Getting hired

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DHC3Rwannafly
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Getting hired

#1 Post by DHC3Rwannafly » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:37 pm

So seeing the bid of 321 spots, is it possible to get hired as someone OTS? Would air canada put a job posting up, or would they have enough in their OTS pool and pml to fill? If they use up the OTS will they need to start interviewing OTS candidates to keep the pool filled?
Thanks, from a clueless OTS guy....
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Sky_Conqueror
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Re: Getting hired

#2 Post by Sky_Conqueror » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:57 pm

When did the bid come out? I believe AC has started to hire to fill these positions through the PML. Thats why the AC Regionals are also hiring.
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LTD
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Re: Getting hired

#3 Post by LTD » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:51 pm

The bid has been open for a couple days now and the final positions assignments should be published in mid-February. When it's all said and done, these 320 open positions will remain available for new hires and are proof that there is lots of hiring to come. There will be another equipment bid every two months for the foreseeable futur as per the contract with Acpa. Pilots from Jazz and other express carriers have already been hired ever since the Jazz contract was signed sometime in 2015 (I forget the exact date).

As for getting hired OTS, with the current contract/PML with Jazz and Other express carriers, I'd say it is highly unlikely to get hired OTS for at least another year, probably more Given the 80% minimum hiring from jazz only, and much/all of the remaining 20% coming from the existing pool of OTS candidates and other express carriers.

Now, as for what a Is the best way to get hired from a current OTS situation, hard to tell. Maybe apply at an express carrier, apply at Jazz, or keep your current job and hope for OTS hiring to resume sooner rather than later. There is no good answer to this question. Do what works best for your personal situation and remember whatever path you chose, things could change along the way (such as slow economy leading to slower growth/hiring...)

Whichever way you cut it, getting hired from OTS is unfortunately highly unlikely anytime soon.
Hope this help....
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bruced007
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Re: Getting hired

#4 Post by bruced007 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:23 pm

The flowthrough from Jazz was purely cost driven to help put the new jazz pilots on the new low scale of pay...AC is hiring guys from there and PFO's not caz they are not good pilots but just caz they don't need that many right now... They will continue flowthrough to show attraction to new applicants to join jazz/express and until they have enough of the old guys to sustain a new lower payscale at Jazz, as for OTS well AC will need about at least 800-1000pilots starting 2017 over the next 6-8 years due to retirements/expansion so I guess OTS will start end of this year ... As for the flowthrough spending money on a guy to train them at Jazz/express and retrain them for AC over a short time will eventually add up to total costs
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dirk82
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Re: Getting hired

#5 Post by dirk82 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:06 pm

With the numbers projected for flow thru is it going to be sustainable for the express carriers to loose that many to AC in such a short time? All of the express carriers have slashed the min requirements to a heart beat and a CPL with a splash of turbine SIC time to fill GS already. If the hiring frenzy is yet to come I cant imagine AC can just keep raping the experienced pilots from its feeders. AC would to pull from every direction for the next 5-7 years and at some point let the express carriers stablize. I don't think it really matters what your flying in the next 5 years its going to be a pretty easy gig to move upwards
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Re: Getting hired

#6 Post by Rowdy » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:20 pm

dirk, i've watched the jazz classes for the past few months. the one before, mine and the two after all have friends in them. Haven't seen anyone yet without 2k in the book.. our class in particular had some higher time guys.. So a cpl and a heartbeat is far from the truth.

It'll be interesting to see what pans out after the current PML list is exhausted. I know GGN/Sky reg are set up.. jazz is in the works and I believe they want to continue with this path as it gets people to take the hit to fly for the regionals before progressing to the greener (seeming) pastures at AC mainline.
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Re: Getting hired

#7 Post by Inverted2 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:42 pm

It's a brilliant move (by management). Pilots will be screwed by lousy wages at an AC Express carrier for let's say ~ 4 years give or take then if you get chosen to go to AC you get another 4 years of lousy flat pay. So assuming you get hired at a regional and put 4 years in you will be at least 8 years before you make 100k/yr.
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Re: Getting hired

#8 Post by YQkC » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:17 pm

I personally know 5+ guys who all just went to Jazz with between 1400-2000 hours and no ATPL. They're all banking on PICUS. Any outlook on how long it might take to get enough PICUS to get your A's?
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Re: Getting hired

