Career options while facing a DUI charge.

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Cat Driver
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Cat Driver »

I definitely wouldn't want to fly with a pilot with no logical thinking. I'm sure there are more people who think like me.
I responded to this statement radubic because I find it to be excessively judgmental.
That's exactly the thing. Alcohol impairs the judgement and you take the wrong decisions. This is why you make the decisions BEFORE you drink.
Drug addiction makes normal people unable to control their need for the drug.....they are suffering from an illness which prevents them from making normal decisions.

An addict that has been cured will return to a normal mental process and be able to make normal decisions.

To be quite honest with you I found your comment that you would not fly with someone who has been convicted of drunk driving to be insulting to those of us who were addicted and on our own sought treatment and were cured of our illness.
The fact that it happened to Cat Driver or any other diety on the forum.
Once again I do not consider myself to be a deity, I was a professional pilot that made it to the top of the industry and retired because I could afford to.

So my thinking process can not be all that flawed.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Cat Driver »

To the poster who started this thread, I am through with my comments here and hope you read what I have said and having made a mistake fix it and go on with your career. :mrgreen:
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by radubc »

Your thinking may be all that flawed. You are good on your niche (flying), which creates you one kind of mental maps, that may not squarely fit with other fields.

We are talking about different things. You are talking about alcohol addiction. I don't think that's the case here. I'm talking about poor judgement of a person who is not addicted but he still drinks. The difference is that an addicted person is able to arrange for alternate transportation before is too late. I had a perfect example in my family and I'm telling you, it works. An addicted person can have good judgement if sober.

And another thing. I don't have anything against a pilot who drinks. I'm perfectly OK with it as long as he is sober at the controls. What I don't like is when someone gets charged with driving (or flying) under influence and wants to get away with it just because.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Raymond Hall »

With respect to the above discussion, I won’t get into a discussion of the merits of points raised or of the fact situation, but I will make a comment with respect to seeking legal advice.

Lawyers, like any other professional group, have individuals who focus almost their entire work in very limited areas of legal practice. This area is no different. Given the significance of the potential adverse consequences to one’s career, if one ever faces the scenario set out at the beginning of this thread, in my view, one would be well advised to seek out the advice of a professional who is not only highly skilled but highly experienced in that specific area of the law, even if that means having to spend more money than one might have originally anticipated.

I will offer some general comments on the relevant legal framework in issue here, from my experience and practical knowledge of the law in these matters.

There are two separate legal schemes used in Canada with respect to alcohol limits and operating vehicles (aircraft, cars, boats etc.).

By far the more significant is the Criminal Code provision. A Criminal Code conviction leaves one with a criminal record that goes into the CPIC system (and will likely stay there forever, with few limited exceptions) and will show up when you give an employer consent to submit to a criminal record check prior to employment. To my understanding, Canada shares a great deal of criminal information with the USA, so most likely the conviction will be registered in the USA system.

I don’t believe that it would be wise to assume that a potential employer will not learn of a conviction, so full disclosure, transparency and forthrightness is likely the better option.

A few years ago I had a client with a criminal record who was planning to make a trip into the USA. I made inquiries with the U.S. Customs and Immigration Branch on the person’s behalf prior to the individual’s planned trip. I asked if the specific criminal record in issue in that case would automatically prevent the individual from entering the USA. Answer: No. Only “crimes of moral turpitude” result in absolute denial (Wikipedia provides an extensive listing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude.

Nevertheless, there is a great deal of discretion on the part of the border personnel. An otherwise clean record and a considerable passage of time since the conviction is treated quite favourably, but a simple DUI conviction does not unduly raise concerns, to my understanding.

The second scheme in place, in use in B.C., for example, is the Immediate Roadside Prohibition (“IRP”) scheme. If you are stopped and requested to produce a breath sample, you are provided no Charter of Rights advice (i.e. you do not have a right to seek the advice of counsel prior to giving the breath sample(s)). If you blow a WARN or a FAIL, there is an immediate impoundment of the vehicle (even if it is not your vehicle) and an immediate forfeiture of your driver licence. Apparently a reading of 0.06 to 0.10 gives the WARN result and a reading of over 0.10 gives the FAIL result (the extra 0.01 to 0.02 for 0.05 and 0.08 limits is apparently intended to provide a margin for potential device error). The screening device does not specify a numerical readout.

Immediate driving prohibition and impoundment of your vehicle results from either a WARN or a FAIL reading, but no legal proceeding is initiated under the Criminal Code, so the penalties are administrative, not criminal and one does not wind up with a criminal record as a result. However, the penalties are significant.

