Career options while facing a DUI charge.

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ryan19
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Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#1 Post by ryan19 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:03 am

Just so i don't get eaten alive, here's the situation. I blew 0.10 after a mens leauge game and am now charged. I am fighting it and hope to get it reduced or acquitted but its going to take some time. I realize it was a huge mistake and now i've got to deal with it.

In the mean time i am looking at my options. I have done quite a bit of research and i'm unsure,
-if i can qualify for a RAIC pass,
-what specific background checks the airlines do,
-if current charges will show up in a major airlines check (theres a new bill 113 which is unclear on the matter),
-could i explain my situation to them?

I would really appreciate a reply if you are knowledgable on the topic. I realize what a huge mistake it was and if you are just commenting to lecture me, believe me i'm paying out the as* for my actions. We are all human and make mistakes. I didn't realize how fast 3 beers could change my life.

Thanks.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#2 Post by Confliction » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:39 pm

Might be some info in this thread if I copied it correctly...

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=105721
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#3 Post by Old fella » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:51 pm

Only thing I can suggest to you is contact a qualified criminal defense lawyer who has experience in dealing with DUI and defended individuals like yourself who face charges. Qualified lawyers know the criminal code very well and will certainly advise you on your rights and repercussions if you are found guilty. Public forums are not the avenue for such discussions,your attorney will probably tell you to stay off social media and blog sites.........and save your act of contrition for court.

Now if you are trolling................
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#4 Post by fish4life » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:07 pm

Only issue I have heard with a RAIC is you can't get a temporary pass while you wait for your full one.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#5 Post by altiplano » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:56 pm

1- get a lawyer specialising in DUI defence.

2- if you are convicted do not travel to the US until you are able to apply/receive a pardon... if the Americans learn of your conviction it will be a life of problems, even if you're later granted a pardon.

3- once you get a pardon in the eyes of employers it never happened and they can't ask.

4- I don't think it will affect your RAIC.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#6 Post by cory_trevor » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:02 pm

altiplano wrote:1- get a lawyer specialising in DUI defence.

2- if you are convicted do not travel to the US until you are able to apply/receive a pardon... if the Americans learn of your conviction it will be a life of problems, even if you're later granted a pardon.

3- once you get a pardon in the eyes of employers it never happened and they can't ask.

4- I don't think it will affect your RAIC.
#2 is incorrect. You do not need a pardon from a DUI to travel to the USA and you will not have any problems as long as you are honest when they ask if you have ever been arrested.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#7 Post by Airband » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:28 pm

A previous item regarding DUI & RAIC:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 31&t=86713
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#8 Post by altiplano » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:00 pm

cory_trevor wrote:
#2 is incorrect. You do not need a pardon from a DUI to travel to the USA and you will not have any problems as long as you are honest when they ask if you have ever been arrested.
You miss my point. I didn't say you couldn't be admitted, but save yourself a career of troubles.

Once you travel to the US and you are asked and admit to a conviction it is on your file with them forever - no matter if there is a subsequent pardon in Canada.

In your career you'll go through US customs so much that it will just save you a lot of hassle if you don't have to explain yourself...

Additionally, a prerequisite of employment is "the ability to travel unrestricted to the United States". While a single DUI may not required a waiver presently, it has in the past, may again in the future. Canada doesn't admit Americans with DUIs without a waiver...
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#9 Post by AirFrame » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:25 pm

The reality is, telling yourself "it was nothing, how do I get around it and forget about it?" is the wrong thing. You can't un-break an egg, you were busted doing something rather stupid. Part of the cost of that mistake is that it's going to follow you around. Knowing that's what happens is part of the deterrent to doing it in the first place.

Don't want the hassle? Don't drink and drive. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#10 Post by PROC_HDG » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:37 am

I can't add any practical information to this, but don't let the keyboard warriors on here get you down. Without rehabilitation, we are a failed society. I hope your mistake makes you a better person in the long run, and wish you nothing but success in the future.

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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#11 Post by Cat Driver » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:03 am

Sorry Chuck, I removed your comment to try and keep this on track.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#12 Post by TG » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:22 am

radubc wrote:1+1=3. That's a mistake. DUI is a crime. You did it, live with it. I definitely wouldn't want to fly with a pilot with no logical thinking. I'm sure there are more people who think like me.
I don't think like you.

radubc, take the time to read this post below and hopefully you will review your judgement.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/2568 ... ost3028059
On a side note, it is followed by a post from Chuck E. (aka Cat Driver)

I would fly with them any time without a single question.
And learn a lot about flying at the same time.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#13 Post by rxl » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:25 am

PROC_HDG wrote: Without rehabilitation, we are a failed society.
PROC_HDG
Isn't this - thankfully - one of the cornerstones of our criminal justice system?
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#14 Post by Inverted2 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:42 am

Get a good lawyer. Spend lots of $$$. Win the case. I know of a few guys who got their DUI charges thrown out who went to fly at a major Canadian airline.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#15 Post by DanWEC » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:44 pm

I've been in this arena in all sorts of ways. Friends on both sides of the equation. I had a friend die at 22 from a psycho who hit her head-on at 7am while she was on her way to work. He was high on coke and fall down drunk. I've also had friends unfairly labelled with criminal records because of bumping the limit after only a drink or two.

