ACPA Implodes !

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TheSuit
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by TheSuit »

LeadingEdge wrote:Actually there is a lot wrong with that. Does that Tim's location fly around at 600Kts? There are 350 customers in B777 at any one time. the B777 captain has 17 employees working for him. The B777 can crash, I'd like to see you try that with a Tim's location. The B777 Captain typically works 15+ hours every day that he is at work. Does Tim's have 115,000 KG of kerosene at its location? Does Tim's carry dangerous goods? Is a Tim's location worth $100+million? If the Tim's location manages to crash and burn, does it cost the parent corp $1Billion???
Dead simple: Tim's makes money, Air Canada does not. If Tim's had to buy and fuel a 777 to serve coffee on they wouldn't make a cent either.

I find it unbeleiveable how much time is wasted on executive compensation when the real cost problem is all of the overpriced, unproductive, low-skill labor and dead-weight middle managers of broom closets.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by Rockie »

TheSuit wrote:I find it unbeleiveable how much time is wasted on executive compensation when the real cost problem is all of the overpriced, unproductive, low-skill labor and dead-weight middle managers of broom closets.
Not so unbelievable when you consider we are human beings. When human beings are asked to give up much of what it took years to aquire by their leaders, those same leaders had better show they are willing to do the same. Otherwise those being asked to take one for the team are apt to go "hmm, the boss is taking money out of my pocket and putting it in his...so f**k him".

Human nature, and leadership 101.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by Doug Moore »

TheSuit wrote:I find it unbeleiveable how much time is wasted on executive compensation when the real cost problem is all of the overpriced, unproductive, low-skill labor and dead-weight middle managers of broom closets.
Sooo ... Suit, if I could make you MFWIC for a day, and sit you at the controls of that big mahogany bomber in HQ, what would be the first thing that you would do? :prayer:

Cheers,
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by torx »

TheSuit wrote: I find it unbeleiveable how much time is wasted on executive compensation when the real cost problem is all of the overpriced, unproductive, low-skill labor and dead-weight middle managers of broom closets.
I find that comment unbelievable!! And Suit...it's unbelievable
Hmmm....are you really an Exec? Starting to wonder....
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by yycflyguy »

Might have re-title this thread to say the renaissance of ACPA.

MEC Chair Bruce White
YUL LEC Vice Chair James Kyle
YYZ LEC Vice Chair Brian Murray
YYZ LEC Vice Chair Jeff Blake

All recalled from office.

Next up, defeating this damaging TA.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by rudder »

yycflyguy wrote:Might have re-title this thread to say the renaissance of ACPA.

MEC Chair Bruce White
YUL LEC Vice Chair James Kyle
YYZ LEC Vice Chair Brian Murray
YYZ LEC Vice Chair Jeff Blake

All recalled from office.

Next up, defeating this damaging TA.
When will the vacancies be filled? When will the permanent MEC Chair be elected? After the TA is rejected by the membership, what will the MEC do with the current NC? What direction will the reconstituted MEC take? Is this the re-birth of ACPA, or its final chapter?
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

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Doug Moore wrote:Sooo ... Suit, if I could make you MFWIC for a day, and sit you at the controls of that big mahogany bomber in HQ, what would be the first thing that you would do?
Start a new airline. Seriously.

But since noone here likes that option, fire a a few managers and mid level execs whose jobs I don't understand or are incompetent. Their salary won't do anything for the bottom line but those people bring down morale and waste money with bad decisions. Anyone who tries to BS me, pass the buck or spends too much time in meetings is also fired. None of this will save any material amount but would just be satisfying.

As far as the rest of it, AC is hosed. CAW is a death sentence for any company, which is why their numbers continue a death spiral into the toilet. Even brilliant management can't change basic arithmetic; the dollars out for the work completed is too high and the quality is too low. FanBlade has gone through this ad nauseum. I would say hammer the rest of the labor groups to get their costs and productivity levels back to planet earth, but AC doesn't have anymore treasure to go to war with.

Management doesn't really care who gets the labor money in the end, they just want the total number spent to go down. Pilots are an easy target because the pot is the biggest.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by Rockie »

TheSuit wrote:But since noone here likes that option, fire a a few managers and mid level execs whose jobs I don't understand or are incompetent. Their salary won't do anything for the bottom line but those people bring down morale and waste money with bad decisions. Anyone who tries to BS me, pass the buck or spends too much time in meetings is also fired. None of this will save any material amount but would just be satisfying.
I like your thinking here, but I disagree that it wouldn't save money. This airline is plagued by mediocre management. Maybe it's a leftover from long ago when it was a crown corporation, but there is no incentive here for any manager to get any job done. They sit in their offices issuing nonsensical and irrelevant edicts that do nothing to further the success of the airline. Meanwhile we have operational procedures that have no virtue but that some wog in the office thought of it and it is uniquely Air Canada. We do too many things differently than the rest of the world because we are Air Canada, and it therefore is better than anybody else.

