No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Post Reply
Message
Author
777longhaul
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#176 Post by 777longhaul » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:59 pm

yep, your absolutely right, sure sounds like a lot of discrimination.
---------- ADS -----------

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#177 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:16 pm

Inverted2 wrote: There's more "I'm being discriminated against" and "poor me" in there than a blacklivesmatter protest. :mrgreen:
To come back to earth... We have raised legitimate legal concerns before the appropriate legal bodies. It is not about emotion, it is about law.
---------- ADS -----------

Ah_yeah
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#178 Post by Ah_yeah » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:24 pm

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
No thought given by them towards anything other than how to delay the inevitable change looming on the horizon - for the sole benefit of themselves. The tactics used worked out well for them and I would be very surprised if ever there was any feeling other than smug satisfaction with the outcome of many hundreds of their fellow pilots being force-retired as the years rolled by.
Really? How many of the FP60 group refused their new seniority number on January 1st every year?

"No sir, I can't accept that flying block, that promotion, that new equipment bid result...we forced people to retire who didn't want to and therefore Sir, I respectfully decline to accept that new seniority number, flying, promotion, equipment..."

Can't recall that happening. It seems like it's only discrimination when it suits one's purpose.

If any of the FP60 crowd did accept their rise in seniority, without registering their objections, then they are complicit in they same behavior they are so concerned about now.

The epiphany that is being played out now, is nothing but disingenuous.

When the FP60 crowd pledges to distribute any financial award they may receive to every living retired AC/CP pilot or the surviving widows of any AC/CP pilot, then maybe they can claim higher moral ground. Otherwise, it's all about personal gain.
Bang on. They can't handle the truth :)

Rockie, you're right but I bet you hold the FP60 group blameless in the said state of acpa pilot affairs.
---------- ADS -----------

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#179 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:12 pm

Deleted.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by Raymond Hall on Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#180 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:17 pm

Deleted.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by Raymond Hall on Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#181 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:22 pm

Deleted.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by Raymond Hall on Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#182 Post by Old fella » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:27 am

Eight pages already. Keep it going chaps as it is the only source of entertainment on this whole blog site, reading the " have at'er" commentary from the regulars on this thread. Honestly, it gets more entertaining as the number of pages increase....

:lol: :D
---------- ADS -----------

777longhaul
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#183 Post by 777longhaul » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:57 pm

Glad you find it entertaining. If....you get bored of it, (doesn't seem you do, as you keep coming back) there is a great deal of other discrimination cases to read about, except for the "other employee's of AC" that were not represented, by the boot prints on the FP60's back's, from acpa.

But acpa, did not discriminate when it came to taking all of our union dues each and every month, just in-case you wanted to know some facts.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#184 Post by Old fella » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:44 am

777longhaul wrote:Glad you find it entertaining............
Well, I am delighted to hear that. Carry on!
:partyman:
---------- ADS -----------

Duke p
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:50 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#185 Post by Duke p » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:19 am

777longhaul wrote:Glad you find it entertaining. If....you get bored of it, (doesn't seem you do, as you keep coming back) there is a great deal of other discrimination cases to read about, except for the "other employee's of AC" that were not represented, by the boot prints on the FP60's back's, from acpa.

But acpa, did not discriminate when it came to taking all of our union dues each and every month, just in-case you wanted to know some facts.
Yes...."boot prints on FP60's back".........this thread is hilariously entertaining.....

