2016 Course Dates and Positions

[Inverted2]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in all this PML talk is it just means you get an interview. AC has been turning down a surprisingly large amount of folks at Jazz lately from the PML. Doesn't matter if you have 10000 hours, or have been flying Air Canada's passengers for the past 12 years. All comes down to a HR person who likely doesn't know anything about flying putting a check mark or an X beside your name.

[rudder]

AC has been turning down a surprisingly large amount of folks at Jazz lately from the PML.

Do you have any accurate numbers? 10%? 20%? 30%? more?

AC is obliged to make 495 offers (or incurs a financial penalty in the CPA). How many offers have been made so far?

[LTD]

All comes down to a HR person who likely doesn't know anything about flying putting a check mark or an X beside your name.

Hello inverted2,

When I was interviewed at Air Canada, the only two people in the room were two active Air Canada pilots. I must say they were both highly qualified to render judgement on hiring pilots given their extensive experience at Air Canada and in aviation in general and also did an exemplary job during my interview process. No one from any other department was present.

I'm unsure where you get this information about HR arbitrarily marking an X besides your name, much less why you would post such unfounded information. Unless the hiring process has been recently transferred to HR without my knowledge, in that case I would stand corrected.

I would also add that when it comes to a long term piloting position such as one with any major airline, it's not so much about flying, but more about being a great employee and colleague to work with.

Respectfully,

Ltd

[AllClutch]

The last union release suggested about 111 PFOs so far. Thats about 30% of the interviewees.
They are obligated to take 495 out of 715, which means they can PFO about 30% which is what they seem to be doing.

[DBC]

The last union release suggested about 111 PFOs so far. Thats about 30% of the interviewees.
They are obligated to take 495 out of 715, which means they can PFO about 30% which is what they seem to be doing.

Off The Street PFO rates were well above 50% when I was hired a few years ago which I always found a bit surprising. To hear that it is around 30% these days wouldn't be a surprise at all.

[AllClutch]

My completely unqualified theory is that they dont want to gut Jazz fully so they will probably end up with a number close to the contractual minimum. We will never know how people interview behind closed doors but some really good people got PFOd in a row the last round. PFOing also keeps the number of people to recieve make whole pay down.

[Inverted2]

All comes down to a HR person who likely doesn't know anything about flying putting a check mark or an X beside your name.

Hello inverted2,

When I was interviewed at Air Canada, the only two people in the room were two active Air Canada pilots. I must say they were both highly qualified to render judgement on hiring pilots given their extensive experience at Air Canada and in aviation in general and also did an exemplary job during my interview process. No one from any other department was present.

I'm unsure where you get this information about HR arbitrarily marking an X besides your name, much less why you would post such unfounded information. Unless the hiring process has been recently transferred to HR without my knowledge, in that case I would stand corrected.

I would also add that when it comes to a long term piloting position such as one with any major airline, it's not so much about flying, but more about being a great employee and colleague to work with.

Respectfully,

Ltd

It might change from time to time but some of the interviewees have recently had 1 pilot and 1 HR lady on the interviews. Some have had 2 pilots though.

[LTD]

The last union release suggested about 111 PFOs so far. Thats about 30% of the interviewees.
They are obligated to take 495 out of 715, which means they can PFO about 30% which is what they seem to be doing.

Off The Street PFO rates were well above 50% when I was hired a few years ago which I always found a bit surprising. To hear that it is around 30% these days wouldn't be a surprise at all.

Last stat I heard from the hiring department for off the street a couple years ago was 80% PFO rate.. The 30% stated above for Jazz PML seems reasonable and in line with 495 minimum quota.

It is important to highlight it is only a guaranteed interview, unfortunately not a guaranteed job.
Good luck to all.

[rudder]

Last stat I heard from the hiring department for off the street a couple years ago was 80% PFO rate.. The 30% stated above for Jazz PML seems reasonable and in line with 495 minimum quota.

It is important to highlight it is only a guaranteed interview, unfortunately not a guaranteed job.
Good luck to all.

Not quite the same thing as OTS.

Every Jazz PML pilot hired by AC represents a reduction in CPA costs to AC. Therefore, every Jazz PML pilot rejected represents a cost savings opportunity forfeit by AC. In addition, the PML is being marketed as a recruiting tool by Jazz (and the other Express carriers). Therefore, it must be seen to be validated through meaningful employment offer ratios.

As you correctly point out, only the opportunity for an interview is guaranteed.