Bullshit.

Here's an idea. How about when an airplane turns onto the yellow line there is a marshaller standing there with his wands up in the air ready to park the airplane?

Radical concept. Except every airline and operator on the planet seems to have figured it out except Air Canada. Really, it's not that hard. It is a failure of management, and the list is endless.

In their defense though, nobody at Air Canada is treated worse than lower level management. People who end up in the office are bled until there is nothing left to give and then they are discarded like yesterday's garbage. Nobody is valued here including lower level management.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

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Rockie wrote:Maybe it's a leftover from long ago when it was a crown corporation, but there is no incentive here for any manager to get any job done.
In general, there doesn't seem to be much incentive for any employee to get any job done at an airline. Considering the margins and the competition, it's actually pretty upside down, but most employees seem to have grown up with it and are happy limping along between boom and bust. It's culture, so like I said, start a new airline (figuratively or literally), or go bust again. Or, god forbid, hire outsiders who've actually seen a properly functioning business.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by Localizer »

How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by Norwegianwood »

Localizer wrote:How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.
No offence Loc, ya calls it like ya sees it! NW
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by yycflyguy »

rudder wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:Might have re-title this thread to say the renaissance of ACPA.

MEC Chair Bruce White
YUL LEC Vice Chair James Kyle
YYZ LEC Vice Chair Brian Murray
YYZ LEC Vice Chair Jeff Blake

All recalled from office.

Next up, defeating this damaging TA.
When will the vacancies be filled? When will the permanent MEC Chair be elected? After the TA is rejected by the membership, what will the MEC do with the current NC? What direction will the reconstituted MEC take? Is this the re-birth of ACPA, or its final chapter?
My best guesses at your questions (and what the hell do I know)

25-30 days for the Vice Chair positions
MEC chair to be selected after that
The TA vote is currently open. It closes on the 19th.
The NC has stated they will step down if it fails (as it should)
I see this as a renaissance, the great awakening.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

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Localizer wrote:How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.
Here is the ramps CA. The pages you're looking for are numbers 101 & 102. You can see for yourself what Ramp makes (Leads top out at ~$50K, S/As at ~$46K (after nine years)). To put that in perspective, a nine year S/A makes the same as a 3rd year Embraer F/O (going by the rates on willflyforfood.com).

If they're making as much as "the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft" (and I'm assuming you're talking about your top rate guys), it's because, as I've mentioned before, they're racking up a ton of overtime/shift trades - basically spending most of their lives working. I have to ask, why is that an issue? They're willing to sacrifice their bodies/lives to make good coin - that's their decision.

If you want to check out the responsibilities that we undertake, check out Pubs 70 & 173 (not sure you'll be able to access them) on the employee website.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by torx »

Localizer wrote:How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.

Flight attendants too?
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rudder
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by rudder »

yycflyguy wrote:
My best guesses at your questions (and what the hell do I know)

25-30 days for the Vice Chair positions
MEC chair to be selected after that
The TA vote is currently open. It closes on the 19th.
The NC has stated they will step down if it fails (as it should)
I see this as a renaissance, the great awakening.
Any names for potential replacements?
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

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yyz monkey wrote:
Localizer wrote:How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.
Here is the ramps CA. The pages you're looking for are numbers 101 & 102. You can see for yourself what Ramp makes (Leads top out at ~$50K, S/As at ~$46K (after nine years)). To put that in perspective, a nine year S/A makes the same as a 3rd year Embraer F/O (going by the rates on willflyforfood.com).

If they're making as much as "the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft" (and I'm assuming you're talking about your top rate guys), it's because, as I've mentioned before, they're racking up a ton of overtime/shift trades - basically spending most of their lives working. I have to ask, why is that an issue? They're willing to sacrifice their bodies/lives to make good coin - that's their decision.

