No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

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yycflyguy
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by yycflyguy »

Raymond Hall wrote:In accordance with the prescient statement of Yogi Berra, "It ain't over 'till its over..." this issue is far from over.

Leave to Appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada of the Federal Court of Appeal Adamson decision was filed last week.
I guess the funding was raised.
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Fanblade
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Fanblade »

Raymond Hall wrote:In accordance with the prescient statement of Yogi Berra, "It ain't over 'till its over..." this issue is far from over.

Leave to Appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada of the Federal Court of Appeal Adamson decision was filed last week.
Kind of a bold statement don't you think?

Are you saying that the Supreme Court hearing your case is a foregone conclusion?
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Raymond Hall
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

Fanblade wrote:Are you saying that the Supreme Court hearing your case is a foregone conclusion?
Not at all. In the past five years, there have been an average of over 800 Leave To Appeal applications filed per year, and the Court can hear only about 70 cases per year, some of which it must hear because they are "appeals as of right."

So statistically, the chances of getting leave are only about one in eleven. But almost every applicant faces the same odds, including the ones who are ultimately successful. One thing is certain--if you don't file the application, you don't get Leave. There is obviously a number of factors that go into the Court's decision to grant Leave, and it is up to legal counsel to present a Leave argument that meets those criteria.

Don't forget, the Supreme Court did grant leave in the early phase of the Air Ontario - Air Canada Pilots case, and after the issues before the SCC were decided, the case then went on for years afterwards, before being decided with finality in the lower court.
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hithere
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by hithere »

Speaking of which, I believe someone mentioned in the AOPG thread that the plaintiffs had until the end of September to appeal to the SCC. Anyone know what they did?
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Rockie
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Rockie »

"Ageism" bulletin.

The hypocrisy pouring out of that bulletin from ACPA is enough to gag anyone familiar with the history. There is not an ounce of credibility behind the words but at least now they are being forced to say them.
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777longhaul
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 777longhaul »

Rocky

Would you please post this so those of us who are not "washed" clean, (force-retired) can read acpa's bulletin?

Thanks.
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Rockie
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Rockie »

It is a joint AC/ACPA bulletin so I cannot post it...sorry. Suffice to say the sudden concern for individual rights WRT to retirement coming from this union is more than a little rich. However as insincere as it sounds coming from ACPA it is nevertheless gratifying to see them finally, publicly acknowledging the discriminatory nature of the issue and defending those who choose to go beyond 60.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Guess you better find another job where people (like many of the posters on this thread) living on such high moral ground are appreciated...
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Rockie
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Rockie »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:Guess you better find another job where people (like many of the posters on this thread) living on such high moral ground are appreciated...
No need. People like you (whom this bulletin was directed at) will either learn to respect the rights of others, or if you are incapable of that then learn to keep your mouth shut and opinions to yourselves, or be asked not so politely to go work somewhere else. This is the year 2015 my friend...time to get up to speed.

You got the memo now take some solid advice, read it carefully and take it seriously.
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777longhaul
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 777longhaul »

Thanks Rocky.

I appreciate your quick response. I understand.

cheers
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Understated
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Understated »

My, my. How things change...

Imagine that, a union defending the human rights of its own members, after it has spent 10 years and a huge sum of dollars on legal fees doing just the opposite!

Well, the chickens haven't all come home to roost, at least not yet.
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sportingrifle
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by sportingrifle »

In a few years it will be interesting when some of the widows or estates of the original complainants have to decide if they wish to continue to fund and fight this battle.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

sportingrifle wrote:In a few years it will be interesting when some of the widows or estates of the original complainants have to decide if they wish to continue to fund and fight this battle.
WTF?
HAPPY FU*@$#& THANKSGIVING TO YOU TOO!
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duranium
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by duranium »

Rockie wrote:"Ageism" bulletin.

The hypocrisy pouring out of that bulletin from ACPA is enough to gag anyone familiar with the history. There is not an ounce of credibility behind the words but at least now they are being forced to say them.
Does anybody have enough fortitude, backbone, gumption, GUSTS, to post this bulletin so the unwashed, us , have an idea of what is been said. What say you out there?
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The Raven
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by The Raven »

duranium wrote:
Rockie wrote:"Ageism" bulletin.

The hypocrisy pouring out of that bulletin from ACPA is enough to gag anyone familiar with the history. There is not an ounce of credibility behind the words but at least now they are being forced to say them.
Does anybody have enough fortitude, backbone, gumption, GUSTS, to post this bulletin so the unwashed, us , have an idea of what is been said. What say you out there?
Crikey, don't get your panties in a knot. You're reading too much into it.

I have the bulletin in front of me, and no I am not going to post it. Not because I don't have the "fortitude, backbone, gumption, GUSTS (sic), but because it is none of your business.

I will give a quick synopsis though. Essentially, it says that there is a list with pilots birth dates and seniority numbers floating around. Hell, I've been at Air Canada for 35 years and that list has always been available. As a matter of fact I have a list in front of me right now and if you are ex-Air Canada, you probably had one before you retired. It's no big deal.

All the company and ACPA are saying is that if anyone uses the list to threaten or harass anyone that it will not be tolerated. As I approach age 60, I can honestly say that I have not been approached, threatened, harassed, cajoled, intimidated, or anything else regarding my intentions on flying/or not flying past age 60.

