Cargo TA

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DanWEC
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by DanWEC »

Brutal. I was hoping anything negotiated in 2020 would at least have something like a 2 year maturation with a guaranteed, set increase. Wishful, sensible thinking.
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alkaseltzer
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by alkaseltzer »

RippleRock wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:20 pm ACPA has proven that they actively endorse division and lower wages. End of story.
RippleRock wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:20 pm ACPA has proven that they actively endorse division and lower wages. End of story.
FL320 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:08 pm
RippleRock wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:05 pm
skypirate88 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:09 am

It's a permanent concession, something that seems to have been lost on some people. No snap back at all.

The company and the MEC just inserted yet another division which will be exploited in future negots. Look how much capital has been spent to bring up the Rouge WAWCON over the years, often at the expense of the Mainline conditions.

We are busy worrying about what tomorrow has in store, but that outcome was decided 6 months ago. We need to stop worrying about tomorrow and start worrying about 6-12 months from now.
It's too late. We have shown our hand. We are prepared to accept permanent wage concessions and further division of our unity. We are the only Major Airline pilot body on the planet willingly voting in permanent concessions, and the only with A, B, C, D and now E wage scales.

This was OK'd by the Membership. We have nowhere to go but down as we will not be taken seriously in future negotiations.....ever.

That's it.
And soon F scale when Air Canada will negotiate with Transat’s union (AC already said no to the extension of the pilots contract stating they want to negociate after the purchase). But with 90% of the workforce currently on the CEWS at 1500$ per month, it does not look good unfortunately. Hopefully there will be some unity!
RippleRock wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:20 pm ACPA has proven that they actively endorse division and lower wages. End of story.
Why would ACPA endorse this when the CEO and Chair both have their children that are junior on the roster? Even management have their children on the roster, some laid off.

Why setup their own children for failure? Would you?

I don't buy your argument. Not defending ACPA or the people, but there's a trend to how parents, in any industry, want to cradle and set the stage for success for their own kids, especially in the same industry. Tricks of the trade. Etc.

So - Are you implying that the people at the very top, both in union and in management, who have their children at the bottom of the roster (some on furlough), are really not going to think long term for their family's future?

The past is the past but now, we have people with real skin (and genetics) in the game. Glad they're above and below me in seniority.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by GATRKGA »

By the posts seen here, AC pilots no longer view themselves in a superior light now that they're talking about an E scale at the company.

This might actually be a good thing so they can find unity with their brothers and sisters at TS in this upcoming massive merger. Or is that wishful thinking? All things considered, a TS contract right now doesn't look too shabby and I think the TS guys have a lot of things to fight for if the superiority complex emerges in the ISL negotiating room.

How would a representation vote go over at AC? Is ALPA the new light you guys are gunning for after this last concession?
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by LittleNelly »

GATRKGA wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:12 pm By the posts seen here, AC pilots no longer view themselves in a superior light now that they're talking about an E scale at the company.

This might actually be a good thing so they can find unity with their brothers and sisters at TS in this upcoming massive merger. Or is that wishful thinking? All things considered, a TS contract right now doesn't look too shabby and I think the TS guys have a lot of things to fight for if the superiority complex emerges in the ISL negotiating room.

How would a representation vote go over at AC? Is ALPA the new light you guys are gunning for after this last concession?
Wishful thinking. Has nothing to do with a "superior light" and everything to do with minimizing the job losses suffered by Air Canada employees. There will be mass consolidation of network with substantial concessions made to the EU resulting in a large number of permanently eliminated positions. Would Transat employees be feeling like some unity if it was their company buying another one and eliminating transat employee positions?
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Longtimer
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Longtimer »

New AC Cargo VP, plus approval of the 767-300 plan by ACPA.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 86137.html

Jason Berry appointed Vice-President, Cargo
Air Canada Pilots ratify collective agreement amendment to enable Air Canada to competitively operate dedicated cargo aircraft in the cargo marketplace.
MONTREAL, Nov. 27, 2020 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada is pleased to announce the appointment of Jason Berry as Vice President, Cargo effective January 1, 2021. Mr. Berry will be based at Air Canada's Montreal headquarters, and will report directly to Lucie Guillemette, Executive Vice President and Chief Commercial Officer.

Air Canada today also provided an update on its cargo business and the next steps in its strategic plan as the airline continues to adapt rapidly to evolving market opportunities. To date, Air Canada has operated more than 3,500 all-cargo flights globally, and the airline is now finalizing plans to convert several of its owned Boeing 767-300ER aircraft to freighters to fully participate in global cargo commercial opportunities.

The carrier has successfully concluded collective agreement amendment with its pilots represented by the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA), for contractual changes to enable Air Canada to competitively operate dedicated cargo aircraft in the cargo marketplace, which have now been ratified by the Air Canada pilots.