People, especially those over 40, might think of a DUI and conviction as the old style where you're falling out of your car door, and just hit a street pole. That's what it took to get charged 30 years ago.
The current criminal system involving alcohol and driving is different, and broken. Under the current regime, people no longer have to be intoxicated or impaired in order to be charged. A person having no signs whatsoever of impairment, can now be charged with "Over 80". Which actually explicitly implies zero impairment but a BAC of over .05. It carries the same criminal record as a DUI.
But wait! You might ask, if you aren't impaired, you feel fine, then what are you doing wrong? No intent? Heck, not even any knowledge of an infraction? Good question. It's well known that different people can have radically different BAC's based on the same number of drinks. It's also well known that different people can show radically different levels of impairment from the same BAC. I've seen people blow after many drinks and not come close to the limit. Some seem drunk others don't. I've also seen people blow over after 2 drinks. Again some seem completely sober others don't. Makes your head spin a bit.

So here we have a yardstick with a huge arbitrary component being applied to people, to the point where someone who has only two drinks, cuts themselves off at that point, is perfectly fine in all respects with zero impairments whatsoever, can go through a ride program and BAM, is now branded a lifelong criminal with all the goodies that go along with that. This is not a joke, and a very serious issue.

Police reported impairment charges dropped quite a bit from 1980 to late 90's, but they have been unchanged for almost 20 years now. Almost 50,000 cases per year clog our court system. 14% of all criminal charges excluding the Territories. It is by far the highest proportion of all charges in the court system. Something is very wrong here.

Here's the biggest problem. It's not the people blowing .05 that are causing the fatal accidents. 40% of fatally injured drivers have alcohol in their system. Of that 40%: Only 15% of those drivers had BAC's below .08, 30% between .08-.160, and 55% are OVER .160. That's bombed.
That proportion is more than double the lower segments combined. Here is the REAL problem: This 3 part proportion has remained virtually unchanged in 50 years. So now, all you have is a system in place now that is making lifelong criminals out of people who aren't impaired, but this has had ZERO effect on the people who are actually KILLING other people's friends and families. It's an incredibly frustrating, broken system. Unfortunately, arguing the reality of this is a pretty unpopular viewpoint, until people actually pay attention to the numbers and realize what's going on.
(By the way, all of these statistics are available on Transport Canada's website)

I've resigned myself to a hard limit of one single drink if driving, just because of the uncertainty of being charged.

On the other side of things, regarding people that really do have a drinking problem, there is a clinical aspect to alcoholism that has proven a physiological brain chemistry aspect that makes is almost impossible for those to resist alcohol. There was a David Suzuki segment on CBC this week called "Addicted" that was pretty informative and makes me sympathize. Those people describe that it can take a lot of willpower and a lifelong battle to resist, but that's a different topic.

Now, for the OP, Were you charged with Over 80 or DUI? Same implications, just different proofs. Also, there is about a .02 variance that a lawyer can argue, if you're at .10 you might be in good position with a lawyer. Talk to a good one, not a cheap one. It's your life you're playing with.
Many of the defenses for these charges have been taken away by the courts. Unconstitutional? Sure, but they keep groups like MADD happy. (Fun fact, the founder and CEO of MADD left the organization years ago citing it's "Become radical".) 4 out of 5 court proceedings end up in a guilty verdict.

RAIC- It's fine. As mentioned, Pass control can't grant you a temporary, which might require affect some positions till it comes through.
Travelling to the States- As mentioned, 100% fine. Only issue is once you do pass with the conviction on your record, the US CBP computer polls CPIC and it's on there for good. That's fine for now, but you never know if laws will change in the future. If you can magically avoid the border until you get a "pardon", which is 5 years after the conviction... then you have nothing to worry about at all.
Getting a job- This will vary by operator. It will be easier once a pardon is granted.
Current charges show up under local police checks, I can't say with 100% certainty but I don't believe they are in CPIC for the basis of a background check. Someone else might know better. I can't advise on what to say to an employer other than as with everything in aviation, honesty and transparency is important to me, but every situation is different.

