Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by DanWEC »

Man, this thread started with an individual asking for help and information about aviation related employment, and requesting an absence of off-topic prejudicial comments.
Then a poster exactly contradicted that request with a single narrow minded sweeping comment and nothing to contribute. Sure, everyone's entitled to their opinion. We had what seemed like a normal exchange in response. Then a successfully recovered alcoholic responded simply by stating his his own experience, with facts, without any aggression, and subsequently had their words twisted and was directly attacked on a personal level by the same person, who has contributed nothing here but inflammatory responses. What's the point? I have nothing against you personally radubc, but c'mon man, we wonder why things get so off topic and look like a bunch of idiots.... :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
bandaid
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2396
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Kelowna

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by bandaid »

So a person comes in here and asks a serious question about an event in their life that he/she is clearly not proud about and the self righteous, never done a bad thing in their life person comes in here and decides to make it all about him/her.
Here is what the person who started this post asked:
-if i can qualify for a RAIC pass,
-what specific background checks the airlines do,
-if current charges will show up in a major airlines check (theres a new bill 113 which is unclear on the matter),
-could i explain my situation to them?

I would really appreciate a reply if you are knowledgable on the topic.

If you have an answer to some or all of these questions, please, feel free. If your coming in here to mock then before you do that, take a walk to the mirror and look at yourself carefully and ask yourself if at any one point in your life this could have been you? Hopefully the rest of the comments will address the above questions.
Good luck Ryan.
---------- ADS -----------
 
radubc
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 6:01 pm

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by radubc »

Not answering the OP's original question
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Rockie »

ryan19 wrote:In the mean time i am looking at my options. I have done quite a bit of research and i'm unsure,

-if i can qualify for a RAIC pass,
Yes you can

-what specific background checks the airlines do,
None that I'm aware of except checking references and past employers

-if current charges will show up in a major airlines check (theres a new bill 113 which is unclear on the matter),
I don't know, and it doesn't matter because...

-could i explain my situation to them?
You must explain the situation to them
People make mistakes and airlines know that. This kind of conviction won't impede your ability to cross into the United States or any other border that I'm aware of so that isn't a barrier to employment. What is a barrier is lying about it. Even if you successfully hid this from them and got hired, if they found out at anytime in the future you will be fired. Try getting a job again after that....

Be up front about it and admit your mistake. They will ask the particulars and be honest about that as well. Accept full responsibility because trying to blame the cop or anything else for your mistake will give them a bad feeling about you.

Bottom line, this is not a career killer. But you cannot hide from it because that is.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Cat Driver »

Further to my story, Rockie is correct.

A drunk driving conviction is only a problem with foreign immigration inspectors if you lie about
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote: Bottom line, this is not a career killer. But you cannot hide from it because that is.
That's what the say about politics... it's not the sin that gets you, it's the cover-up afterwards.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Old fella »

"Just so i don't get eaten alive, here's the situation. I blew 0.10 after a mens leauge game and am now charged. I am fighting it and hope to get it reduced or acquitted but its going to take some time. I realize it was a huge mistake and now i've got to deal with it."

Well if your above statement is correct, then you are NOT GUILTY of anything yet. Guilt/Innocence is determined in a court of law so it bears repeating, consult a qualified Criminal Defence Attorney on DUI and let he/she determine course of action including Constitutional Rights. As a very close friend(CDA) told me in conversation, DUI process is very complicated.
---------- ADS -----------
 
SuperchargedRS
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:30 am
Location: the stars playground

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by SuperchargedRS »

DanWEC wrote:I've been in this arena in all sorts of ways. Friends on both sides of the equation. I had a friend die at 22 from a psycho who hit her head-on at 7am while she was on her way to work. He was high on coke and fall down drunk. I've also had friends unfairly labelled with criminal records because of bumping the limit after only a drink or two.

People, especially those over 40, might think of a DUI and conviction as the old style where you're falling out of your car door, and just hit a street pole. That's what it took to get charged 30 years ago.
The current criminal system involving alcohol and driving is different, and broken. Under the current regime, people no longer have to be intoxicated or impaired in order to be charged. A person having no signs whatsoever of impairment, can now be charged with "Over 80". Which actually explicitly implies zero impairment but a BAC of over .05. It carries the same criminal record as a DUI.
But wait! You might ask, if you aren't impaired, you feel fine, then what are you doing wrong? No intent? Heck, not even any knowledge of an infraction? Good question. It's well known that different people can have radically different BAC's based on the same number of drinks. It's also well known that different people can show radically different levels of impairment from the same BAC. I've seen people blow after many drinks and not come close to the limit. Some seem drunk others don't. I've also seen people blow over after 2 drinks. Again some seem completely sober others don't. Makes your head spin a bit.