I'm almost going to miss it......almost. :wink:

DP.
---------- ADS -----------

snag
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:00 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#186 Post by snag » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:39 pm

In latest news:

Image
---------- ADS -----------

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7325
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#187 Post by Rockie » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:43 pm

Ah_yeah wrote:Rockie, you're right but I bet you hold the FP60 group blameless in the said state of acpa pilot affairs.
Not at all, because the disgraceful way ACPA handled the discrimination issue is just one of many, many things wrong with this organization and group for which we are all responsible for over the years. However taking the retirement issue in isolation, ACPA and the pilots who supported it own that one completely.
---------- ADS -----------

Ah_yeah
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#188 Post by Ah_yeah » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:42 pm

Rockie wrote:
Ah_yeah wrote:Rockie, you're right but I bet you hold the FP60 group blameless in the said state of acpa pilot affairs.
Not at all, because the disgraceful way ACPA handled the discrimination issue is just one of many, many things wrong with this organization and group for which we are all responsible for over the years. However taking the retirement issue in isolation, ACPA and the pilots who supported it own that one completely.
You're on to something Rockie. The current state of affairs is embarrassing and the travails of the FP60 group are a result of basic human selfishness. I'm not laying that load on FP 60 either. As you well know the gap between haves and have-nots at AC is very wide. If, for example, our new hire wawcon was anything near fair maybe there would have been more sympathy for pilots returning or staying beyond 60. Leave legal rulings aside...please, just try this for a minute and you'll see the merit of that fact.
Class warfare, however carefully hidden, is alive and well, witness this battle alone. The basic issue that starting wages are barely livable at most of the crew bases is everybody's responsibility and is directly tied to why nobody gave a crap about the cries from FP60 from the beginning. It's all connected. Those that fought against FP60 are not arseholes like some would have you believe. It's just that commuting for 50k/year with a family back home leaves guys with their own worries. ( Save the shit that they had a choice and knew the wawcon before accepting the job). ALL ACPA pilots, past and present, should wear a bag over their heads for state of affairs.
---------- ADS -----------

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7325
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#189 Post by Rockie » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:03 am

Ah_yeah wrote:Class warfare, however carefully hidden, is alive and well, witness this battle alone. The basic issue that starting wages are barely livable at most of the crew bases is everybody's responsibility and is directly tied to why nobody gave a crap about the cries from FP60 from the beginning. It's all connected.
Yes to the class warfare as you call it - the "I did it so now it's my turn at the trough" sentiment is alive and well. The reason starting salary is so low and 777 salaries are so high is because we made it that way. That isn't about to change because people who suffered are now reaping the benefits of that suffering and aren't about to throw it away out of fairness. How you fix such a deeply entrenched system is the million dollar question though.

It doesn't matter if anybody gives a crap about the cries from the FP60 group however, what matters is reality and the law. The inequities of the pay system do not give us a free pass from reality or the law, and that's where people who fought the change hurt us all. Ageism is discriminatory according to contemporary social values and the law - period. Being pissed off at a group of pilots doesn't excuse us from the law nor does it justify extending a discriminatory practice as long as possible for our own benefit or as punishment. It just doesn't. Ignoring reality also prevented us from taking steps to reap whatever immediate savings were realized from this change and as we know - and as we were repeatedly warned would happen - the company got 100% of the millions. We got the square root of f**k-all because we chose being mad over being smart.
Ah_yeah wrote:Those that fought against FP60 are not arseholes like some would have you believe.
It wasn't the junior pilots who chose the route ACPA took, it was ACPA. ACPA then conned the junior guys into supporting their position. If you don't believe me go back to the beginning and read the question the union put to the membership. Then look at the names comprising the union's Age 60 committee...do any of them look junior to you? Then look at where those people are today.

The junior people who supported the union's actions were conned and ill-informed. For the most part they are not "arseholes" as you put it, but it is incumbent on every one of us whether we are junior, senior, young or old to inform ourselves. Failure to do that is not an excuse. As well ignoring reality when it's staring you in the face yelling at you to pay attention is a stupid choice that many of us willingly took.