A FAIL reading results in a 30-day impoundment of the vehicle (towing and storage charges can be expected to be over $800), there is a 90-day suspension of licence and a $500 fine. Further, the Minister has the ability to force the individual to take a remediation course (cost, about $800) and to participate in the Ignition Interlock System (install a breath recorder in your vehicle for one year, prohibit you from driving any vehicle without the interlock system installed, give the system periodic breath samples such as prior to turning on the ignition, download the results to their web site, then pay for its removal at the end of the year—cost, about $1,700). Total: almost $4,000. The IRP stays on your driving record forever, but only the previous five years of your driving record is available live, to the police.

Notwithstanding the IRP program, the police still have the option of requiring you to give a breath sample on the certified equipment (in their mobile unit, or at the police station), should they choose to do so—i.e. they may opt to proceed by way of the Criminal Code procedure, should they deem it appropriate (such as after an accident, especially one causing bodily injury or death).

As with other endeavors, avoiding getting into such a problem situation is obviously far, far less troublesome and less expensive than extricating oneself from it afterwards. Remember the old adage, the superior pilot is one who exercises his or her superior knowledge to selectively avoid situations requiring the use of his or her superior skill.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

See, this is what kills you credibility in my opinion.
Well lets start with who we are.

I use my real name on these forums and also the names of a few of my past clients especially on Pprune, so far no one has challenged the truthfulness of my posts.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by DanWEC »

Man, this thread started with an individual asking for help and information about aviation related employment, and requesting an absence of off-topic prejudicial comments.
Then a poster exactly contradicted that request with a single narrow minded sweeping comment and nothing to contribute. Sure, everyone's entitled to their opinion. We had what seemed like a normal exchange in response. Then a successfully recovered alcoholic responded simply by stating his his own experience, with facts, without any aggression, and subsequently had their words twisted and was directly attacked on a personal level by the same person, who has contributed nothing here but inflammatory responses. What's the point? I have nothing against you personally radubc, but c'mon man, we wonder why things get so off topic and look like a bunch of idiots.... :roll:
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by bandaid »

So a person comes in here and asks a serious question about an event in their life that he/she is clearly not proud about and the self righteous, never done a bad thing in their life person comes in here and decides to make it all about him/her.
Here is what the person who started this post asked:
-if i can qualify for a RAIC pass,
-what specific background checks the airlines do,
-if current charges will show up in a major airlines check (theres a new bill 113 which is unclear on the matter),
-could i explain my situation to them?

I would really appreciate a reply if you are knowledgable on the topic.

If you have an answer to some or all of these questions, please, feel free. If your coming in here to mock then before you do that, take a walk to the mirror and look at yourself carefully and ask yourself if at any one point in your life this could have been you? Hopefully the rest of the comments will address the above questions.
Good luck Ryan.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by radubc »

Not answering the OP's original question
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Rockie »

ryan19 wrote:In the mean time i am looking at my options. I have done quite a bit of research and i'm unsure,

-if i can qualify for a RAIC pass,
Yes you can

-what specific background checks the airlines do,
None that I'm aware of except checking references and past employers

-if current charges will show up in a major airlines check (theres a new bill 113 which is unclear on the matter),
I don't know, and it doesn't matter because...

-could i explain my situation to them?
You must explain the situation to them
People make mistakes and airlines know that. This kind of conviction won't impede your ability to cross into the United States or any other border that I'm aware of so that isn't a barrier to employment. What is a barrier is lying about it. Even if you successfully hid this from them and got hired, if they found out at anytime in the future you will be fired. Try getting a job again after that....

Be up front about it and admit your mistake. They will ask the particulars and be honest about that as well. Accept full responsibility because trying to blame the cop or anything else for your mistake will give them a bad feeling about you.

Bottom line, this is not a career killer. But you cannot hide from it because that is.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Cat Driver »

Further to my story, Rockie is correct.

A drunk driving conviction is only a problem with foreign immigration inspectors if you lie about
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote: Bottom line, this is not a career killer. But you cannot hide from it because that is.
That's what the say about politics... it's not the sin that gets you, it's the cover-up afterwards.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Old fella »

"Just so i don't get eaten alive, here's the situation. I blew 0.10 after a mens leauge game and am now charged. I am fighting it and hope to get it reduced or acquitted but its going to take some time. I realize it was a huge mistake and now i've got to deal with it."

