No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

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Mechanic787
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Mechanic787 »

I note that the Supreme Court has dismissed the Leave application. Pity. As I understand it, that is not a reflection on the merits of the issue before the courts, but rather, an indication of how important this issue is in relation to the national interest, given the limited number of legal issues that the SCC can decide in any given year.

Too bad. It would have been good to have this issue fleshed out in detail by that Court. Obviously, given the number, as I understand it, of other cases still before the CHRT, the final stone in this mortar has not yet been laid in place.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

How long does it take for the FP60 group to update the website with the latest judicial failure?
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Understated
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Understated »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:How long does it take for the FP60 group to update the website with the latest judicial failure?
Are you afraid that you might miss some earth-shaking development?
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Say Altitude
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Say Altitude »

So loss after loss after loss, including now from the SCC who has said it won't even hear the case (plus costs to AC/ACPA), and you're thinking it's not over. You're starting to sound like the Air Ontario gang.

Let it go Elsa, let it go.
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777longhaul
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 777longhaul »

Read 787 Mechanic's statements again. And...he is not in this issue as a FP60 member.

AT AC, only the pilots were age discriminated against!

The other unions, backed their members, and had the Arbitrators decide what to do. THEY were re-instated, because, they were age discriminated against, JUST LIKE THE PILOTS.

So, you have several groups of employee's at AC, who are determined, by the Arbitrators, to be terminated based on their age, and then re-instated.

How do you have several employee union groups, at the same airline, who are re-instated, BUT not the pilots? How much logic, legal, realistic sense does that make?

Guess, if your part of the acpa ageism specialist's, you think that is normal.

How many acpa mec/lec/special committee members, are now flying past 60, and going for the max pension uplifts, and the other benefits, that they fought to remove from the FP60 group? Anyone see the total hypocrisy in that. Have a look at the acpa bulletins, see who signed and forced this issue, for their sole benefit, and see who is benefiting. What benefit got passed to the mid and junior pilots. NONE.

acpa, got lucky, but not by their skill, it was with AC backing only. (and back door deals and lobbying) Good thing, AC did not want to terminate the other employee's, Senior management, just wanted to discriminate against it's pilots, you know, the one's that help build the airline over all the years. These are the same pilots that saw all the various senior management, come and go, and everyone richer than when they started their little time at the helm.

This issue, is one of the most discriminating issues of modern times, by acpa, and AC.
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Duke p
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Duke p »

Terminate......discriminate........how about "contractually agreed to retirement date"..........this argument is as old as the hills. Looking forward to this thread disappearing off page one.

Though I'm not helping things......

DP.
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WhatThe?
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by WhatThe? »

Now that the age issue is slowing down, and Trans-gender is all the rage, may I suggest a new direction?
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Doug Moore
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Doug Moore »

777longhaul wrote:
This issue, is one of the most discriminating issues of modern times, by acpa, and AC.
I agree with you completely longhaul but would add that, when it comes to dealing with employees, for AC the corporation, it has been, is, and always will be, just business. But for many (the majority) of the pilots at ACPA, the discrimination (though they self-righteously dismissed it) was very directly targeted at their fellow pilots and with the specific objective of maintaining the status quo of forced retirement for as long as possible. No thought given by them towards anything other than how to delay the inevitable change looming on the horizon - for the sole benefit of themselves. The tactics used worked out well for them and I would be very surprised if ever there was any feeling other than smug satisfaction with the outcome of many hundreds of their fellow pilots being force-retired as the years rolled by.

Discrimination is just a word until one becomes its victim. If those who discriminated against their fellow pilots manage to get through the rest of their own lives without themselves becoming a victim of discrimination, then I suspect that they will never come to understand, let alone accept the harm they caused their “union” brothers and sisters. And if ever such an acknowledgement was to arouse their conscience, I doubt if ever it would be to a level that would cause them to give a damn.

All in all, a sad but revealing chapter of pilot union history in Canada, particularly in view of the fact that while ACPA, the union, had isolated and was putting the screws to a segment of its own membership, all of the other AC unions dealing with the same issue got it right.
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sportingrifle
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by sportingrifle »

There is a very big difference between the pilots retirement age issue and those other unions at AC that "got it right." The difference is that with the other unions, the effect on junior members was holiday bidding, shift bidding, and so forth. Not their paycheck. The only people negatively in other impacted employee groups were the applicants off the street applying for positions that never came to be.

With the pilot group, due to the way our pay structure is calculated, total pilot payroll is (more or less) a "zero net sum" calculation. The "Fly past 60" group financially benefited only by taking food off the table of every pilot junior to them.

