about their financial duress. It's a mess. And you have the ability to wipe your hands clean. I'm envious
If your dad was that close to retirement and he lost that kind of money, he was either being overly aggressive/greedy invested into that kind of volatility. Or he was extremely wealthy and invested conservatively and that's just the "small" hit his fixed income portfolio took.
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nottellin
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Re: Layoffs

Post by nottellin »

Damn dbl posts
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Parkex
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Parkex »

nottellin wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:57 pm
flashheart wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:06 am
If I could give a guy who owns a L39, some B1 passes to retire, I would. But surely you can just buy the tickets. 10k is a lot, but not when you have millions.

My dad lost $700k in the stock market in this. Worked so hard his whole life (not airlines). Total Alberta blue collar work horse Deserves every penny. But could not spend it. I gave him so much crap yesterday. He could have rented the nice cars on vacation, flown first class, treated his wife to glamourous meals, etc. Now it's gone. Could the market rebound? Time is not on his side.

My point is that once you cross a certain threshold of money, you're going to die with a lot of it. Time is more of a commodity than money.

I know being at the top is nice. It's a good job. Flying flashy airplanes and being the boss. But travel is not going to be the same for a while. Nervous passengers & crew. Lockdowns on layovers. Risk of falling ill to a pandemic. The sexiness is gone. Reduction bids. Crew members talking about their financial duress. It's a mess. And you have the ability to wipe your hands clean. I'm envious
If your dad was that close to retirement and he lost that kind of money, he was either being overly aggressive/greedy invested into that kind of volatility. Or he was extremely wealthy and invested conservatively and that's just the "small" hit his fixed income portfolio took.
Even the most conservative investor could have easily lost 50% of their portfolio. The stock market as a whole lost 70% in value so actually the average person who didn't sell anything lost 70%. This has nothing to do with volatility, it is a crash.
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redbaron
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Re: Layoffs

Post by redbaron »

Parkex wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:20 pm
nottellin wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:57 pm
flashheart wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:06 am
If I could give a guy who owns a L39, some B1 passes to retire, I would. But surely you can just buy the tickets. 10k is a lot, but not when you have millions.

My dad lost $700k in the stock market in this. Worked so hard his whole life (not airlines). Total Alberta blue collar work horse Deserves every penny. But could not spend it. I gave him so much crap yesterday. He could have rented the nice cars on vacation, flown first class, treated his wife to glamourous meals, etc. Now it's gone. Could the market rebound? Time is not on his side.

My point is that once you cross a certain threshold of money, you're going to die with a lot of it. Time is more of a commodity than money.

I know being at the top is nice. It's a good job. Flying flashy airplanes and being the boss. But travel is not going to be the same for a while. Nervous passengers & crew. Lockdowns on layovers. Risk of falling ill to a pandemic. The sexiness is gone. Reduction bids. Crew members talking about their financial duress. It's a mess. And you have the ability to wipe your hands clean. I'm envious
If your dad was that close to retirement and he lost that kind of money, he was either being overly aggressive/greedy invested into that kind of volatility. Or he was extremely wealthy and invested conservatively and that's just the "small" hit his fixed income portfolio took.
Even the most conservative investor could have easily lost 50% of their portfolio. The stock market as a whole lost 70% in value so actually the average person who didn't sell anything lost 70%. This has nothing to do with volatility, it is a crash.
Um, no.
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complexintentions
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Re: Layoffs

Post by complexintentions »

nottellin wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:57 pm
flashheart wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:06 am

My dad lost $700k in the stock market in this. Worked so hard his whole life (not airlines). Total Alberta blue collar work horse Deserves every penny. But could not spend it. I gave him so much crap yesterday. He could have rented the nice cars on vacation, flown first class, treated his wife to glamourous meals, etc. Now it's gone. Could the market rebound? Time is not on his side.
If your dad was that close to retirement and he lost that kind of money, he was either being overly aggressive/greedy invested into that kind of volatility. Or he was extremely wealthy and invested conservatively and that's just the "small" hit his fixed income portfolio took.

I too had the exact same thought. The statement about "losing $700k" doesn't add up. To have a reasonably diversified portfolio drop by $700k you would have to have started with a couple million, in which case you would still have something valued like 1.5 million. The only way you could lose $700k in the last couple months is to have started with a truly massive amount in fixed income, and/or been 100% in individual equities. Which is fine, in fact desirable if you're young, riskier if you're middle-aged, and insane if you're approaching retirement age. Google "sequence of returns". (And "diversification"!!)