"Air Canada and Air Canada Cargo have pivoted quickly to new and unique commercial opportunities in response to evolving market conditions over the past 11 months, and Air Canada was the first airline globally to transform aircraft and double freight capacity by removing seats to enable cargo transport in the passenger cabin. We now operate up to 100 international, all-cargo flights weekly, and with ACPA's recent ratification on cargo operating arrangements, we are planning the conversion of several owned Boeing 767-300ERs recently retired from passenger service to all-freighter aircraft, which will position Air Canada to continue growing its cargo business across the global supply chain," said Ms. Guillemette.

"Jason's entrepreneurial approach combined with his solid air cargo background is well-suited to operationalize these commercial opportunities, and lead the strategic direction of our cargo business to optimize the growth of e-commerce while leveraging Air Canada's fleet and global reach," concluded Ms. Guillemette.

Mr. Berry comes to Air Canada from Alaska Airlines' wholly owned subsidiary McGee Air Services, where he was President with oversight for all aspects of aviation services ground handling, aircraft grooming, airport mobility services, check-in and gate services. From 2012 until June 2019, he led Alaska Airlines' cargo business, with direct responsibility for all aspects of cargo operations and compliance including revenue growth. Prior to joining Alaska Airlines, he held operational positions with increasing responsibility at other air cargo handlers and operators.

Mr. Berry holds a Master of Business Administration from the University of Washington's Michael G. Foster School of Business, in addition to earning a Bachelor's degree in Computer/Information Technology Administration and Management from Central Washington University, and an Associate's degree in Business and Commerce from South Seattle College.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

GATRKGA wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:12 pm By the posts seen here, AC pilots no longer view themselves in a superior light now that they're talking about an E scale at the company.

This might actually be a good thing so they can find unity with their brothers and sisters at TS in this upcoming massive merger. Or is that wishful thinking? All things considered, a TS contract right now doesn't look too shabby and I think the TS guys have a lot of things to fight for if the superiority complex emerges in the ISL negotiating room.

How would a representation vote go over at AC? Is ALPA the new light you guys are gunning for after this last concession?
Any "superior light" is your own inferiority complex or something. Get over it...

Unless of course you're talking about the current MEC Chair... but I don't call that superiority, I call it a condescending prick...

List of concession already sent to the EU competition regulator, they have extended their date for a decision again based on that. If it wasn't obvious to you before that this isn't growth, or more jobs, but consolidation of flying and eliminating a competitor, maybe that will give you an idea of what's to come on the other side of this

I think with the way TS pushed to shoot down the last unity attempt won't help an ALPA representation vote within the ACPA membership, but there is some ALPA support.

You'll also have the YUL Members to contend with who are the most worried about where they'll fall in with this deal. Maybe you guys could do some work to assuage them somewhat on what you're looking for if you value their support in putting ACPA to pasture.

It would have been better for all of us had ACPA merged under negotiated conditions vs. a representation vote. We would have had our terms moving over to ALPA, would have seen ALPA Canada reorganized in a way that benefits the combined us, we would have had a full roll vote on Canadian issues. Maybe you guys should get on reversing that course and getting ALPA to reach out to the ACPA membership ahead of a rep vote, with the previous negotiated terms I think it would be an easier sell to move to ALPA.
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mbav8r
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by mbav8r »

Curious? The article above mentioned 3500+ flights of passenger aircraft with seats removed for all cargo flights. Does the LOU cover these aircraft?
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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

altiplano wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:34 am

It would have been better for all of us had ACPA merged under negotiated conditions vs. a representation vote. We would have had our terms moving over to ALPA, would have seen ALPA Canada reorganized in a way that benefits the combined us, we would have had a full roll vote on Canadian issues. Maybe you guys should get on reversing that course and getting ALPA to reach out to the ACPA membership ahead of a rep vote, with the previous negotiated terms I think it would be an easier sell to move to ALPA.
ALPA will lose 650 members and will be just fine. ACPA will gain 650 members. The recent ALPA Canada Board elections have no TS pilots in the Executive. The merged group of approx 4800 will have around 3500-4000 jobs to fight over.

Any union that has a ‘CEO’ is not a union. It is pilots pretending they are management. And in ACPA’s case, it is a former pilot that was a former Senior Manager. That would never happen in any other self-respecting pilot union.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

rudder wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:51 am
altiplano wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:34 am

It would have been better for all of us had ACPA merged under negotiated conditions vs. a representation vote. We would have had our terms moving over to ALPA, would have seen ALPA Canada reorganized in a way that benefits the combined us, we would have had a full roll vote on Canadian issues. Maybe you guys should get on reversing that course and getting ALPA to reach out to the ACPA membership ahead of a rep vote, with the previous negotiated terms I think it would be an easier sell to move to ALPA.
ALPA will lose 650 members and will be just fine. ACPA will gain 650 members. The recent ALPA Canada Board elections have no TS pilots in the Executive. The merged group of approx 4800 will have around 3500-4000 jobs to fight over.