So here we have a yardstick with a huge arbitrary component being applied to people, to the point where someone who has only two drinks, cuts themselves off at that point, is perfectly fine in all respects with zero impairments whatsoever, can go through a ride program and BAM, is now branded a lifelong criminal with all the goodies that go along with that. This is not a joke, and a very serious issue.

Police reported impairment charges dropped quite a bit from 1980 to late 90's, but they have been unchanged for almost 20 years now. Almost 50,000 cases per year clog our court system. 14% of all criminal charges excluding the Territories. It is by far the highest proportion of all charges in the court system. Something is very wrong here.

Here's the biggest problem. It's not the people blowing .05 that are causing the fatal accidents. 40% of fatally injured drivers have alcohol in their system. Of that 40%: Only 15% of those drivers had BAC's below .08, 30% between .08-.160, and 55% are OVER .160. That's bombed.
That proportion is more than double the lower segments combined. Here is the REAL problem: This 3 part proportion has remained virtually unchanged in 50 years. So now, all you have is a system in place now that is making lifelong criminals out of people who aren't impaired, but this has had ZERO effect on the people who are actually KILLING other people's friends and families. It's an incredibly frustrating, broken system. Unfortunately, arguing the reality of this is a pretty unpopular viewpoint, until people actually pay attention to the numbers and realize what's going on.
(By the way, all of these statistics are available on Transport Canada's website)

I've resigned myself to a hard limit of one single drink if driving, just because of the uncertainty of being charged.

On the other side of things, regarding people that really do have a drinking problem, there is a clinical aspect to alcoholism that has proven a physiological brain chemistry aspect that makes is almost impossible for those to resist alcohol. There was a David Suzuki segment on CBC this week called "Addicted" that was pretty informative and makes me sympathize. Those people describe that it can take a lot of willpower and a lifelong battle to resist, but that's a different topic.

Now, for the OP, Were you charged with Over 80 or DUI? Same implications, just different proofs. Also, there is about a .02 variance that a lawyer can argue, if you're at .10 you might be in good position with a lawyer. Talk to a good one, not a cheap one. It's your life you're playing with.
Many of the defenses for these charges have been taken away by the courts. Unconstitutional? Sure, but they keep groups like MADD happy. (Fun fact, the founder and CEO of MADD left the organization years ago citing it's "Become radical".) 4 out of 5 court proceedings end up in a guilty verdict.

RAIC- It's fine. As mentioned, Pass control can't grant you a temporary, which might require affect some positions till it comes through.
Travelling to the States- As mentioned, 100% fine. Only issue is once you do pass with the conviction on your record, the US CBP computer polls CPIC and it's on there for good. That's fine for now, but you never know if laws will change in the future. If you can magically avoid the border until you get a "pardon", which is 5 years after the conviction... then you have nothing to worry about at all.
Getting a job- This will vary by operator. It will be easier once a pardon is granted.
Current charges show up under local police checks, I can't say with 100% certainty but I don't believe they are in CPIC for the basis of a background check. Someone else might know better. I can't advise on what to say to an employer other than as with everything in aviation, honesty and transparency is important to me, but every situation is different.

Good luck, don't let people like the above poster try to beat you down even more when you're already probably feeling the lowest of your life. It should be an upward journey now, not a downward one. Life goes on. and I bet your drinking decisions are changed for the rest of your life as well.

Very well put.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rigpiggy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2858
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:17 pm
Location: west to east and west again

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by rigpiggy »

Last employment app I did had a box with "confirm no criminal convictions or outstanding charges" or something to that extent.
---------- ADS -----------
 
BE20 Driver
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by BE20 Driver »

DanWEC wrote:
The current criminal system involving alcohol and driving is different, and broken. Under the current regime, people no longer have to be intoxicated or impaired in order to be charged. A person having no signs whatsoever of impairment, can now be charged with "Over 80". Which actually explicitly implies zero impairment but a BAC of over .05. It carries the same criminal record as a DUI.
But wait! You might ask, if you aren't impaired, you feel fine, then what are you doing wrong? No intent? Heck, not even any knowledge of an infraction? Good question. It's well known that different people can have radically different BAC's based on the same number of drinks. It's also well known that different people can show radically different levels of impairment from the same BAC. I've seen people blow after many drinks and not come close to the limit. Some seem drunk others don't. I've also seen people blow over after 2 drinks. Again some seem completely sober others don't. Makes your head spin a bit.

So here we have a yardstick with a huge arbitrary component being applied to people, to the point where someone who has only two drinks, cuts themselves off at that point, is perfectly fine in all respects with zero impairments whatsoever, can go through a ride program and BAM, is now branded a lifelong criminal with all the goodies that go along with that. This is not a joke, and a very serious issue.
...
It's not the people blowing .05 that are causing the fatal accidents. 40% of fatally injured drivers have alcohol in their system. Of that 40%: Only 15% of those drivers had BAC's below .08, 30% between .08-.160, and 55% are OVER .160. That's bombed.
I have to say this bothers me a lot.