I'm not saying I don't believe the figure quoted, I'm saying it has me scratching my head. Having said that I do sympathize with the loss. It's well-established by psychologists that the pain of a loss is felt far more deeply than the pleasure of a gain.

Parkex wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:20 pm
Even the most conservative investor could have easily lost 50% of their portfolio. The stock market as a whole lost 70% in value so actually the average person who didn't sell anything lost 70%. This has nothing to do with volatility, it is a crash.
Completely bogus stat. The equities market has lost 20-30% roughly on aggregate (so far!). No truly conservative investor ie GIC's, bonds, has lost anything remotely like that.

And no...you haven't "lost" anything, except on paper, until you sell and lock in your losses. Much like you haven't "gained" anything when your house rises in value, until you sell it and lock in the gain. Lots of people gonna find out over the next year they're not really "richer than they think" when they go to sell their house.
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nottellin
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Re: Layoffs

Post by nottellin »

Parkex wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:20 pm


Even the most conservative investor could have easily lost 50% of their portfolio. The stock market as a whole lost 70% in value so actually the average person who didn't sell anything lost 70%. This has nothing to do with volatility, it is a crash.
Yikes, where did you get your MBA? Everest college? 😂
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nottellin
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Re: Layoffs

Post by nottellin »

complexintentions wrote: Lots of people gonna find out over the next year they're not really "richer than they think" when they go to sell their house.
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ayseven
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Re: Layoffs

Post by ayseven »

I am never surprised by peoples' lack of basic arithmetic. I blame the accountants, who love to tell you 1 + 1 = -2, or +7 - "sorry, what numeral would you like it to be?"
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Parkex
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Parkex »

nottellin wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:05 am
Parkex wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:20 pm


Even the most conservative investor could have easily lost 50% of their portfolio. The stock market as a whole lost 70% in value so actually the average person who didn't sell anything lost 70%. This has nothing to do with volatility, it is a crash.
Yikes, where did you get your MBA? Everest college? 😂
Thanks for rebutting the point and not reverting to personal attacks! My point is that people could have easily had their savings wiped out. Including people with ESOP's at AC.

The stock market took a shit and this has nothing to do with the volatility of the market.
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nottellin
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Re: Layoffs

Post by nottellin »

Parkex wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:21 am
nottellin wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:05 am
Parkex wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:20 pm


Even the most conservative investor could have easily lost 50% of their portfolio. The stock market as a whole lost 70% in value so actually the average person who didn't sell anything lost 70%. This has nothing to do with volatility, it is a crash.
Yikes, where did you get your MBA? Everest college? 😂
Thanks for rebutting the point and not reverting to personal attacks! My point is that people could have easily had their savings wiped out. Including people with ESOP's at AC.

The stock market took a shit and this has nothing to do with the volatility of the market.
It was a joke, sorry. :goodman:
But certain segments of market took a shit, others not so much. Look at bond funds vs equity funds. C'mon.. :?
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Re: Layoffs

Post by tsgas »

nottellin wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:33 am
Parkex wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:21 am
nottellin wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:05 am


Yikes, where did you get your MBA? Everest college? 😂
Thanks for rebutting the point and not reverting to personal attacks! My point is that people could have easily had their savings wiped out. Including people with ESOP's at AC.

The stock market took a shit and this has nothing to do with the volatility of the market.
It was a joke, sorry. :goodman:
But certain segments of market took a shit, others not so much. Look at bond funds vs equity funds. C'mon.. :?
If you have your health , your family , and your friends than IMHO you are rich. Keep collecting your dividends and don't let your paper loss destroy your life. The markets are :D recovering and anybody that bought stocks on 03/20 is pleased with that bold move.
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flashheart
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Re: Layoffs

Post by flashheart »

He lost $700k but yes he started with $2.6M.

My point is his cheap ass couldn’t enjoy it and now it is gone. He doesn’t seem too worried. He still has lots.

My other point is the AC pilot that this retirement package targets has lots of money - already. But time is a resource that is limited no matter who you are. Even if the math tilts towards staying, what is the cost in terms of health & time?
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Old fella »

flashheart wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:23 am
He lost $700k but yes he started with $2.6M.

My point is his cheap ass couldn’t enjoy it and now it is gone. He doesn’t seem too worried. He still has lots.
Do I detect the makings of a “prodigal son” 😉😉
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