[loopa]

Posrate, I'd say you're probably the minority of the demographic applying for these jobs. Assuming the level of pay wasn't much of a change for you, it must of meant you came off a 703/704 type operator into Jazz. I think truth of the matter is that the majority going to the Jazz's, EVAS, GGN are solely going there and "putting up" with less than ideal situations in order to flow to the mainline. You may not find the impact in salary leaving a 703/704 gig, but not cracking 40k in the first 3 years at Jazz is not the lifestyle it once produced.

In your argument of going to other CPA's, I think Sky Regional gets the win right now with working conditions. After digging deeper into it, they are making 50k as F/O's, more productive pairings starting May of 2016, quick upgrades, and a PML set in stone after 2 years of service with the company. The nice thing is your travel benefits stay intact when you flow to AC.

I don't know how long term Jazz can be counted on. If I recall correctly there's no plan post 2025 at the moment. There could be longevity there, but there also could not.

I still don't think it makes financial sense for AC to replace 2 seats on a long term basis. For the ones going to the regional's for the mainline flow, I truly believe a light has been created at the end of the tunnel; I just hope this light doesn't end up being a train as it does 9 times out of 10 in our industry.

Either way, we won't know much further today. I'm glad Jazz worked for you PositiveRate27.

G

Posrate, I'd say you're probably the minority of the demographic applying for these jobs. Assuming the level of pay wasn't much of a change for you, it must of meant you came off a 703/704 type operator into Jazz. I think truth of the matter is that the majority going to the Jazz's, EVAS, GGN are solely going there and "putting up" with less than ideal situations in order to flow to the mainline. You may not find the impact in salary leaving a 703/704 gig, but not cracking 40k in the first 3 years at Jazz is not the lifestyle it once produced.

In your argument of going to other CPA's, I think Sky Regional gets the win right now with working conditions. After digging deeper into it, they are making 50k as F/O's, more productive pairings starting May of 2016, quick upgrades, and a PML set in stone after 2 years of service with the company. The nice thing is your travel benefits stay intact when you flow to AC.

I don't know how long term Jazz can be counted on. If I recall correctly there's no plan post 2025 at the moment. There could be longevity there, but there also could not.

I still don't think it makes financial sense for AC to replace 2 seats on a long term basis. For the ones going to the regional's for the mainline flow, I truly believe a light has been created at the end of the tunnel; I just hope this light doesn't end up being a train as it does 9 times out of 10 in our industry.

Either way, we won't know much further today. I'm glad Jazz worked for you PositiveRate27.

Loopa, for a guy who isn't even in ac's 'network', I don't think you're in much of a position to explain how things happen.

You say people come to regionals to put up with less than ideal conditions until ac calls. Well I know that many people have come to the regionals to better their careers before moving on and many have done just that. Also, many have chosen to stay put. Not everyone going wants to work for ac or even wj.

You say sky is the winner? Well jazz Georgian and evas all have their pml's set in stone. Yes sky fo's make more but at evas and Georgian you're getting command MUCH quicker than sky. There's captains at Georgian on the 1900 making very close to, if not reaching 6 figs with on the t4. That's obviously with ot but that's still pretty impressive. I hear evas offers some really good incentives for captains as well. Keeping travel benefits when moving to AC is something all express companies keep. Yes upgrade times at jazz are still longer but that's cuz there's a lot more senior guys sticking around vs moving on. I know a few sky pilots who came from evas and Georgian and they ALL say sky is very similar when it comes to scheduling issues and office bs.

There's no clear cut winner really. It's all a matter of opinion. Kinda funny how you come here telling everyone that their facts are wrong and you try and correct them without even working for an ac 'product'.

Cheerio

I'm not going to drag this out. I have opinions of how I feel this will play out. I have opinions on which option seems to be the best if you get stuck at the CPA carriers. When I said you need to get your facts straight, I was right - because NO body knows how this will actually play out besides the ones in charge of this whole mess.

And it doesn't take one to be in the ac network to know what's going on. Clearly you guys flying within the network don't anyway. Unless you believe everything they tell you. Hunger games anyone? As far as I'm concerned, I am in touch with enough people at the top of the helm to help influence my opinion. All I will say is that this crisis created to provoke everyone to jump to the CPA's is an agenda that's working very well.