If you want to check out the responsibilities that we undertake, check out Pubs 70 & 173 (not sure you'll be able to access them) on the employee website.
This is from the CA for a lead SA,$26.06 per hour.
You can not even compare an SA to the F/O. You say it takes 9 years to get to your wage, it takes probably close to that of flying just to get hired at AC or any other heavy transport airline, if not more, there is also the prerequisites to be able to be considered, I.E your transport rating and all the exams needed to reach this level.
The same applies to the AME, it is about 8 years to get the AME, school, experience, writing exams!
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by yycflyguy »

rudder wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:
My best guesses at your questions (and what the hell do I know)

25-30 days for the Vice Chair positions
MEC chair to be selected after that
The TA vote is currently open. It closes on the 19th.
The NC has stated they will step down if it fails (as it should)
I see this as a renaissance, the great awakening.
Any names for potential replacements?
Yes. All I can say is that it is a step in the right direction.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by Thirteentennorth »

Rockie wrote:...This airline is plagued by mediocre management. Maybe it's a leftover from long ago when it was a crown corporation,
Partly correct Rockie! What many seem to forget, however, is that the present AC is an amalgam of AC, CP, PW, WD, EP, TX[?], ND. Each of those airlines brought their own corporate cultures to the various mergers/takeovers. E.g., and Doug can correct me on this, when Pee Dub, flush with Alberta Heritage Fund cash, bought CP Air, regional airline managers took over from experienced executives who had been running a fine international airline. And on down the line it went until you have the case of a former EPA low-level manager who is now the AC VP of Labour Relations [now there's an oxymoron, "AC Labour Relations"!].

I would say, despite Suit's gross over-simplifications, that one of the biggest problems faced by AC today is the ACPPA, which places structural constraints on AC which have been imposed by politicians, each with their own agenda to forward, and their own constituency to answer to. WestJet has none of these constraints placed on them. Furthermore, WJ has done it correctly: those positions which require licenses [pilots, mechanics, dispatchers] are well paid. All other non-licensed positions are paid at lower rates. Therein lies the structural problem at AC: they have some of the lowest Flight Operations and Technical costs in the industry, and some of the highest non-flight-operations and non-technical costs in the industry. I have heard somewhere that AC is forced to pay something around $150-200 MILLION per annum for translation services [don't know if this is accurate, I stand to be corrected on this]. My point is that if AC was allowed to operate as efficiently as they could, and could do away with much of the non-essential expenses they face daily, the picture would be quite different. But they can't because as soon as they try to do something about it, the howls of outrage start from all parts of the country. All of these structural constraints imposed by the ACPPA cost money.

Compounding the problem is a culture of entitlement among the Canadian travelling public which demands the lowest fares on the most modern and technologically-sophisticated aircraft. Do the math. A B777 costs ca. $US150M. The public wants to travel non-stop from YYZ - YVR for $150.00 The shuttle from Guelph to YYZ in a crapped out old van to get that flight costs $75.00 Gimme a freakin' break!

At least the membership of ACPA seems to be doing something about this rogue group which was operating within the MEC, and are taking control of their own destiny. ACPA's sole mandate is to properly represent the collective interests of its members, not to save AC money, not to rescue the airline, and certainly not to provide the training ground for a whole future generation of AC flight ops managers. Some of the MEC seem to have forgotten this in a rush to further their own pet agendas, including fighting the Age 60 issue.

This can only be a good thing.

Cheers.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

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Thirteentennorth wrote:Compounding the problem is a culture of entitlement among the Canadian travelling public which demands the lowest fares on the most modern and technologically-sophisticated aircraft.
The economics suck, but it's the free market and those are the cards you're dealt. Most people cannot afford to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for flights, plus the expenses at their destination. If you increase the price, demand will drop. If that happens, the airline shrinks and pilots lose jobs, but a bunch of fixed costs like paying the aircraft lease on a parked aircraft (or taking a hit on a sublease) and paying the CEO salary remains. You're in a low margin business, and people are paying for a service - to get them from A to B. If the same service can be produced in a $150M 777 or a $1000 Ford Van, tough luck.
You can not even compare an SA to the F/O. You say it takes 9 years to get to your wage, it takes probably close to that of flying just to get hired at AC or any other heavy transport airline, if not more, there is also the prerequisites to be able to be considered, I.E your transport rating and all the exams needed to reach this level.
This is just bad math. The top end for a pilot far exceeds that for the ramp, I'm sure. If you took the average pay pilots would be way higher.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

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Here's a question; why are pilots so obsessesed with length and girth? Why is the top of your wage scale 6 times higher than the bottom? Why does all the money AND best flying go to the top? Why would a 777 captain make more than 767 captain or EMB captain to do the same job?
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by Rockie »