Nothing to see here. Time to go outside and play.
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Rockie
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Rockie »

I would avoid discussing specifics.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

I see it a little differently.

The fact that both the employer and the union have essentially been forced to take a public stance in response to an apparent or potential practice of employee age discrimination in the workplace indicates that both now recognize that the legally debatable issue of termination of employment at age 60 that was heretofore being dealt with through due legal process is presently manifesting itself in a manner separate from the law, and that that now improper behavior must be accorded the full weight of administrative governance.

There is a legal duty imposed on both to ensure compliance with both the spirit and intent of the law. This bulletin, in addition to recognizing the existence of potential improper behavior, provides a caution to those who would be tempted to carry their previous ostensibly legal distinction forward in a manner that is decidedly not in accordance with the present law.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

I think Bernie Sanders said it well last night in reference to Hilary Clinton email issue..."Enough with the damn emails"

I think we have heard enough of the FL60 issue. Please let it go!
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Old fella »

TrailerParkBoy wrote:I think Bernie Sanders said it well last night in reference to Hilary Clinton email issue..."Enough with the damn emails"

I think we have heard enough of the FL60 issue. Please let it go!
I am surprised the moderators are letting it continue with the numerous threads and many associated pages on this AC FL60 issue that have go on. But whatever!!!!!!!
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Ah_yeah
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Ah_yeah »

duranium wrote:
Rockie wrote:"Ageism" bulletin.

The hypocrisy pouring out of that bulletin from ACPA is enough to gag anyone familiar with the history. There is not an ounce of credibility behind the words but at least now they are being forced to say them.
Does anybody have enough fortitude, backbone, gumption, GUSTS, to post this bulletin so the unwashed, us , have an idea of what is been said. What say you out there?
Pfftt. Nice try.
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777longhaul
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 777longhaul »

Raven

Thanks for your post. Pleased to hear you have not had any problems with the age 60 issue. However, I see you are not yet at/over 60, so that may change. Hope not.

Currious, will you be staying past 60? You stated that you have the 35 years in, so pension not an issue, except for the new MPU's, which nicely covered the loss of indexing to those of us that were forced out at 60.

If you elect to stay past 60, it is nice to see, that you can make that decision, and not have the acpa force, use your dues to force you out, as they did to us.

Sure would be nice to see the pilot(s) who were on the top secret project, called project Ultra, and project SAC, and are now going past 60, on the 787 as a Captain. Hope he enjoys his time there, as he was totally fighting tooth and nail to make sure acpa did not back its members, who paid dues for all those decades.
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Last edited by 777longhaul on Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

777longhaul
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 777longhaul »

777longhaul wrote:Raven

Thanks for your post. Pleased to hear you have not had any problems with the age 60 issue. However, I see you are not yet at/over 60, so that may change. Hope not.

Currious, will you be staying past 60? You stated that you have the 35 years in, so pension not an issue, except for the new MPU's, which nicely covered the loss of indexing to those of us that were forced out at 60.

If you elect to stay past 60, it is nice to see, that you can make that decision, and not have the acpa force, use your dues to force you out, as they did to us.

Sure would be nice to see the pilot(s) who were on the top secret project, called project Ultra, and are now going past 60, on the 787 as a Captain. Hope he enjoys his time there, as he was totally fighting tooth and nail to make sure acpa did not back its members, who paid dues for all those decades.
The Raven wrote:
duranium wrote:
Rockie wrote:"Ageism" bulletin.

The hypocrisy pouring out of that bulletin from ACPA is enough to gag anyone familiar with the history. There is not an ounce of credibility behind the words but at least now they are being forced to say them.
Does anybody have enough fortitude, backbone, gumption, GUSTS, to post this bulletin so the unwashed, us , have an idea of what is been said. What say you out there?
Crikey, don't get your panties in a knot. You're reading too much into it.

I have the bulletin in front of me, and no I am not going to post it. Not because I don't have the "fortitude, backbone, gumption, GUSTS (sic), but because it is none of your business.

I will give a quick synopsis though. Essentially, it says that there is a list with pilots birth dates and seniority numbers floating around. Hell, I've been at Air Canada for 35 years and that list has always been available. As a matter of fact I have a list in front of me right now and if you are ex-Air Canada, you probably had one before you retired. It's no big deal.

All the company and ACPA are saying is that if anyone uses the list to threaten or harass anyone that it will not be tolerated. As I approach age 60, I can honestly say that I have not been approached, threatened, harassed, cajoled, intimidated, or anything else regarding my intentions on flying/or not flying past age 60.

Nothing to see here. Time to go outside and play.
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AvExpress
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by AvExpress »

disregard answer found
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leftoftrack
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by leftoftrack »

So how are the new hires working out?
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yycflyguy
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by yycflyguy »

Raymond Hall wrote:I see it a little differently.

The fact that both the employer and the union have essentially been forced to take a public stance in response to an apparent or potential practice of employee age discrimination in the workplace indicates that both now recognize that the legally debatable issue of termination of employment at age 60 that was heretofore being dealt with through due legal process is presently manifesting itself in a manner separate from the law, and that that now improper behavior must be accorded the full weight of administrative governance.
Now you got 'em right where you want 'em! :lol:
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