I think what's actually happening here is a bunch of you CPA pilot's are taking offence to the opinion that your choice to put up with non sense won't pay off in the end. So I'll take a more politically-correct approach and stop telling you what I think will happen. Didn't know I had such an impact on your emotions. Usually if you take offence to something, it's because you identify yourself with the matter that upset you in the first place. Albeit your AC goals may not pay off through a CPA, a retired 747 captain once told me to just have fun, and the rest will play itself out. I've done exactly just that and it works. In a previous life I also tried approaching my career from a box-ticking perspective, and boy was I bitter in the process. Pick your side I guess. I rather enjoy my career. So if you follow the footsteps of Positiverate27 and go to these CPA's to enjoy the career, it's a good move. If it's simply a box-ticking approach so you can get to AC, it's going to be a very long ... oh wait, I said I was going to be politically correct. Never mind, you'll get to AC.

Fly safe and have fun.

[loopa]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in all this PML talk is it just means you get an interview.

If you read what I said, that's exactly what I said and how it won't pan out for a large portion of CPA pilots. Funny enough the posts underneath your reply seem to be in agreement. Looks like we all agree hehe

Fly safe and have fun.

[flying4dollars]

And it doesn't take one to be in the ac network to know what's going on. Clearly you guys flying within the network don't anyway. Unless you believe everything they tell you. Hunger games anyone? As far as I'm concerned, I am in touch with enough people at the top of the helm to help influence my opinion. All I will say is that this crisis created to provoke everyone to jump to the CPA's is an agenda that's working very well.

I don't think any offence is being taken but you're telling us cpa pilots that we don't know what's going on, yet you believe you do. Our info comes from the top guy of cpa first hand flying, yet you say we shouldn't believe everything we hear. You then say you know enough guys at the top of the helm to influence your opinion. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I wouldn't be so bold as to tell us we don't know what's going on and that you do. So far, everything we've been told is happening, despite a lot of doubt from the armchair quarterbacks. Also, I don't understand what you mean by " I think what's actually happening here is a bunch of you CPA pilot's are taking offence to the opinion that your choice to put up with non sense won't pay off in the end".

What nonsense are we, putting up with?

[altiplano]

I don't think and any of the CPAs are having a difficult time attracting people. They never have. AC doesn't need to dangle any carrots there I'm sure.

One thing we do know though is AC is going to have a huge demand for pilots come 2017. Retirements will accelerate and 737s will be pouring in. In fact we are already starting to see the demand now - with all positions open for new hires up to and including mainline 767 FO. I think with the CPA lists they are really just trying to get a handle on a supply of guys that have a track record for succeeding in the environment - that are able to come into the operation and hit the ground running.

[loopa]

And it doesn't take one to be in the ac network to know what's going on. Clearly you guys flying within the network don't anyway. Unless you believe everything they tell you. Hunger games anyone? As far as I'm concerned, I am in touch with enough people at the top of the helm to help influence my opinion. All I will say is that this crisis created to provoke everyone to jump to the CPA's is an agenda that's working very well.

I don't think any offence is being taken but you're telling us cpa pilots that we don't know what's going on, yet you believe you do. Our info comes from the top guy of cpa first hand flying, yet you say we shouldn't believe everything we hear. You then say you know enough guys at the top of the helm to influence your opinion. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I wouldn't be so bold as to tell us we don't know what's going on and that you do. So far, everything we've been told is happening, despite a lot of doubt from the armchair quarterbacks. Also, I don't understand what you mean by " I think what's actually happening here is a bunch of you CPA pilot's are taking offence to the opinion that your choice to put up with non sense won't pay off in the end".

What nonsense are we, putting up with?

I'll use GGN as an example - why is it that several threads on the company disappears when the truth spills out about working conditions?

Nonsense as in it used to be that Jazz was the end all be all of regional flying in Canada, and now you have to put in far too many years before making a liveable wage / at the expense of maybe getting a shot to interview at AC. You don't think it's nonsense that you have to put in many years at the regionals, and then start at the bottom of a seniority list again? This seriously can't be viewed as "amazing" ...

The list goes on, but I gather in your specific case the light at the end of the tunnel brings about a certain naive outlook that you most definitely will make it to AC. I'll respect your opinion/influence, but will not agree with. You might make it, but you also may not. So make sure you're happy to stay where you're at if the opportunity doesn't present itself.

When the top 1% of the population promises you something, they usually don't deliver on it. It's like when a politician says, "vote for me and I'll lower taxes" ... "come to the CPA's, you'll flow to AC."

If there's anything I want you to take away from my message it's this; go to the CPA carriers because you want to work at that company, not because of AC flow. Because it's a promise that most likely can, and in my opinion will be worth toilet paper when everything is said and done.

