The next PML wave

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rudder
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Re: The next PML wave

#26 Post by rudder » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:11 pm

anonymity wrote:However Rudder, when you have the leader of the race to the bottom, who started with US regional pay taking a 6.5% pay cut, I feel like a genius. At least now they can't come to us for ten years demanding we match those bottom feeders
I guess I should have been clearer - I meant Major carrier pilots as that seems to be where the significant pay updraft is currently occurring.
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springlocked
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Re: The next PML wave

#27 Post by springlocked » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:36 am

The problem with us as a group we are such easy targets for a ruthless management team. This has been demonstrated time and time again(in Canada and the USA) when there is a major change such as merger or anything that exposes seniority lists we go to pieces and turn on each other. All management needs to do is plant the seed and because of our own greed and personal agendas we go into crazy mode and they just sit back and watch the in-fighting with sh1t eating grins on their faces -- I need say no more -- suit the MEC
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flyingpilot9
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Re: The next PML wave

#28 Post by flyingpilot9 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:45 am

So if someone was to go to GGN as a direct entry 1900 captain, what would be the chances of getting on a PML with AC,or are your Chances increased of getting on AC? Can you get on SKY regional without an internal reference??
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gtanorth
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Re: The next PML wave

#29 Post by gtanorth » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:05 am

All of the express partners have a PML with Air Canada. If you go to Georgian you are 100% on the PML and will get a chance at AC. The PML is seniority based.
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teacher
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Re: The next PML wave

#30 Post by teacher » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:50 am

Are pilots being hired via the Georgian and Sky Regional PMLs yet?
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PROC_HDG
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Re: The next PML wave

#31 Post by PROC_HDG » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:13 pm

teacher wrote:Are pilots being hired via the Georgian and Sky Regional PMLs yet?
Yes.

PROC_HDG
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BingBong
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Re: The next PML wave

#32 Post by BingBong » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:55 pm

teacher wrote:Are pilots being hired via the Georgian and Sky Regional PMLs yet?
And will be senior to you. Sickening isn't it
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Shady McSly
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Re: The next PML wave

#33 Post by Shady McSly » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:59 pm

Say what? How is the 3rd tier being hired when the Jazz PML isn't even exhausted yet?
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Re: The next PML wave

#34 Post by mbav8r » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:11 pm

Shady, that is the second of three violations of the PML we agreed to, first being the interview process not as described, originally medical strictly cat1 and log books not required, not the case. Now as of January if you attend, a Jazz pilot now has another layer added to the process.
Personally, I think if any Jazz pilots wanted out of the PML, it wouldn't be hard to get out of, the signed agreement has, as I said, three blatant violations!
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Re: The next PML wave

#35 Post by BingBong » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:23 pm

Shady McSly wrote:Say what? How is the 3rd tier being hired when the Jazz PML isn't even exhausted yet?

Did you just wake up or something? A SKY pilot is senior to our very first PML pilot...five months AFTER our PML started...nice eh?
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mbav8r
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Re: The next PML wave

#36 Post by mbav8r » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:57 pm

BingBong wrote:
Shady McSly wrote:Say what? How is the 3rd tier being hired when the Jazz PML isn't even exhausted yet?

Did you just wake up or something? A SKY pilot is senior to our very first PML pilot...five months AFTER our PML started...nice eh?
I must've been sleeping too, how'd that happen?
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Re: The next PML wave

#37 Post by Boreas » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:11 pm

Shady McSly wrote:Say what? How is the 3rd tier being hired when the Jazz PML isn't even exhausted yet?
Is Jazz considered tier II, while Sky and GGN tier III? Honest question.
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Re: The next PML wave

#38 Post by BingBong » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:09 pm

I would still consider GGN in the third tier...sky would be second tier. To honestly answer your question
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Re: The next PML wave

#39 Post by Boreas » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:28 pm

I suppose I shouldn't have used 'considered'... So aside from one's personal feelings on the matter, what is the actual structure under AC?

Has the structure recently changed? Is Rouge tier I - does this even exist - or tier II, or is it mainline? Whats does a tier level actually constitute?

For reference, whats is Encore for WestJet?
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altiplano
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Re: The next PML wave

#40 Post by altiplano » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:11 pm

I don't know for certain... But here's the scoop on Jazz seniority as I understand it...

OTS guys are starting and getting seniority numbers higher than Jazz guys starting in the same course (or earlier courses) because of the deferred courses Jazz guys are allowed as part of your PML...

80/20 right is the deal right...

So in a course 80% of the spots and seniority numbers go to Jazz and 20% go OTS...