Good luck, don't let people like the above poster try to beat you down even more when you're already probably feeling the lowest of your life. It should be an upward journey now, not a downward one. Life goes on. and I bet your drinking decisions are changed for the rest of your life as well.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#16 Post by radubc » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:13 pm

I removed your posts. Before you go off about attitude regarding this topic you should know something about me. I was a 35 year career paramedic who over his career saw way more death and destruction then one man should at the hands of drinking drivers and was even hit by an impaired driver. There are some out there that you will never fix, they simply do not care. I have seen this kind of person many times. The person that started this thread has demonstrated that he/she is not proud of what he/ she did, that is clear. Hopefully a lesson is learned and they go on with life. Of all the people on here I feel that I have the mileage to comment. Time will tell. A DUI is a wake up call for many to examine what is really important in their lives.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#17 Post by DanWEC » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:22 pm

It's true, he certainly made a mistake, but the crux of what I'm saying is that when it's that close, some people don't even realize that they're even remotely near the limit and may be fine for all intents and purposes. I'm not defending his actions, but using BAC as a guide is a bit like using a rubber band as a yo yo string. Better off just to not push it. Live and learn. Hopefully he does.

Here's a real criminal: http://windsor.ctvnews.ca/reliving-a-tr ... -1.1864016. The previously mentioned psycho. Amazingly enough he did it again after getting out of jail.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#18 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:56 pm

Now, DUI shows poor judgement and planning. I don't see any valid argument aginst this fact. The fact that it happened to Cat Driver or any other diety on the forum doesn't make it right.
This subject is just far to more important to allow the above comment to go unchallenged.

First off radubc I am not a deity I am a normal human being that is not infallible and therefore subject to becoming addicted to any drug which I was.

Alcohol is a drug that is deadly even though it is legal in Canada.

I was addicted to alcohol and tried for years to quit drinking including A.A. which for me did not work.

However in January of 1985 I committed myself to Shick Shadel Hospital in Seattle WA. where I went through their addiction program.

The cure worked for me and allowed me to continue to work as a pilot until I retired in 2005 with an unblemished safety record and over thirty thousand flying hours.

To this day I have never had a drink of any alcoholic beverage and have zero desire to now or in the future.

Alcoholism is an illness that can be cured and allow the alcoholic to live a normal life.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#19 Post by radubc » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:09 pm

That's exactly the thing. Alcohol impairs the judgement and you take the wrong decisions. This is why you make the decisions BEFORE you drink. Decisions like: no more than one beer (which happens to be my rule too), or: I' going to a game and I want to drink, so my car stays home.

I'm not talking about crazy idiots here, where the things are obvious. I'm talking about people who are reactive (get a lawyer) instead of being proactive (don't drink, leave the car home).

Another thing. If the OP wanted to be an accountant, lawyer, or even doctor, I wouldn't say anything. But you have to admit that things are different for pilots, or bus drivers for example.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#20 Post by radubc » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:21 pm

Chuck, there is a huge difference between your attitude and the one of the OP. You say: I have a problem, I have to solve it. He sais: I have a problem, I have to get away wit it. In your case, the problem is unlikely to repeat. In his case it is likely to happen again, knowing that it worked once.

And another thing. If your problem was that bad and you solved it, you are an exception (ok, I might regret this later :lol: ). You can't le everybody off with it because it worked for you. The laws are written according to general behaviour of people, not exceptions).
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#21 Post by Cat Driver » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:33 pm

I definitely wouldn't want to fly with a pilot with no logical thinking. I'm sure there are more people who think like me.
I responded to this statement radubic because I find it to be excessively judgmental.
That's exactly the thing. Alcohol impairs the judgement and you take the wrong decisions. This is why you make the decisions BEFORE you drink.
Drug addiction makes normal people unable to control their need for the drug.....they are suffering from an illness which prevents them from making normal decisions.

An addict that has been cured will return to a normal mental process and be able to make normal decisions.

To be quite honest with you I found your comment that you would not fly with someone who has been convicted of drunk driving to be insulting to those of us who were addicted and on our own sought treatment and were cured of our illness.
The fact that it happened to Cat Driver or any other diety on the forum.
Once again I do not consider myself to be a deity, I was a professional pilot that made it to the top of the industry and retired because I could afford to.

So my thinking process can not be all that flawed.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#22 Post by Cat Driver » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:46 pm

To the poster who started this thread, I am through with my comments here and hope you read what I have said and having made a mistake fix it and go on with your career. :mrgreen:
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#23 Post by radubc » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:54 pm

Your thinking may be all that flawed. You are good on your niche (flying), which creates you one kind of mental maps, that may not squarely fit with other fields.