The current system is not arbitrarily set. It is set at .08 as this is where an average person begins to show intoxication. We can't just say that drivers at .08 only have small accidents and not large fatal ones, so .08 is ok. What is the alternate to the .08 rule? Who decides what is ok, you, or the government?

This has nothing to do with the OP but more to do with the attitude that it's a stupid rule and I think it should be set at some other level because I haven't had an accident yet.

If it were up to me, the limit would be 0.00 if you are operating any vehicle. We don't accept drinking a couple of drinks and going flying. I don't know why it is different in a car.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by AirFrame »

DanWEC wrote:It's not the people blowing .05 that are causing the fatal accidents. 40% of fatally injured drivers have alcohol in their system. Of that 40%: Only 15% of those drivers had BAC's below .08, 30% between .08-.160, and 55% are OVER .160. That's bombed.
6% of the fatally injured drivers were below .08 (15%x40%). Some of those must have been .05. So at least *some* of the fatal accidents are caused by people who would blow .05.
BE20 Driver wrote:We don't accept drinking a couple of drinks and going flying. I don't know why it is different in a car.
Why, indeed...
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by DanWEC »

It's a very small segment, but with the same punishments, which I see as disproportionate. What's the point of a person at .08 getting the same punishment as a person at .20 and vice versa?
And, despite harsher punishments on the lower end, it hasn't had any effect on the more intoxicated, more dangerous drivers.

Bottom line- I think the system should be scaled more than it currently is, just as speeding fines increase with the amount over, accurately reflecting the danger and severity of the infraction.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by AirFrame »

DanWEC wrote:It's a very small segment, but with the same punishments, which I see as disproportionate. What's the point of a person at .08 getting the same punishment as a person at .20 and vice versa?
Because the fatal accident that's caused is just as fatal whether the driver is blowing .08 or .20.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Raymond Hall
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Raymond Hall »

DanWEC wrote:...despite harsher punishments on the lower end, it hasn't had any effect on the more intoxicated, more dangerous drivers. Bottom line- I think the system should be scaled more than it currently is, just as speeding fines increase with the amount over, accurately reflecting the danger and severity of the infraction.
The penalties are not always the same. The circumstances of the violation under the Criminal Code can be and usually are taken into consideration in the sentencing of offenders.
---------- ADS -----------
 
SuperchargedRS
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:30 am
Location: the stars playground

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by SuperchargedRS »

It just a matter of your Rolodex and bank roll, you can buy as much justice as you can afford.

I'd wager if you have a few cop friends and or $20,000 ish to invest in justice, you'll be fine.

Also this might not even be a real DUI or a crime.

I believe you need a victim for a crime and I didn't see where any persons or property were damaged.

As for being drunk, I don't know, there are some folks who have like one drink and are a mess, others who can drink all day long and go about their day without even being able to tell that had a single drink. The DUI thing has more to do with revenue generation then the illusion of safety.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Raymond Hall
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Raymond Hall »

SuperchargedRS wrote:It just a matter of your Rolodex and bank roll, you can buy as much justice as you can afford. I'd wager if you have a few cop friends and or $20,000 ish to invest in justice, you'll be fine.
After practising law for more that 25 years, seeing justice meted out while working both inside the system and outside the system, I must respectfully disagree with you. It is correct to say that the quality of one's legal representation can make a substantial difference to the way a charge evolves and in the eventual judicial decision, depending on the facts and on the legal knowledge and advocacy skills of one's counsel with respect to the applicable law. But there is no magic bullet. One cannot buy oneself an outcome, at any price, no matter who you know.

One of my mentors succinctly put it this way. He replied to me one day when we were entering court after I had suggested that we were in a very strong position on the facts and law of the case in particular, "Don't ever think when you walk through these doors that it is going to be anything but a crap shoot. Be prepared, but be prepared to be challenged and surprised."

The proposition that justice is for sale simply does not accord with my belief, with my knowledge or with my experience, period. Your suggestion that the Canadian legal system is inherently corrupt amounts to a slander on the reputation of most, if not all of the participants. Many of my law classmates are judges. One is currently a Minister of Justice. One is the Chief Justice of Manitoba. Each, whom I have watched for decades, without exception, has resolutely defended their professional integrity and professional performance, without exception. One of my former partners, on appointment as a Federal Court judge, gave up one of his most cherished passions, golf. He quit the local golf club because, as he explained to me, he simply could not take the risk of appearing on the bench before anyone, lawyer or client, whom he had been associated with in his former personal life, no matter how remote.