I personally agree with alti on the 2017 ordeal to some extent, only that outside hiring will still be in place to fulfil the massive growth/retirement that's about to happen at AC. Let's hang tight and see how this all will unfold in the coming years.

[fruitloops]

This attachment is my understanding of the accessing of the PML at regionals if AC wanted to hire 180 pilots - It's a % of each group of regional pilots - I'm not sure about the current pilot counts maybe someone can tell me what each regional has for #'s and I can update the sheet. I think this is how things will work going forward. These are the positions that would be awarded to each regional. Of course as many have said already - you still have to be the right person for the position, not just at the right regional.

[bobcaygeon]

I don't think and any of the CPAs are having a difficult time attracting people. They never have. AC doesn't need to dangle any carrots there I'm sure.

One thing we do know though is AC is going to have a huge demand for pilots come 2017. Retirements will accelerate and 737s will be pouring in. In fact we are already starting to see the demand now - with all positions open for new hires up to and including mainline 767 FO. I think with the CPA lists they are really just trying to get a handle on a supply of guys that have a track record for succeeding in the environment - that are able to come into the operation and hit the ground running.

Umm have you read anything on the Canadian economy lately? The possibility of a negative interest rate doesn't give me a lot of confidence. 737's can pour in but then Airbuses will be pouring out or parked. 767's will disappear if oil goes up as there are routes that are only profitable using a 767 with low oil prices.

A shitty economy helps no airline.

PS Air Canada and "profitable expansion" have never successfully been used in the same sentence except in the annual report's forecasts that try to separate a fool from his money.

If things are so great why are both AC's and WJ's stock prices taking a nose dive?

[flying4dollars]

And it doesn't take one to be in the ac network to know what's going on. Clearly you guys flying within the network don't anyway. Unless you believe everything they tell you. Hunger games anyone? As far as I'm concerned, I am in touch with enough people at the top of the helm to help influence my opinion. All I will say is that this crisis created to provoke everyone to jump to the CPA's is an agenda that's working very well.

I don't think any offence is being taken but you're telling us cpa pilots that we don't know what's going on, yet you believe you do. Our info comes from the top guy of cpa first hand flying, yet you say we shouldn't believe everything we hear. You then say you know enough guys at the top of the helm to influence your opinion. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I wouldn't be so bold as to tell us we don't know what's going on and that you do. So far, everything we've been told is happening, despite a lot of doubt from the armchair quarterbacks. Also, I don't understand what you mean by " I think what's actually happening here is a bunch of you CPA pilot's are taking offence to the opinion that your choice to put up with non sense won't pay off in the end".

What nonsense are we, putting up with?

I'll use GGN as an example - why is it that several threads on the company disappears when the truth spills out about working conditions?

Nonsense as in it used to be that Jazz was the end all be all of regional flying in Canada, and now you have to put in far too many years before making a liveable wage / at the expense of maybe getting a shot to interview at AC. You don't think it's nonsense that you have to put in many years at the regionals, and then start at the bottom of a seniority list again? This seriously can't be viewed as "amazing" ...

The list goes on, but I gather in your specific case the light at the end of the tunnel brings about a certain naive outlook that you most definitely will make it to AC. I'll respect your opinion/influence, but will not agree with. You might make it, but you also may not. So make sure you're happy to stay where you're at if the opportunity doesn't present itself.

When the top 1% of the population promises you something, they usually don't deliver on it. It's like when a politician says, "vote for me and I'll lower taxes" ... "come to the CPA's, you'll flow to AC."

If there's anything I want you to take away from my message it's this; go to the CPA carriers because you want to work at that company, not because of AC flow. Because it's a promise that most likely can, and in my opinion will be worth toilet paper when everything is said and done.

I personally agree with alti on the 2017 ordeal to some extent, only that outside hiring will still be in place to fulfil the massive growth/retirement that's about to happen at AC. Let's hang tight and see how this all will unfold in the coming years.

I didn't come to Georgian to get a shot with ac. I came here to better my career and support myself, and believe it or not, I've done just that and more. Contrary to your expertise, a lot of folk here came for the same reason and not everyone wants AC or WJ. We've had many move on to corporate, government, travel companies and overseas. Why do ggn threads get shut down? Why does it even matter?

Apart from that, you didn't answer how you know any better than 'us cpa pilots'. You say you get your info from top guys at ac and it's credible enough to your satisfaction, yet the info we get from the horses mouth, again to which so far everything has unfolded the way it was told to us, is unreliable.

