Air Canada Flow

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

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infiniteregulus
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Air Canada Flow

Post by infiniteregulus »

So what's the new expected flow times look like to Air Canada from the Express Carriers?
Jazz
Georgian
Sky Regional
EVAS
Once all the Jazz PML guys are in, when will AC start taking guys from the other carriers and how many?
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snag
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by snag »

So you're asking what Air Canada will do 700 new hires from now? We don't even know when and what they'll do on the next ground school.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by infiniteregulus »

Basically how viable a move would it be for someone to go to one of these express carriers in anticipation of AC? Worth it to go now in hopes of getting an AC call in a couple years or to not even bother, considering Jazz will likely be the primary source of new hires?
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loopa
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by loopa »

I could be wrong but I think going to Jazz will grant you as equal of a chance as it would at any of the other CPA's once that list gets exhausted. Cause the new hires at Jazz won't be costing AC a lot of money, so why exhaust from Jazz when say a Sky Regional F/O is making more than Jazz? Just my thoughts. I don't know much about the situation to be honest.
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Stinky
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by Stinky »

You better go somewhere where the schedule works for you. I would plan for at least 10 years at the regional level. If it turns out to be less, great, but it could be much longer if/when the economy slows down.
There are probably 2000 pilots combined flying for the AC regionals now. Assume half want to go to AC. Thats a lot of ground schools before your number comes up.
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dream chaser
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by dream chaser »

Once the Pml is exhausted, AC will be hiring 80% from all the "express" carriers and 20% from the street. The 80% though from the Express brand will be made up based on the number of pilots at the respective companies. So for example, if Jazz makes up 80% of the Express brand (pilot wise) then they will make up 64% of the total hiring at AC going forward once the PML is exhausted. Don't quote the Jazz numbers, just put them in for an example.

How long will it take to exhaust the PML? That's anyones guess. They told us to expect about 100 per year but that would be only a guess. There were a little over 700 names on the PML (some won't be going). So It will take many years for the list to be exhausted. I have just over 8 years in at Jazz and not expecting my name to come up for 18-24 months (based on the 100/yr theory). But once again, it's anyones guess as to how fast AC's expansion/retirement plans will happen. And if history is any indication, the next economic downturn is right around the corner.

So which way is the best way to advance your career towards AC? If I had that crystal ball, it certainly wouldn't have taken this long to get where I'm at. Aviation truly is a crapshoot. You will most likely get burned somewhere along the way. But you have to keep moving forward. My best piece of advice for any young person starting out (in aviation or otherwise). Do something you love and enjoy it along the way. I love flying and looking back, I have had some incredible experiences in my career thus far. I've also been burned a few times and that sucks at the time. But if anyone of those bad luck moments doesn't happen, I might not be where I am today. I choose to work at Jazz for the lifestyle. I've been fortunate in life not to have to make decisions based on money. I've always just lived within my means. Am I rich? Definately not in the money sense, but in the life sense, no doubt about it. So chase your dreams, whatever they may be and when life throws you a curveball just remember that it's part of a bigger picture.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by altiplano »

AC has changed the way it hires and from where many times over the years so any strategizing over which company you do/don't go to will change by the time you may/may not get called by AC.

Depending on where you are in your career and what you've done in general I'd just follow the proven formula of progress... Right seat, left seat, bigger aeroplane repeat, at the best company I could get on with that suited my needs... And get some left seat time preferably over 12566 lbs. before you go to a job you won't get any at for the foreseeable future. ie.Jazz.
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loopa
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by loopa »

The last two pieces of advice are amongst one of the top replies I've ever read here. Big plus 1 alti and dream chaser! 8)
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by infiniteregulus »

Great advice guys - appreciate the responses!
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fish4life
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by fish4life »

Is there anything written down at Sky regional etc that says they are going to take flow from them? If not I'd be very skeptical about it happening 5+ years down the road
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Maxpwr
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by Maxpwr »

Why would you be skeptical of that? It came directly from AC execs in our town hall meeting with them.
I heard they just took a couple of our guys on the last course as "off the street".
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by infiniteregulus »

I haven't heard of anything in writing about the other express carriers like Georgian.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by JoeyBarton »

Also heard that on the late March pit course at mainline, a georgian pilot was on it who interviewed a few weeks ago, although the job app window is not up and running on the AC career website...
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by infiniteregulus »

I know there were 2 Georgian pilots that recently went to AC, however, I know at least one had interviewed and been pooled for at least a year before even starting work at Georgian. Do to the PML at Jazz, they went from bottom of the AC pool to the top and then placed in the latest ground school.
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av8ts
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by av8ts »

And don't forget this is not a "flow" through to AC from Jazz or other Regionals it's just a guaranteed interview when your number comes up
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Slappy the Squirrel
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by Slappy the Squirrel »

My impression was that pilots from the AC express carriers besides Jazz are considered the same thing as OTS pilots until the Jazz flowthrough is complete. Ie. They can be hired by AC right now, but they don't fill any sort of quota except for the 20% OTS. Basically, at this time there is no real difference between a Skyregional pilot and a Porter pilot. Once the Jazz flowthrough is complete there are plans to form flowthrough agreements with the other express brands, although I haven't heard anything set in stone.