Well if your above statement is correct, then you are NOT GUILTY of anything yet. Guilt/Innocence is determined in a court of law so it bears repeating, consult a qualified Criminal Defence Attorney on DUI and let he/she determine course of action including Constitutional Rights. As a very close friend(CDA) told me in conversation, DUI process is very complicated.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by SuperchargedRS »

DanWEC wrote:I've been in this arena in all sorts of ways. Friends on both sides of the equation. I had a friend die at 22 from a psycho who hit her head-on at 7am while she was on her way to work. He was high on coke and fall down drunk. I've also had friends unfairly labelled with criminal records because of bumping the limit after only a drink or two.

People, especially those over 40, might think of a DUI and conviction as the old style where you're falling out of your car door, and just hit a street pole. That's what it took to get charged 30 years ago.
The current criminal system involving alcohol and driving is different, and broken. Under the current regime, people no longer have to be intoxicated or impaired in order to be charged. A person having no signs whatsoever of impairment, can now be charged with "Over 80". Which actually explicitly implies zero impairment but a BAC of over .05. It carries the same criminal record as a DUI.
But wait! You might ask, if you aren't impaired, you feel fine, then what are you doing wrong? No intent? Heck, not even any knowledge of an infraction? Good question. It's well known that different people can have radically different BAC's based on the same number of drinks. It's also well known that different people can show radically different levels of impairment from the same BAC. I've seen people blow after many drinks and not come close to the limit. Some seem drunk others don't. I've also seen people blow over after 2 drinks. Again some seem completely sober others don't. Makes your head spin a bit.

So here we have a yardstick with a huge arbitrary component being applied to people, to the point where someone who has only two drinks, cuts themselves off at that point, is perfectly fine in all respects with zero impairments whatsoever, can go through a ride program and BAM, is now branded a lifelong criminal with all the goodies that go along with that. This is not a joke, and a very serious issue.

Police reported impairment charges dropped quite a bit from 1980 to late 90's, but they have been unchanged for almost 20 years now. Almost 50,000 cases per year clog our court system. 14% of all criminal charges excluding the Territories. It is by far the highest proportion of all charges in the court system. Something is very wrong here.

Here's the biggest problem. It's not the people blowing .05 that are causing the fatal accidents. 40% of fatally injured drivers have alcohol in their system. Of that 40%: Only 15% of those drivers had BAC's below .08, 30% between .08-.160, and 55% are OVER .160. That's bombed.
That proportion is more than double the lower segments combined. Here is the REAL problem: This 3 part proportion has remained virtually unchanged in 50 years. So now, all you have is a system in place now that is making lifelong criminals out of people who aren't impaired, but this has had ZERO effect on the people who are actually KILLING other people's friends and families. It's an incredibly frustrating, broken system. Unfortunately, arguing the reality of this is a pretty unpopular viewpoint, until people actually pay attention to the numbers and realize what's going on.
(By the way, all of these statistics are available on Transport Canada's website)

I've resigned myself to a hard limit of one single drink if driving, just because of the uncertainty of being charged.

On the other side of things, regarding people that really do have a drinking problem, there is a clinical aspect to alcoholism that has proven a physiological brain chemistry aspect that makes is almost impossible for those to resist alcohol. There was a David Suzuki segment on CBC this week called "Addicted" that was pretty informative and makes me sympathize. Those people describe that it can take a lot of willpower and a lifelong battle to resist, but that's a different topic.

Now, for the OP, Were you charged with Over 80 or DUI? Same implications, just different proofs. Also, there is about a .02 variance that a lawyer can argue, if you're at .10 you might be in good position with a lawyer. Talk to a good one, not a cheap one. It's your life you're playing with.
Many of the defenses for these charges have been taken away by the courts. Unconstitutional? Sure, but they keep groups like MADD happy. (Fun fact, the founder and CEO of MADD left the organization years ago citing it's "Become radical".) 4 out of 5 court proceedings end up in a guilty verdict.

RAIC- It's fine. As mentioned, Pass control can't grant you a temporary, which might require affect some positions till it comes through.
Travelling to the States- As mentioned, 100% fine. Only issue is once you do pass with the conviction on your record, the US CBP computer polls CPIC and it's on there for good. That's fine for now, but you never know if laws will change in the future. If you can magically avoid the border until you get a "pardon", which is 5 years after the conviction... then you have nothing to worry about at all.
Getting a job- This will vary by operator. It will be easier once a pardon is granted.
Current charges show up under local police checks, I can't say with 100% certainty but I don't believe they are in CPIC for the basis of a background check. Someone else might know better. I can't advise on what to say to an employer other than as with everything in aviation, honesty and transparency is important to me, but every situation is different.