I agree you shouldn't apply to a company unless you genuinely want to work here, but having a pma with air Canada certainly sweetens the pot and whether anyone likes it or not, makes sense from a business perspective. I'll repeat, not everyone comes here for Air Canada and those who do are very well aware nothing more than an interview is guaranteed. Nothing in aviation is for that matter. But people who do come here get a lot of perks. Travel benefits, airline experience, and a quick upgrade and progression. If anything, you never walk away empty handed.

[altiplano]

I don't think and any of the CPAs are having a difficult time attracting people. They never have. AC doesn't need to dangle any carrots there I'm sure.

One thing we do know though is AC is going to have a huge demand for pilots come 2017. Retirements will accelerate and 737s will be pouring in. In fact we are already starting to see the demand now - with all positions open for new hires up to and including mainline 767 FO. I think with the CPA lists they are really just trying to get a handle on a supply of guys that have a track record for succeeding in the environment - that are able to come into the operation and hit the ground running.

Umm have you read anything on the Canadian economy lately? The possibility of a negative interest rate doesn't give me a lot of confidence. 737's can pour in but then Airbuses will be pouring out or parked. 767's will disappear if oil goes up as there are routes that are only profitable using a 767 with low oil prices.

A shitty economy helps no airline.

PS Air Canada and "profitable expansion" have never successfully been used in the same sentence except in the annual report's forecasts that try to separate a fool from his money.

If things are so great why are both AC's and WJ's stock prices taking a nose dive?

Agreed a shitty economy helps no airline.

Re:Neg interest Poloz simply stated that he was open to any tool available if situations required, he went on to say he didn't believe the situation required it or would require it.

With a new type - plus all the forecast attrition - there will be a ton of training. I believe their forecasts show more courses required than capacity - In sure they are looking to get it ahead of it. Ben Smith has also stated they like the metrics of the 321. In fact they have a bunch of new ones so expect a mixed narrow body fleet moving forward.

767s aren't going anywhere for now - they are cheap cheap to have around too - they've been paid for. So there is no rush moving them out when they can be so versatile and compliment the newer fleet with swing capacity and spares. Oil is down again today, I expect it will stay down certainly if the economy will be dragging... The rest of your comment is just carrying on... I guess we'll see.

AC is and will be taking a lot of guys - and I think most observers know that.

[scopiton]

If things are so great why are both AC's and WJ's stock prices taking a nose dive?

They're diving because the TSX is diving. Not because they're not profitable. Just read the latest Q Report.
Believe it or not, you better step in now if you wanna buy at a good price, WJA is reaching a year low with price to book ratio close to 1.3. For a company showing a near 10% of ROIC for the last 20 years, it's a good discount if you ask me.

[loopa]

I didn't come to Georgian to get a shot with ac. I came here to better my career and support myself, and believe it or not, I've done just that and more. Contrary to your expertise, a lot of folk here came for the same reason and not everyone wants AC or WJ. We've had many move on to corporate, government, travel companies and overseas. Why do ggn threads get shut down? Why does it even matter?

Apart from that, you didn't answer how you know any better than 'us cpa pilots'. You say you get your info from top guys at ac and it's credible enough to your satisfaction, yet the info we get from the horses mouth, again to which so far everything has unfolded the way it was told to us, is unreliable.

I agree you shouldn't apply to a company unless you genuinely want to work here, but having a pma with air Canada certainly sweetens the pot and whether anyone likes it or not, makes sense from a business perspective. I'll repeat, not everyone comes here for Air Canada and those who do are very well aware nothing more than an interview is guaranteed. Nothing in aviation is for that matter. But people who do come here get a lot of perks. Travel benefits, airline experience, and a quick upgrade and progression. If anything, you never walk away empty handed.

Great post, I'm glad to see you guys are aware that the AC light at the end of the tunnel isn't necessarily the light you were looking for. That puts this debate to an end I think - we agree with one and another, just worded differently.

I don't think listing whom we socialize with or hear our news from defines credibility; what defines credibility is when we see what actually unfolds when the 2017 wave hits. Let's touch base on the matter when the "flow" is happening. In the meantime it sounds like you're really enjoying your career at GGN and are able to look at it with a positive outlook. I just hope the GGN threads aren't getting shut down due terrible working conditions being given the light of day in a public spectrum.

Keep up the good attitude and fly safe f4d. The two go hand-in-hand and usually rewards you with a spectacular career. And it seems to me that you have a good head on your shoulders; albeit AC might not be it, but I think good things are coming your way.