Due to industry demographics, the FP60 crowd enjoyed the "Golden Age" of professional aviation. They enjoyed careers progressions and standards of living not seen before them, and that will never be seen again. This was in part due to those that retired at 60 or less before them. Their cries of "discrimination" only reinforces how much they don't realize how easy they had it and their sense of entitlement. Methinks that the "Supreme's" quite probably thought similarly.
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Doug Moore
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Doug Moore »

sportingrifle: I lived during a part of the so-called “Golden Age” of professional aviation to which you suggest that you have some knowledge. I experienced first hand the “career progressions and standards of living not seen before …” and to which you seem to suggest that you have some familiarity. I was laid off for 33 months at age 35 with two kids and a mortgage. That wasn’t “Golden” I can assure you. Some of us who enjoyed that “Golden Age” had to spend up to 20 years just to have the seniority to hold a bottom narrow body left seat. How does that career progression compare with that of today? If you ever have the misfortune to be exposed to one or two or three or four or five or more mergers then you come and tell us “how easy” that is and what your own sense of entitlement might be in those circumstances. Now maybe you’ve had some of the experiences that those of us from the “Golden Age” have had, but I suspect not, so as the saying goes, “until you’ve walked a mile in our shoes” you might want to reconsider telling those of us from yesteryear what we do or don’t realize when it comes to a career in professional aviation.

As to the “cries of discrimination”, re-read the second paragraph in my posting above. Does it apply to you?

By the way, next year will be the 5th year since mandatory retirement was abolished and the predicted doom and gloom will be behind you. The retirement conveyor belt will resume full speed ahead. That 5 year hiatus could have been over in 2010 had cooler heads prevailed. It (the hiatus) was coming sooner or later but ACPA chose later and in doing so chose to preserve the interests of a majority at the expense of the interests of a minority. You can assign whatever word you want to describe that behavior.
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sportingrifle
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by sportingrifle »

Ok Doug you may think that is not the golden age but compare to this.

For 7 years after I got my ATPL I couldn't even apply at an airline because I didn't have 20/30 uncorrected vision, despite TC issuing me an ATPL with my 20/70 vision. That feels like discrimination and I don't want to even think about the effect that had on my lifetime earnings.

20 years to the left seat of a narrowbody? If hired at 22 years old right out of collage with 200 hours like the majority were, languishing for 20 years as a DC-8 second officer enjoying exotic layovers and accumulating seniority seemed more like purgatory than hell. Finally a Capt. in your mid-'40's? Today an OTS new hire will require a university degree ($100K) and 2000 hours TT including glass/heavy/multi crew time. So the first twenty years of your career now are spent accumulating debt in University, on top of the flying school debt, and then cleaning puke out of an air amulance in Ft. somewhere or other for years just to be able to apply to AC! Closer to Hell in my mind. Lots of new hires are now in their late 30's, narrow body Capt. in their late 40's, and thew will NEVER see the left seat of a wide body. A position many of the FP60 crowd spent years, or even decades in! And they wanted more! If the retirement age had stayed at 60, I would have probably been able to enjoy a year or 2 in the left seat of a WB. That 5 year "hiatus" of pilots not retiring is what did it in for me. And during my career at AC, I too have had the pleasure of a merger, bankruptcy restructuring, and a (short) layoff.

The proof of the pudding is in lifetime career earnings. Without getting complex with inflation and interestcalculations, it is the benchmark of how "golden" a career is. I'll happily calculate and post mine if you will do the same.

At the end of the day, we will never agree but I was merely trying to point out that amongst the eaten young, the FP60 cries of discrimination sound pretty pathetic. I have a great job, a great life, and my health. I am not going to spend my days getting bitter about what could have been but I am sorry, I just couldn't read this thread any more and not reply.

I am sure we will agree to disagree and that's ok. Gotta run, off to work.

sportingrifle
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

No thought given by them towards anything other than how to delay the inevitable change looming on the horizon - for the sole benefit of themselves. The tactics used worked out well for them and I would be very surprised if ever there was any feeling other than smug satisfaction with the outcome of many hundreds of their fellow pilots being force-retired as the years rolled by.
Really? How many of the FP60 group refused their new seniority number on January 1st every year?

"No sir, I can't accept that flying block, that promotion, that new equipment bid result...we forced people to retire who didn't want to and therefore Sir, I respectfully decline to accept that new seniority number, flying, promotion, equipment..."

Can't recall that happening. It seems like it's only discrimination when it suits one's purpose.

If any of the FP60 crowd did accept their rise in seniority, without registering their objections, then they are complicit in they same behavior they are so concerned about now.

The epiphany that is being played out now, is nothing but disingenuous.

When the FP60 crowd pledges to distribute any financial award they may receive to every living retired AC/CP pilot or the surviving widows of any AC/CP pilot, then maybe they can claim higher moral ground. Otherwise, it's all about personal gain.
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Rockie »

We earn the beating we get every contract. We deserve it.
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777longhaul
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 777longhaul »

So......discrimination is legal, and ok, and just business, and above all....gooood, when it is only about money?

The fact, that acpa and AC discriminated ONLY against the pilots, was totally ok in your books, as it was all about the money/promotions/vactions, that some....pilots would not get soon enough?

How can anyone, in their real mind, see only the pilots as being totally wrong. That discrimination is good, as long as it is the pilot on the seniority list that is near the top of the list? Only the pilot at the front of the line, (or just ahead of me/or on the other seniority page) SHOULD be discriminated against, that is just they way it should be.