Good luck, don't let people like the above poster try to beat you down even more when you're already probably feeling the lowest of your life. It should be an upward journey now, not a downward one. Life goes on. and I bet your drinking decisions are changed for the rest of your life as well.

Very well put.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by rigpiggy »

Last employment app I did had a box with "confirm no criminal convictions or outstanding charges" or something to that extent.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by BE20 Driver »

DanWEC wrote:
The current criminal system involving alcohol and driving is different, and broken. Under the current regime, people no longer have to be intoxicated or impaired in order to be charged. A person having no signs whatsoever of impairment, can now be charged with "Over 80". Which actually explicitly implies zero impairment but a BAC of over .05. It carries the same criminal record as a DUI.
But wait! You might ask, if you aren't impaired, you feel fine, then what are you doing wrong? No intent? Heck, not even any knowledge of an infraction? Good question. It's well known that different people can have radically different BAC's based on the same number of drinks. It's also well known that different people can show radically different levels of impairment from the same BAC. I've seen people blow after many drinks and not come close to the limit. Some seem drunk others don't. I've also seen people blow over after 2 drinks. Again some seem completely sober others don't. Makes your head spin a bit.

So here we have a yardstick with a huge arbitrary component being applied to people, to the point where someone who has only two drinks, cuts themselves off at that point, is perfectly fine in all respects with zero impairments whatsoever, can go through a ride program and BAM, is now branded a lifelong criminal with all the goodies that go along with that. This is not a joke, and a very serious issue.
...
It's not the people blowing .05 that are causing the fatal accidents. 40% of fatally injured drivers have alcohol in their system. Of that 40%: Only 15% of those drivers had BAC's below .08, 30% between .08-.160, and 55% are OVER .160. That's bombed.
I have to say this bothers me a lot.

The current system is not arbitrarily set. It is set at .08 as this is where an average person begins to show intoxication. We can't just say that drivers at .08 only have small accidents and not large fatal ones, so .08 is ok. What is the alternate to the .08 rule? Who decides what is ok, you, or the government?

This has nothing to do with the OP but more to do with the attitude that it's a stupid rule and I think it should be set at some other level because I haven't had an accident yet.

If it were up to me, the limit would be 0.00 if you are operating any vehicle. We don't accept drinking a couple of drinks and going flying. I don't know why it is different in a car.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by AirFrame »

DanWEC wrote:It's not the people blowing .05 that are causing the fatal accidents. 40% of fatally injured drivers have alcohol in their system. Of that 40%: Only 15% of those drivers had BAC's below .08, 30% between .08-.160, and 55% are OVER .160. That's bombed.
6% of the fatally injured drivers were below .08 (15%x40%). Some of those must have been .05. So at least *some* of the fatal accidents are caused by people who would blow .05.
BE20 Driver wrote:We don't accept drinking a couple of drinks and going flying. I don't know why it is different in a car.
Why, indeed...
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by DanWEC »

It's a very small segment, but with the same punishments, which I see as disproportionate. What's the point of a person at .08 getting the same punishment as a person at .20 and vice versa?
And, despite harsher punishments on the lower end, it hasn't had any effect on the more intoxicated, more dangerous drivers.

Bottom line- I think the system should be scaled more than it currently is, just as speeding fines increase with the amount over, accurately reflecting the danger and severity of the infraction.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by AirFrame »

DanWEC wrote:It's a very small segment, but with the same punishments, which I see as disproportionate. What's the point of a person at .08 getting the same punishment as a person at .20 and vice versa?
Because the fatal accident that's caused is just as fatal whether the driver is blowing .08 or .20.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Raymond Hall »

DanWEC wrote:...despite harsher punishments on the lower end, it hasn't had any effect on the more intoxicated, more dangerous drivers. Bottom line- I think the system should be scaled more than it currently is, just as speeding fines increase with the amount over, accurately reflecting the danger and severity of the infraction.
The penalties are not always the same. The circumstances of the violation under the Criminal Code can be and usually are taken into consideration in the sentencing of offenders.
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Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by SuperchargedRS »

It just a matter of your Rolodex and bank roll, you can buy as much justice as you can afford.

I'd wager if you have a few cop friends and or $20,000 ish to invest in justice, you'll be fine.

Also this might not even be a real DUI or a crime.

I believe you need a victim for a crime and I didn't see where any persons or property were damaged.

As for being drunk, I don't know, there are some folks who have like one drink and are a mess, others who can drink all day long and go about their day without even being able to tell that had a single drink. The DUI thing has more to do with revenue generation then the illusion of safety.
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