Any union that has a ‘CEO’ is not a union. It is pilots pretending they are management. And in ACPA’s case, it is a former pilot that was a former Senior Manager. That would never happen in any other self-respecting pilot union.
Are you responding to my post? Because your comments don't seem to have anything to do with what I'm talking about.
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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

altiplano wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:00 am
rudder wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:51 am
altiplano wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:34 am

It would have been better for all of us had ACPA merged under negotiated conditions vs. a representation vote. We would have had our terms moving over to ALPA, would have seen ALPA Canada reorganized in a way that benefits the combined us, we would have had a full roll vote on Canadian issues. Maybe you guys should get on reversing that course and getting ALPA to reach out to the ACPA membership ahead of a rep vote, with the previous negotiated terms I think it would be an easier sell to move to ALPA.
ALPA will lose 650 members and will be just fine. ACPA will gain 650 members. The recent ALPA Canada Board elections have no TS pilots in the Executive. The merged group of approx 4800 will have around 3500-4000 jobs to fight over.

Any union that has a ‘CEO’ is not a union. It is pilots pretending they are management. And in ACPA’s case, it is a former pilot that was a former Senior Manager. That would never happen in any other self-respecting pilot union.
Are you responding to my post? Because your comments don't seem to have anything to do with what I'm talking about.
I think what you correctly pointed out is that the only near term ALPA path available if the TRZ transaction is consummated is via representation vote. I am not even certain that the CIRB will order one. I am guessing that a significant number of AC pilots would have to sign ALPA cards in order for the CIRB to justify a representation vote for 4200 vs 650.

I believe that the result will be no representation vote and the TS pilots becoming ACPA members, just like the former CDN pilots.

I suppose that when the dust settles post-merger in the 2022/2023 time frame, ACPA and ALPA could attempt to resurrect Association merger talks. Perhaps attitudes will have changed by then.
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Fanblade
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Fanblade »

FL320 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:08 pm
And soon F scale when Air Canada will negotiate with Transat’s union (AC already said no to the extension of the pilots contract stating they want to negociate after the purchase).
I have no way to determine if the bold statement is correct or not. You would have a much better idea.

With that said, if the statement is correct it could be interpreted as AC management wanting to wait to negotiate with ACPA rather than your current leadership.

But then again, that shouldn’t surprise.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

Fanblade wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:15 am
FL320 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:08 pm
And soon F scale when Air Canada will negotiate with Transat’s union (AC already said no to the extension of the pilots contract stating they want to negociate after the purchase).
I have no way to determine if the bold statement is correct or not. You would have a much better idea.

With that said, if the statement is correct it could be interpreted as AC management wanting to wait to negotiate with ACPA rather than your current leadership.

But then again, that shouldn’t surprise.
AC most definitely doesn't want ALPA, they have management 2.0 in ACPA that we pay with our own dues to manage our expectations for them...
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DanWEC
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by DanWEC »

Well, if it's any consolation, TS has an excellent integral relation between ALPA, members, and management. Also, our group consist of members who are fiercely proud of their positions and conditions.
Once things gradually get integrated, that extra 650 could be enough to swing a vote towards ALPA membership.

I think a good question to ask would be why AC mgmt would be averse to the change... it would be good for pilots.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

DanWEC wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:56 pm I think a good question to ask would be why AC mgmt would be averse to the change... it would be good for pilots.
You answered your own question there...
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TOGAPowa
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by TOGAPowa »

Is there any possibilities that this new cargo ops makes for recalls? Would there be an interest for the company to call back some of the qualified 767 junior pilots? (And including all pilots senior to the most junior 767 pilot recalled for the operation)
'97 Tercel wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:08 am
What's the best headset to wear in a 767?
Usually (at crew's discretion), no headset above 10 000' in good radio reception areas. There is no hot mic intercom in the 767s (as far as I have seen). You can use pretty much whatever you want. If you have over-ears headset, you usually have one ear out on your partner's side for cockpit communication. Something light is good, but everybody has his preference.
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DanWEC
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by DanWEC »

altiplano wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:12 pm
DanWEC wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:56 pm I think a good question to ask would be why AC mgmt would be averse to the change... it would be good for pilots.
You answered your own question there...
I know, it was rhetorical. ;).
Hopefully we can work together on this one!
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL-280 »

ALPA is hands down a better union than ACPA. I would be for the change towards ALPA when the time comes.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by GATRKGA »

The merged group of approx 4800 will have around 3500-4000 jobs to fight over.
Perhaps. Not sure about AC, but any TS pilot deemed a surplus in those numbers has a 10 year recall period I believe?

