YYT Cancellations

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av8ts
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YYT Cancellations

#1 Post by av8ts » Tue May 19, 2015 3:17 am

Anyone want to explain how Provincial Airlines were operating in and out all day yesterday yet AC canceled all flights in the afternoon and last night?
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Slappy the Squirrel
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#2 Post by Slappy the Squirrel » Tue May 19, 2015 4:12 am

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Rockie
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#3 Post by Rockie » Tue May 19, 2015 8:09 am

Slappy the Squirrel wrote:Just a guess?
Exactly right. For PAL St. John's is home, but for Air Canada it is the far end of a very large North American route network. Any disruption there has follow on consequences that no one but SOC (System Operations Center) are fully aware of. Cancelling flights is not a decision taken lightly and is only done because the certain disruption to the schedule, inconvenience to the customer and cost is less than it would be with airplanes, passengers and crews diverted someplace they're not supposed to be. Rest assured as soon as a flight is cancelled plans are underway to reallocate whatever resources are necessary to get things back to normal.

My hat is also off to the good people of Newfoundland who generally greet such disruptions with a good natured shrug. Nobody knows bad weather like they do.
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#4 Post by hithere » Tue May 19, 2015 8:49 am

The Cat 3 on runway 11 should be operational by the end of the year, although the E190 cannot do Cat 3 and it currently flies into YYT a lot so unless they take it off the YYT run, the problem will persist.
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#5 Post by Rockie » Tue May 19, 2015 9:07 am

hithere wrote:The Cat 3 on runway 11 should be operational by the end of the year, although the E190 cannot do Cat 3 and it currently flies into YYT a lot so unless they take it off the YYT run, the problem will persist.
Yes and no. The CAT II/III will be to both 29 and 11 (according to the PPT I just saw) which will greatly improve the reliability over the current time when winds are out of limits for low visibility approaches on 29. While it's true the 190 is not CAT III capable (no autoland) they are due to leave the fleet completely in a little over four years to be replace by the 737 which is.
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#6 Post by Old fella » Tue May 19, 2015 9:30 am

If I may. Isn't the airline responsible for the pax once in the aircraft and enroute, for example if they miss YYT and head to their technical alternate which, lets say is Gander. AC is then responsible for meal vouchers and accommodation should their aircraft not be able to get back to YYT for whatever reason(duty limitations, continued bad WX) Also AC would have to charter a bus to get thoes people to their final destination YYT is that a a preferred method.

If the flight is cancelled at departure point(YYZ,YHZ or where ever) then AC is not responsible for that(bad wx), they will book you on next available flight subject to availability.

Outside of the very items Rockie stated, if my commentary a fair statement.

PS. I got nailed a couple of times in and out of YYT due shit wx but Maritimers take it in good stride..............

:drinkers: :partyman:
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#7 Post by av8ts » Tue May 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Thanks for the responses, makes sense. I was checking the RVRs and winds last night and the last 4 or 5 flights into YYT which were canceled hours before departure time had 1200 or better on the catII runway at or just past their scheduled arrival times.
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#8 Post by hithere » Tue May 19, 2015 5:10 pm

Rockie wrote:
hithere wrote:The Cat 3 on runway 11 should be operational by the end of the year, although the E190 cannot do Cat 3 and it currently flies into YYT a lot so unless they take it off the YYT run, the problem will persist.
Yes and no. The CAT II/III will be to both 29 and 11 (according to the PPT I just saw) which will greatly improve the reliability over the current time when winds are out of limits for low visibility approaches on 29. While it's true the 190 is not CAT III capable (no autoland) they are due to leave the fleet completely in a little over four years to be replace by the 737 which is.

Only 20 of the 45 E190 will be leaving the fleet(as per the deal with Boeing to take 20 E190 off AC's hands in exchange for a good price on the inbound 737). That still leaves 25 E190(kind of an orphan fleet, wouldn't you agree?) until the end of the current contract in 2025
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#9 Post by Rockie » Tue May 19, 2015 6:00 pm

hithere wrote:Only 20 of the 45 E190 will be leaving the fleet(as per the deal with Boeing to take 20 E190 off AC's hands in exchange for a good price on the inbound 737). That still leaves 25 E190(kind of an orphan fleet, wouldn't you agree?) until the end of the current contract in 2025
Major avionics upgrades would be required on all the airplanes to comply with the US ADS-B requirements by the mandatory date of January 1st, 2020. Air Canada is not going to invest that kind of money in airplanes that will be leaving anyway, and for the same reason the 320's have to be gone by then as well. If for some strange reason AC keeps those planes they either get upgraded or they may not fly in US airspace after that date.
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#10 Post by av8ts » Wed May 20, 2015 3:42 am

Obviously catIII approaches are long overdue at YYT. As someone said after the YHZ accident, airports need to spend less money on fountains and art and more on approach aids and lighting.
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#11 Post by Radiocaster » Wed May 20, 2015 4:41 am

av8ts wrote:Obviously catIII approaches are long overdue at YYT. As someone said after the YHZ accident, airports need to spend less money on fountains and art and more on approach aids and lighting.
+1
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#12 Post by leftoftrack » Sun May 24, 2015 6:09 am

Radiocaster wrote:
av8ts wrote:Obviously catIII approaches are long overdue at YYT. As someone said after the YHZ accident, airports need to spend less money on fountains and art and more on approach aids and lighting.
+1
+2
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#13 Post by rigpiggy » Tue May 26, 2015 12:42 pm

Old fella wrote:If I may. Isn't the airline responsible for the pax once in the aircraft and enroute, for example if they miss YYT and head to their technical alternate which, lets say is Gander. AC is then responsible for meal vouchers and accommodation should their aircraft not be able to get back to YYT for whatever reason(duty limitations, continued bad WX) Also AC would have to charter a bus to get those people to their final destination YYT is that a a preferred method.
PS. I got nailed a couple of times in and out of YYT due shit wx but Maritimers take it in good stride..............

:drinkers: :partyman:
No they put a "subject to weather" notice out prior to boarding, but yes if they miss they will charter a bus, however since they are so painfully slow paying the companies lots won't do the job. Hence why charlottetown is preferred to Moncton
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#14 Post by av8ts » Wed May 27, 2015 7:34 am

Starting in June 11//29 will be closed for 5 months. It's going to get a lot uglier before it gets better
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#15 Post by pelmet » Thu May 28, 2015 2:56 am

A lot of autopilots have significantly reduced crosswind limitations for autoland below CAT I minima. So despite the improvement, for some operators there could still be some difficulties with the new lower minimums.
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#16 Post by altiplano » Thu May 28, 2015 7:19 am

AC FOM says 15 KT max x-wind for low vis approaches which is more restrictive than the Boeing AOM (25 kt)... Not sure about limits on the emb/bus...
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Re: YYT Cancellations

#17 Post by Rockie » Thu May 28, 2015 10:10 am

altiplano wrote:AC FOM says 15 KT max x-wind for low vis approaches which is more restrictive than the Boeing AOM (25 kt)... Not sure about limits on the emb/bus...
The AC FOM complies with the TC Low Visibility Procedures manual which is where the crosswind and tailwind limits for CAT 2/3 approaches come from. Autopilot / autoland crosswind and tailwind limits are type specific but are pretty much identical between Boeing and Airbus at 25 and 10 knots.

While autoland is required for CAT 3 and used if available when performing a CAT 2, it is a separate issue from low visibility approaches and has its own technical limitations.
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