TheSuit wrote:Here's a question; why are pilots so obsessesed with length and girth? Why is the top of your wage scale 6 times higher than the bottom? Why does all the money AND best flying go to the top? Why would a 777 captain make more than 767 captain or EMB captain to do the same job?
To some degree you have a point. For the same money a 777 Captain may be quite happy to flog around in an EMJ and would certainly have the experience to do so, but the same is not necessarily true going the other way. For most people entering an airline the EMJ is their first jet and by a large margin the biggest airplane they've ever flown. There are differences in how they are operated that will not be apparent to a layman. The pilot in command of a 777 is also in charge of a lot more people, and is responsible for a lot more people and a lot more expensive piece of machinery. I'm sure you can appreciate that worldwide operations require more breadth of experience than flying between Toronto and Winnipeg as well.

Do you think the Captain of Royal Caribbean's Oasis of the Seas should get paid more than a cruise boat skipper on Lake Ontario? They are afterall the same job.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by MackTheKnife »

Why does the president make more than a Captain? The same argument can be applied across every industry in the world all the way down to the new hire cleaning floors

At least the Captain does some work that brings in revenue to the company. Mr. Pres simply sits in an office trying to figure out ways to screw over the employees so he can have a larger bonus check.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by Marinth »

DrBoeing wrote:
yyz monkey wrote:
Localizer wrote:How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.
Here is the ramps CA. The pages you're looking for are numbers 101 & 102. You can see for yourself what Ramp makes (Leads top out at ~$50K, S/As at ~$46K (after nine years)). To put that in perspective, a nine year S/A makes the same as a 3rd year Embraer F/O (going by the rates on willflyforfood.com).

If they're making as much as "the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft" (and I'm assuming you're talking about your top rate guys), it's because, as I've mentioned before, they're racking up a ton of overtime/shift trades - basically spending most of their lives working. I have to ask, why is that an issue? They're willing to sacrifice their bodies/lives to make good coin - that's their decision.

If you want to check out the responsibilities that we undertake, check out Pubs 70 & 173 (not sure you'll be able to access them) on the employee website.
This is from the CA for a lead SA,$26.06 per hour.
You can not even compare an SA to the F/O. You say it takes 9 years to get to your wage, it takes probably close to that of flying just to get hired at AC or any other heavy transport airline, if not more, there is also the prerequisites to be able to be considered, I.E your transport rating and all the exams needed to reach this level.
The same applies to the AME, it is about 8 years to get the AME, school, experience, writing exams!
Keep in mind the pilot keeps going up from there. The lead stops at that point. $26.06 isn't that unreasonable for an experienced lead. Not to mention they aren't doing Tim Hortons level simple jobs. Take De-Icing for example. Do you really want some kid making $10 an hour who really doesn't care what happens to be spraying your plane? Or look at stacking bags into baggage compartments. I've seen experienced guys fit 80 bags into a pit that inexperienced guys only managed to fit 60 into. Is getting passengers bags to them a priority? It does pay to have experienced guys around in every proffession in the company.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by TheSuit »

Rockie wrote:Do you think the Captain of Royal Caribbean's Oasis of the Seas should get paid more than a cruise boat skipper on Lake Ontario? They are afterall the same job.
Do they work at the same company with roughly the same implications for mistakes? The big ship driver should be paid more if the work is harder, but by how much? The engineer working at GE Aviation designing engines does not make 6 times the salary of his GE collegue designing light bulbs. Are GE engines unsafe because of that? No. Same goes for doctors (a favorite pilot comparison); 30 year surgeons wouldn't make 5-6 times what new surgeons make, despite getting the most difficult cases. They also don't get to choose patients based on seniority.

As far as safety goes, the big iron goes to whichever pilot has seniority, not whichever pilot is the most highly skilled or knows the most about international issues. If the issue is that seniority equals experience equals skills, why would two 10 year people be paid differently depending on the equipment? Crashing a plane is bad, period. I can't imagine the 77 captain being paid more than the 67 captain encourages him to fly safer or gives him the skills he needs to do so.
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Re: ACPA Implodes !

Post by DrBoeing »

TheSuit wrote:Here's a question; why are pilots so obsessesed with length and girth? Why is the top of your wage scale 6 times higher than the bottom? Why does all the money AND best flying go to the top? Why would a 777 captain make more than 767 captain or EMB captain to do the same job?

Pilot pay at AC is based on GTOW, so the larger the bird the greater the pay, this is not rocket science.
I feel it is an archaic system but it is what is used so everyone including AC has to live with it. Personally I think a pay system based on seniority would be better.
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