It's true though, AC changes their hiring policies every few years, I don't think I'd be making career decisions to go to any specific company with the idea that I'd have a guaranteed job at AC later, it's just too unpredictable. Pick a job where you'll be happy long term and if AC calls then all the better for you!

Edit: I see dreamchaser already explained all this earlier, I think he/she has it right
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Starbuck44
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by Starbuck44 »

Out of curiosity, where does this whole flow program leave guys from companies such as Perimeter, Hawkair, Bearskin and the likes. What are our chances of being hired at big red (taken into account that we do not make a move to Jazz, Sky or any other AC major feeder)?
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AllClutch
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by AllClutch »

Minimum of 80% new hires will be from AC express.
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dirk82
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by dirk82 »

AllClutch wrote:Minimum of 80% new hires will be from AC express.

Is that guaranteed?

As far as I have heard and seen the only part if this rodeo that is in writting is that 700 and some hires are coming from Jazz making up 80% of the GS. Once that is exhausted 6-8 years from now its anyones guess what AC will do. From what I see unless you were at Jazz before this deal was in place and got your name on the list your chances at AC in the next 5 or so years are pretty slim. Beyond that agreement its all just blowing smoke up your a$$ so you will accept those laughable wages in hopes that one day soon your chance for AC will pop up.
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loopa
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by loopa »

dirk82 wrote:
AllClutch wrote:Minimum of 80% new hires will be from AC express.

Is that guaranteed?

As far as I have heard and seen the only part if this rodeo that is in writting is that 700 and some hires are coming from Jazz making up 80% of the GS. Once that is exhausted 6-8 years from now its anyones guess what AC will do. From what I see unless you were at Jazz before this deal was in place and got your name on the list your chances at AC in the next 5 or so years are pretty slim. Beyond that agreement its all just blowing smoke up your a$$ so you will accept those laughable wages in hopes that one day soon your chance for AC will pop up.
This is exactly what I think too. Nothing has actually been said about anyone who isn't already on the PML. Or maybe it has just not publicly announced. All I have read is that 80% of AC grsc will include 700 odd PML pilot's. That to me reads that anyone who isn't already on it (case-in-point, new hires), has no guarantee of a flow through/interview/what ever you want to call it.

Question: Would it make sense to move anyone hired at Jazz on the new salary and pay for their replacement at the regional level? Because now you wouldn't be dealing with taking an expensive salary out of Jazz and replacing them with a b scale salaried pilot. You'd be taking someone that probably doesn't cost AC as much, paying for their training at AC, paying more salary during the course of their ac careers, paying for their replacement at Jazz, and in turn incurring more costs for one seat to be moved from company A to B. Why not just hire from outside when the PML is exhausted so that you don't have to pay twice for one seat to be filled from Jazz? Since the point of all this is to save money after all... Just my speculation obviously. Thoughts?
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Bajan Pilot
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by Bajan Pilot »

The time for speculating is over, it is what it is...sense or not.
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biatch
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by biatch »

There is NO B SCALE. 3 years of service were added to the front end of the pay scale and the classic 8 is capped for new hires. Switch a/c and you will make as much just 3 years longer.
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Krimson
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by Krimson »

That is a B scale.

Anyone starting at jazz 1 year ago started at $41,000. Anyone starting now gets $36,000.
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biatch
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by biatch »

Wrong. A B scale is an entire separate scale which generally does not bridge into the original scale or does not attain the same potential of the original scale. This is not the case at Jazz. Yes the classic is capped, but it's better to retain that work than watch some outfit that was originally willing to fly RJ for 52K (capt) offer 40K to fly an 8 (capt). Not singling out Georgian just using them as an example.

Starting at 36K instead of 41K is not a B scale. It is a wage cut. Actually even that is a long stretch considering no one got a wage cut at the time of ratification. A new hire didn't have their wage cut either since they entered under those terms.
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Stinky
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Re: Air Canada Flow

Post by Stinky »

I suppose that it's not a B scale technically.

You can't really call it a wage cut either though. Who took the wage cut? Not a single person that voted, that's for sure.
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