Even the Prime Minister failed to overcome the law when his proposed appointee to the Supreme Court of Canada was denied by the Court on the basis of a simple motion filed by a lone private attorney. If there ever were an example of how little privilege matters in the law, that must surely be one.
SuperchargedRS wrote:Also this might not even be a real DUI or a crime.
Suggest that to someone who just lost all of their children to a drunk driver.
SuperchargedRS wrote:I believe you need a victim for a crime and I didn't see where any persons or property were damaged.
One of the key elements of statutory and criminal code prohibitions is deterrence, particularly where the perpetrator's actions result in an inability to make rational decisions and/or to react in a safe and timely manner to events on the highway. Society is the victim. The risk of grievous bodily harm or loss of life is sufficient.
SuperchargedRS wrote:As for being drunk, I don't know, there are some folks who have like one drink and are a mess, others who can drink all day long and go about their day without even being able to tell that had a single drink.
Even if others don't perceive the impact, the machine knows, and performance is inversely related to the amount of alcohol in one's system, regardless of the perception of others.
SuperchargedRS wrote:The DUI thing has more to do with revenue generation then the illusion of safety.
Wrong again. The "DUI thing" is all about preventing the slaughter that would otherwise occur without effective laws to counter it. Convictions for impaired driving do not even necessarily result in fines, and there is no revenue generation resulting from incarceration--in fact, the cost to society is substantial. There is no illusion about the safety of an impaired driver--science, facts and history resolved that debate long ago.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by DanWEC »

Mr. Hall, as a law professional, I'd be interested to hear more on your take of the current system. Specifically, the proportionality and prudence of adding the criminal conviction in all it's severity, to an Over 80, compared to it's efficacy as a deterrent considering the volume of cases that are now, in no uncertain terms, clogging the courts. Is there a better way?

Cheers,
Dan
---------- ADS -----------
 
Raymond Hall
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Raymond Hall »

DanWEC wrote:I'd be interested to hear more on your take of the current system. Specifically, the proportionality and prudence of adding the criminal conviction in all it's severity, to an Over 80, compared to it's efficacy as a deterrent considering the volume of cases that are now, in no uncertain terms, clogging the courts. Is there a better way?
Well, this thread is about the impact of a conviction for DUI (an American term) on the potential for career progression in the piloting profession in Canada. So I am a little reluctant to get too much into philosophical discussions about the legal system here, as that would tend to hijack the thread.

A very short answer might suffice. Transport Canada, by its regulations, has zero tolerance. One cannot have any alcohol in one’s system when performing one’s function under its licensing authority. Zero. Good regulation, in my view. Booze and flying simply do not mix. And if one is not able to keep them separate, one does not deserve to be afforded the privilege to exercise the rights of one's licence, professional or otherwise. It is not asking too much of anyone to be 100% competent to perform one's job.

Law, in its evolution, is generally a response to, or a reflection of, a social need. Collectively, as a society, we need to prevent murder, fraud, assault and a myriad of other prejudices to the rights of the individual members of our society, including the harm created by motor manslaughter. The issue is really not about the need; rather it is about the implementation. Some laws may go too far. Some may not go far enough. Some individuals may suffer consequences disproportionate to their own circumstances. But that doesn’t alter the need to have the laws in place, to protect the public.

Is there a better way? Probably. Law is continually evolving. Most jurisdictions in Canada have Law Reform Commissions empowered to recommend changes to laws to their respective governments.

As well, different political parties have different philosophies and methodologies. In short, law is evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Yes, there is probably a better way. I believe that the biggest future impact to law will be the improvisation to prevent transgressions, not to correct them. But that, strictly speaking, is a social issue. And that opens a whole new discussion.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
single_swine_herder
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by single_swine_herder »

It is excellent to see you supply information Mr. Hall.

My personal tolerance for DWI is less than zero. I was a passenger in a car at a stop light which was struck from the 4 o'clock position and I was off work for close to four months and suffered a concussion which had me wondering for about six weeks of deep anguish if I would ever be able to return to the cockpit.

When someone comes forward and advocates that DWI has no victims, it drives me wild.

Try being a cop that has to go to a door at 2 AM and tell a wife that her husband was killed on the drive home when T-Boned at an intersection by a drunk. One of the pilots that worked at our outfit had to do that several times.

SSH
---------- ADS -----------
 
Raymond Hall
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Career options while facing a DUI charge.

Post by Raymond Hall »

single_swine_herder wrote:I was a passenger in a car at a stop light which was struck from the 4 o'clock position and I was off work for close to four months and suffered a concussion which had me wondering for about six weeks of deep anguish if I would ever be able to return to the cockpit.
Yours is not an isolated incident. I have had several clients in my office with similar histories.

In my view, most people do not understand the severe consequences or the probability of negative outcome of such an experience. The reality is that everything that one has planned from one's teenage years, career and otherwise, comes into question, not as result of one's own failings, but rather, as a result of circumstance--being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”