But, for example say 10 jazz guys defer, they have to hold numbers above the 10 Jazz guys junior to them that showed up. But it doesn't mean a bunch of guys that deferred get numbers above everyone getting hired, so the Jazz guys that do show are getting pushed down the list with each deferment...

80% of the seniority numbers on each course to Jazz, 20% OTS

Don't know if it makes sense but the seniority draw has OTS pilot names in it and just "jazz" for each jazz guy and they get slotted like that...

I mean if 100 jazz guys deferred on a course, and I heard it was that many or more, it doesn't mean that jazz can lock up that much of the seniority list to the detriment of all other new hires.

FWIW I'd guess some of thise that deferred will change their life plans and not come to AC, resulting in moving up for others in their "jazz" allotted AC seniority number...

As for the medical being only CAT 1 you guys should say something if that's the case... Doctors probably don't know better and is just doing a new his medical as usual... And is bringing a logbook to an interview a big violation? Geez, you hold your relative seniority, get a guaranteed shot, options to defer courses, a bunch of cash, get over here already...
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Re: The next PML wave

#41 Post by TrailerParkBoy » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:19 am

FWIW, we signed our contract with the conditions listed for the PMA. This list was signed by Air Canada. Now a year later, the PMA conditions have changed!

Should ALPA step in? Probably!

Is it the easiest way to get an interview at AC? Absolutely!
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altiplano
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Re: The next PML wave

#42 Post by altiplano » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:11 am

Obviously seniority is your problem. I mean if you're nitpicking on logbooks and medicals...

Was it signed that Jazz gets to lock up the whole seniority list? I doubt it. Jazz guys are getting the seniority they should get relatively speaking, some are just getting early courses due deferrals. 80/20 right. It seems that's being honoured, wasn't that the deal?
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Re: The next PML wave

#43 Post by gtanorth » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:09 am

Tier I, II and III no longer really apply. Back in the day AC contracted Air Ontario who contracted Air Georgian. Tier I, II and III. Aig Georgian was tier III because the contract was with Air Ontario not Air Canada.

The only distinction now is Air Canada and Express.
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rudder
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Re: The next PML wave

#44 Post by rudder » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:37 am

Tier II and Tier III distinction has to do with CAR 705 vs CAR 704 ops.
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Re: The next PML wave

#45 Post by TheStig » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:42 am

TrailerParkBoy wrote:FWIW, we signed our contract with the conditions listed for the PMA. This list was signed by Air Canada. Now a year later, the PMA conditions have changed!
!
How have the conditions changed? Honest question.
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Re: The next PML wave

#46 Post by gtanorth » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:17 am

rudder wrote:Tier II and Tier III distinction has to do with CAR 705 vs CAR 704 ops.

That is not correct. It is a commercial term based on relationship to the main contract. But, In any case, AGL is both 704 and 705.
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hyperdrive
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Re: The next PML wave

#47 Post by hyperdrive » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:27 pm

I think the whole PML is a sham. Its purpose is attraction to the regionals and retention until interview. That's it. So many good guys are being passed over on phone interviews. Seems like they're only doing phone interviews to satisfy their arrangement of an "interview". I don't remember a phone interview being part of the Air Canada hiring process pre-PML. IMHO I think this is a terrible scheme as AC will gain maybe a handful of pilots, but forever lose the loyalty of hundreds. They're shooting themselves in the foot and it's gonna produce a mass of disgruntled employees. And it's a complete lie that they're taking 90% of those interviewed (as stated on another post). It's more like 10-20% accepted and 80-90% PFO'd.
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Re: The next PML wave

#48 Post by Shady McSly » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:40 pm

I'm not a part of it but yeah nice changes after the fact....like "Psyce!! Phyche eval for all now!" (but I guess that's not AC's fault)
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Re: The next PML wave

#49 Post by gtanorth » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:05 pm

hyperdrive wrote:I think the whole PML is a sham. Its purpose is attraction to the regionals and retention until interview. That's it. So many good guys are being passed over on phone interviews. Seems like they're only doing phone interviews to satisfy their arrangement of an "interview". I don't remember a phone interview being part of the Air Canada hiring process pre-PML. IMHO I think this is a terrible scheme as AC will gain maybe a handful of pilots, but forever lose the loyalty of hundreds. They're shooting themselves in the foot and it's gonna produce a mass of disgruntled employees. And it's a complete lie that they're taking 90% of those interviewed (as stated on another post). It's more like 10-20% accepted and 80-90% PFO'd.

90% related only to the GGN pilot interview ratio not any other company or OTS
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Re: The next PML wave

#50 Post by JoeyBarton » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:23 pm

100% agree with Hyperdrive. If mainline continues to pfo people over the phone interview, they can plan on a mass exodus to Transat, Sunwing and overseas. Lots of disgruntled captains at the express level.
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