Nobody will be jobless because of this merger.

A few things to consider.

Those 4800 pilots inside of 3500-4000 positions do not take into account fencing. If leisure does indeed spring back, wouldn't it be AC pilot's left on the streets and not TS pilots? That's the whole point of fencing the operation for X amount of years; preventing a cross-over bid. I have a hard time seeing a massive equipment bid leaving a surplus under a consolidated collective agreement. Maybe I'm too short-sighted, which is possible.

The senior TS pilots will also draw up their own deal to either retire early or accept concessions in the last 5 years of their careers. Which sounds better? Will depend on each individual.

Rudder, how many retirements do you figure between 2021-22, 22-23, 23-24, 24-25? Wasn't AC set for another retirement spree by 2027?

Those 3500-4000 positions may look bleak, but I question whether those 4800 would actually be 4800 in the next few years?

As an example, how many years is #800 away from retirement right now? #1200? #2600? There exists a lot of people in the 4800 who weren't all hired in their 20's.

Such as a lot of those guys and gals who came home from the ex-pat world had less than 5 years left in their careers whether it's because they're due for retirement, or because AC wasn't all that it was cracked up to be now that their command is no longer 6 months away. They all sit in the 3000's-4000's. I know at least 50 of my peers and acquaintances that meet this category and that's just the guys and gals I know. A few already quit AC for greener pastures, and a few more are on the way out switching to corporate as we speak, and many went back to being an expat in Asia, etc.

Perhaps it is as bleak as you portray it with those numbers. But I think between TS early-retirements, AC sporadic retirements throughout the 4800 you claim, and a lot of ex-pats who just didn't sign up for what they got, this thing is not as bad as it sounds. But perhaps you can correct my numbers rudder, alti, etc.

Thanks guys.
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FL320
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL320 »

GATRKGA wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:38 am
The merged group of approx 4800 will have around 3500-4000 jobs to fight over.
Perhaps. Not sure about AC, but any TS pilot deemed a surplus in those numbers has a 10 year recall period I believe?

Nobody will be jobless because of this merger.

A few things to consider.

Those 4800 pilots inside of 3500-4000 positions do not take into account fencing. If leisure does indeed spring back, wouldn't it be AC pilot's left on the streets and not TS pilots? That's the whole point of fencing the operation for X amount of years; preventing a cross-over bid. I have a hard time seeing a massive equipment bid leaving a surplus under a consolidated collective agreement. Maybe I'm too short-sighted, which is possible.

The senior TS pilots will also draw up their own deal to either retire early or accept concessions in the last 5 years of their careers. Which sounds better? Will depend on each individual.

Rudder, how many retirements do you figure between 2021-22, 22-23, 23-24, 24-25? Wasn't AC set for another retirement spree by 2027?

Those 3500-4000 positions may look bleak, but I question whether those 4800 would actually be 4800 in the next few years?

As an example, how many years is #800 away from retirement right now? #1200? #2600? There exists a lot of people in the 4800 who weren't all hired in their 20's.

Such as a lot of those guys and gals who came home from the ex-pat world had less than 5 years left in their careers whether it's because they're due for retirement, or because AC wasn't all that it was cracked up to be now that their command is no longer 6 months away. They all sit in the 3000's-4000's. I know at least 50 of my peers and acquaintances that meet this category and that's just the guys and gals I know. A few already quit AC for greener pastures, and a few more are on the way out switching to corporate as we speak, and many went back to being an expat in Asia, etc.

Perhaps it is as bleak as you portray it with those numbers. But I think between TS early-retirements, AC sporadic retirements throughout the 4800 you claim, and a lot of ex-pats who just didn't sign up for what they got, this thing is not as bad as it sounds. But perhaps you can correct my numbers rudder, alti, etc.

Thanks guys.
I too have friends who recently quit Canada for a new life with their family without any desire to come back to Transat when they will get a recall. I’ve heard other senior colleagues that are no longer interested in coming back to this post-covid pilot lifestyle; plus those close to retirement that are not interested in learning new procedures in a new airline (they would love an early retirement offer). Plus all those on medical leave. The final number will probably be less than the actual 680 I guess.
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mmm..bacon
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by mmm..bacon »

TOGAPowa wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:04 pm
Usually (at crew's discretion), no headset above 10 000' in good radio reception areas. There is no hot mic intercom in the 767s (as far as I have seen). You can use pretty much whatever you want. If you have over-ears headset, you usually have one ear out on your partner's side for cockpit communication.
Sorry for the thread drift.. "no hot mic intercom" What?? Is the cockpit that quiet? Or headsets are tiring/hot/painful on long haul flights? I'm somewhat stunned that a multi-million $$ wide-bodied airliner dosn't have a hot mic system...
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