The agents, the IAM, the Flight Attendants, and others, who are all paid according to their seniority, are to have total immunity from discrimination, by their OWN union, and THEIR OWN COMPANY, especially, senior management. This only comes from the top down.

Discriminate, Never.......except for the pilots!

This issue, played right into AC hands, the junior pilots lost their Pension, the Mid pilots just stood their, while, acpa, and AC quietly changed the contract without even contesting the fact that they TOTALLY Discriminated against a small group of pilots, (FP60) and then smiled at each others wisdom, and went about their business. That is so disgusting on so many levels.

Discrimination, is not about the money, and the facts are this, Raymond Hall tried many times to get acpa to agree to cost/income sharing, benefits gained, etc etc, from the pending wind fall that AC obtained by discrimination, against the only group of employee's in the company.

Life has a way of coming back around, and those of you who are so sure of this issue, might one day, have to admit that you were totally wrong. Discrimination is Discrimination, and the acpa ageist's and the senior management that structured the whole issue, are to blame. ALL the other airlines in Canada did it with out any problems. ONLY at AC you say.

So far.....Discrimination is working, well at acpa and AC, but not so much in the rest of the real world.

Now...off to the back of the bus, or how about going to the separate washrooms, sitting on the other side of the room, or not allowed in at all, and the list goes on and on, and, acpa and AC are squarely on that list of long ago, even today.
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Inverted2
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Inverted2 »

777longhaul wrote:So......discrimination is legal, and ok, and just business, and above all....gooood, when it is only about money?

The fact, that acpa and AC discriminated ONLY against the pilots, was totally ok in your books, as it was all about the money/promotions/vactions, that some....pilots would not get soon enough?

How can anyone, in their real mind, see only the pilots as being totally wrong. That discrimination is good, as long as it is the pilot on the seniority list that is near the top of the list? Only the pilot at the front of the line, (or just ahead of me/or on the other seniority page) SHOULD be discriminated against, that is just they way it should be.

The agents, the IAM, the Flight Attendants, and others, who are all paid according to their seniority, are to have total immunity from discrimination, by their OWN union, and THEIR OWN COMPANY, especially, senior management. This only comes from the top down.



Discriminate, Never.......except for the pilots!

This issue, played right into AC hands, the junior pilots lost their Pension, the Mid pilots just stood their, while, acpa, and AC quietly changed the contract without even contesting the fact that they TOTALLY Discriminated against a small group of pilots, (FP60) and then smiled at each others wisdom, and went about their business. That is so disgusting on so many levels.

Discrimination, is not about the money, and the facts are this, Raymond Hall tried many times to get acpa to agree to cost/income sharing, benefits gained, etc etc, from the pending wind fall that AC obtained by discrimination, against the only group of employee's in the company.

Life has a way of coming back around, and those of you who are so sure of this issue, might one day, have to admit that you were totally wrong. Discrimination is Discrimination, and the acpa ageist's and the senior management that structured the whole issue, are to blame. ALL the other airlines in Canada did it with out any problems. ONLY at AC you say.

So far.....Discrimination is working, well at acpa and AC, but not so much in the rest of the real world.

Now...off to the back of the bus, or how about going to the separate washrooms, sitting on the other side of the room, or not allowed in at all, and the list goes on and on, and, acpa and AC are squarely on that list of long ago, even today.
There's more "I'm being discriminated against" and "poor me" in there than a blacklivesmatter protest. :mrgreen:
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 777longhaul »

yep, your absolutely right, sure sounds like a lot of discrimination.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

Inverted2 wrote: There's more "I'm being discriminated against" and "poor me" in there than a blacklivesmatter protest. :mrgreen:
To come back to earth... We have raised legitimate legal concerns before the appropriate legal bodies. It is not about emotion, it is about law.
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Ah_yeah »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
No thought given by them towards anything other than how to delay the inevitable change looming on the horizon - for the sole benefit of themselves. The tactics used worked out well for them and I would be very surprised if ever there was any feeling other than smug satisfaction with the outcome of many hundreds of their fellow pilots being force-retired as the years rolled by.
Really? How many of the FP60 group refused their new seniority number on January 1st every year?

"No sir, I can't accept that flying block, that promotion, that new equipment bid result...we forced people to retire who didn't want to and therefore Sir, I respectfully decline to accept that new seniority number, flying, promotion, equipment..."

Can't recall that happening. It seems like it's only discrimination when it suits one's purpose.

If any of the FP60 crowd did accept their rise in seniority, without registering their objections, then they are complicit in they same behavior they are so concerned about now.

The epiphany that is being played out now, is nothing but disingenuous.

When the FP60 crowd pledges to distribute any financial award they may receive to every living retired AC/CP pilot or the surviving widows of any AC/CP pilot, then maybe they can claim higher moral ground. Otherwise, it's all about personal gain.
Bang on. They can't handle the truth :)

Rockie, you're right but I bet you hold the FP60 group blameless in the said state of acpa pilot affairs.
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

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