Then there is the other category of people who were fully aware of everything and still chose to perpetuate a blatantly discriminatory practice against their own members for their own individual benefit. What would you call those people?
---------- ADS -----------

43S/172E
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:26 pm

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#190 Post by 43S/172E » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:29 pm

:smt014
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by 43S/172E on Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#191 Post by Raymond Hall » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:59 pm

43S/172E wrote:Now that this very divisive thread is now being put to the dust pan of history in which where it now belongs I would like to add a few thoughts on it. ... Anyways it is now over you can fly to 65 enjoy your career make the most of it.
Sorry to disappoint you, but there are over 100 pilots who are still waiting for their hearing before the Tribunal. The issue is not dead. So how about if you save your slanderous gloating for another day?
43S/172E wrote:Over coffee with a lawyer friend the other day I was told a very interesting story on how when the case went back to the C.H.R.T. (minor win for FP 60) there was around 16 pages written by the judge stating wait for this that the younger pilots would be unfairly discriminated by age.
Your "lawyer friend" needs to check his "facts" before making statements to others. All the decisions by the Tribunal and the courts are made public, and if there were such a 16 pages, undoubtedly we would have seen them by now, or at least I would know about them.
---------- ADS -----------

pigboat
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:58 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#192 Post by pigboat » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:30 am

Raymond

Any guess as to the time frame for the hearings on the remaining 100? The years without a final resolution just keep slipping away. Twenty years on the A.O. lawsuit! It is hard to believe just how long the process can drag on without a final decision!

Regards
---------- ADS -----------

tailgunner
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 pm

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#193 Post by tailgunner » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:19 am

Raymond,
Do you have the final award of costs that the FP60 group owes AC and ACPA?
I would venture that some of the enthusiasm of said members may ebb when they realize that they may have to sign a cheque over to ACPA and AC.....
As always, have a great day.....
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#194 Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:41 pm

Don't bother Ray, he's busy updating the website. :roll:

'It's not pining'!
'It's passed on!
This case is no more!
It has ceased to be!
'It's expired and gone to meet its maker!
'It's a stiff!
Bereft of life
It rests in peace!
If you hadn't nailed it to the perch it'd be pushing up the daisies!
'It's metabolic processes are now history!
'It's off the twig!
It's kicked the bucket
'It's shuffled off 'its mortal coil
Run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!!
THIS IS AN EX-CHRC CASE!!
:lol:
---------- ADS -----------

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#195 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:08 pm

pigboat wrote:Raymond Any guess as to the time frame for the hearings on the remaining 100? The years without a final resolution just keep slipping away. Twenty years on the A.O. lawsuit! It is hard to believe just how long the process can drag on without a final decision! Regards
The issue is currently being dealt with by the Tribunal. We should be able to get an accurate estimate within the next month.
---------- ADS -----------

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#196 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:10 pm

tailgunner wrote:Raymond,
Do you have the final award of costs that the FP60 group owes AC and ACPA?
I would venture that some of the enthusiasm of said members may ebb when they realize that they may have to sign a cheque over to ACPA and AC.....
As always, have a great day.....
Yes I do. It is so small that it is insignificant. It is nothing in comparison to the potential liability of Air Canada and ACPA to an adverse outcome before the Tribunal.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by Raymond Hall on Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#197 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:11 pm

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:Don't bother Ray, he's busy updating the website. :roll:
Robert Townsend wrote:HUBRIS, THE SIN OF
In business, as elsewhere, hubris is the unforgivable sin of acting cocky when things are going well. As the Greeks tiresomely told us, Hubris is followed inexorably and inevitably by Nemesis.
-- Published in his game-changing book, "Up The Organization."
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Bede
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2768
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am
Contact:

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#198 Post by Bede » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:32 am

Hi Ray
What facts are different in the cases of the other 100 or so complainants that would lead you to belive the outcome will be different than the outcome of the recently concluded cases?
---------- ADS -----------

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5335
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#199 Post by ahramin » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:20 am

Bede, my hope would be that even with the same facts the process will be different and lead to a more satisfactory outcome.
---------- ADS -----------

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

#200 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:11 pm

Bede wrote:What facts are different in the cases of the other 100 or so complainants that would lead you to belive the outcome will be different than the outcome of the recently concluded cases?
Sorry to disappoint you, but my participation here is solely to assist in the understanding of the process, not to engage in legal argument.

You could likely get the answer to your question by attending the hearings.
---------- ADS -----------

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”