We are talking about different things. You are talking about alcohol addiction. I don't think that's the case here. I'm talking about poor judgement of a person who is not addicted but he still drinks. The difference is that an addicted person is able to arrange for alternate transportation before is too late. I had a perfect example in my family and I'm telling you, it works. An addicted person can have good judgement if sober.

And another thing. I don't have anything against a pilot who drinks. I'm perfectly OK with it as long as he is sober at the controls. What I don't like is when someone gets charged with driving (or flying) under influence and wants to get away with it just because.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#24 Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:18 pm

With respect to the above discussion, I won’t get into a discussion of the merits of points raised or of the fact situation, but I will make a comment with respect to seeking legal advice.

Lawyers, like any other professional group, have individuals who focus almost their entire work in very limited areas of legal practice. This area is no different. Given the significance of the potential adverse consequences to one’s career, if one ever faces the scenario set out at the beginning of this thread, in my view, one would be well advised to seek out the advice of a professional who is not only highly skilled but highly experienced in that specific area of the law, even if that means having to spend more money than one might have originally anticipated.

I will offer some general comments on the relevant legal framework in issue here, from my experience and practical knowledge of the law in these matters.

There are two separate legal schemes used in Canada with respect to alcohol limits and operating vehicles (aircraft, cars, boats etc.).

By far the more significant is the Criminal Code provision. A Criminal Code conviction leaves one with a criminal record that goes into the CPIC system (and will likely stay there forever, with few limited exceptions) and will show up when you give an employer consent to submit to a criminal record check prior to employment. To my understanding, Canada shares a great deal of criminal information with the USA, so most likely the conviction will be registered in the USA system.

I don’t believe that it would be wise to assume that a potential employer will not learn of a conviction, so full disclosure, transparency and forthrightness is likely the better option.

A few years ago I had a client with a criminal record who was planning to make a trip into the USA. I made inquiries with the U.S. Customs and Immigration Branch on the person’s behalf prior to the individual’s planned trip. I asked if the specific criminal record in issue in that case would automatically prevent the individual from entering the USA. Answer: No. Only “crimes of moral turpitude” result in absolute denial (Wikipedia provides an extensive listing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude.

Nevertheless, there is a great deal of discretion on the part of the border personnel. An otherwise clean record and a considerable passage of time since the conviction is treated quite favourably, but a simple DUI conviction does not unduly raise concerns, to my understanding.

The second scheme in place, in use in B.C., for example, is the Immediate Roadside Prohibition (“IRP”) scheme. If you are stopped and requested to produce a breath sample, you are provided no Charter of Rights advice (i.e. you do not have a right to seek the advice of counsel prior to giving the breath sample(s)). If you blow a WARN or a FAIL, there is an immediate impoundment of the vehicle (even if it is not your vehicle) and an immediate forfeiture of your driver licence. Apparently a reading of 0.06 to 0.10 gives the WARN result and a reading of over 0.10 gives the FAIL result (the extra 0.01 to 0.02 for 0.05 and 0.08 limits is apparently intended to provide a margin for potential device error). The screening device does not specify a numerical readout.

Immediate driving prohibition and impoundment of your vehicle results from either a WARN or a FAIL reading, but no legal proceeding is initiated under the Criminal Code, so the penalties are administrative, not criminal and one does not wind up with a criminal record as a result. However, the penalties are significant.

A FAIL reading results in a 30-day impoundment of the vehicle (towing and storage charges can be expected to be over $800), there is a 90-day suspension of licence and a $500 fine. Further, the Minister has the ability to force the individual to take a remediation course (cost, about $800) and to participate in the Ignition Interlock System (install a breath recorder in your vehicle for one year, prohibit you from driving any vehicle without the interlock system installed, give the system periodic breath samples such as prior to turning on the ignition, download the results to their web site, then pay for its removal at the end of the year—cost, about $1,700). Total: almost $4,000. The IRP stays on your driving record forever, but only the previous five years of your driving record is available live, to the police.

Notwithstanding the IRP program, the police still have the option of requiring you to give a breath sample on the certified equipment (in their mobile unit, or at the police station), should they choose to do so—i.e. they may opt to proceed by way of the Criminal Code procedure, should they deem it appropriate (such as after an accident, especially one causing bodily injury or death).

As with other endeavors, avoiding getting into such a problem situation is obviously far, far less troublesome and less expensive than extricating oneself from it afterwards. Remember the old adage, the superior pilot is one who exercises his or her superior knowledge to selectively avoid situations requiring the use of his or her superior skill.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

#25 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:06 am

See, this is what kills you credibility in my opinion.
Well lets start with who we are.

I use my real name on these forums and also the names of a few of my past clients especially on Pprune, so far no one has challenged the truthfulness of my posts.
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