#9 Post by skypirate88 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:41 pm

YQkC wrote:I personally know 5+ guys who all just went to Jazz with between 1400-2000 hours and no ATPL. They're all banking on PICUS. Any outlook on how long it might take to get enough PICUS to get your A's?
I have highlighted the PICUS part. Doesn't help with the time estimate, but now you know how much time they will be able to log

CARs 421.34 - (4) Experience

An applicant shall have met the training requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane that is not restricted to daylight flying and completed a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes. The total flight time shall include a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;
(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;
(c) 100 additional hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command or 200 hours as co-pilot or any combination thereof, with flight time calculated in accordance with section 421.10. Flight time as pilot-in-command may be part of the 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time specified in paragraph (a); and
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)
(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.
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dashtrash1
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Re: Getting hired

#10 Post by dashtrash1 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:42 am

As far as I know, you can only do PICUS with training Captains. As they're extremely busy right now, good luck getting PICUS for the time being.
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Re: Getting hired

#11 Post by domino » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:31 am

One guy I know of who started at Jazz in November has been flying with mostly line check captains after his line check and has already logged all of his picus he needed for the A's (close to 100 hours)
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Re: Getting hired

#12 Post by fish4life » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:29 am

So let me get this straight some guy new to a company and new to flying 705 is logging PICUS? If he is that new I highly doubt he is making ANY PIC decisions... I thought it was for people close to an upgrade where they were a few hours short. This PICUS seems like it isn't being used for the intended purpose if new guys are logging it, they might as well just drop the PIC requirements if they allow that as PICUS.
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Re: Getting hired

#13 Post by domino » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:32 am

Well he wasn't new to 705 flying just new to Jazz. And the picus is solely used for the 250pic required for the atpl, which you could also get doing circuits in a 150. You probably learn more doing picus at Jazz with a line check captain who is assessing your ability and mentoring you on being pic of the aircraft then you would flying 100 hours in the circuit
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loopa
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Re: Getting hired

#14 Post by loopa » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:02 pm

Inverted2 wrote:It's a brilliant move (by management). Pilots will be screwed by lousy wages at an AC Express carrier for let's say ~ 4 years give or take then if you get chosen to go to AC you get another 4 years of lousy flat pay. So assuming you get hired at a regional and put 4 years in you will be at least 8 years before you make 100k/yr.
The best part about all of this is that it says "for a possible career path for those who aspire to become pilots for Air Canada", apply to the associated email. If you interpret it, AC hasn't actually dangled any carrots. They've been pretty frank and candid in telling you that this is all for a possible career. In my opinion, that means the writing is on the wall. They will continue taking a few outside the Jazz PML to prevent attrition. But given that all of this was initially done for a cost savings approach at Jazz, it's my opinion that when the express carriers are fat/dumb/happy to fly the routes that were taken away from AC, that it only makes sense to shift hiring to OTS again. Why place the cost of replacement on your own business model when you can place it on say an Encore? or Sunwing? Transat? etc.

One could argue that because they saved money on removing salaries at Jazz, that it's financially viable to move guys from Express quickly so that it doesn't become an expensive model again. That could be a valid point, but removing top salaries at Jazz only begins making Express a comparable competition model with Encore; to sustain competitiveness they have to still be careful about doubling their replacement costs, as the case would be if this actually turns into a full-blown "flow."

They are targeting young and impressionable pilot's that will fall for the AC glory by going to these express carriers.

I'm curious to see what happens when the music stops at the express level while AC goes into indefinite retirement mode. As observed across many airlines, crew requirements are not only aircraft based, but time based as well. If you reduce fleet utilization by 1 hour due to our economy, wonder how many jobs would be in excess. That would only mean a trickle down effect not for only all pilot's in Canada, but especially those that decided to put up with regional WAWCON's today to make it to AC in 2-3 years. I think the deeper message here is go to these regionals because you plan on staying there, so that if this "possible" career with AC doesn't pan out, you don't end up being bitter with a chip on your shoulders. It's a very ambiguous career move to base your mainline career on a stop at the regionals. If I was debating going to a regional today for AC, I'd wait 2-3 years and see what actually pans out when AC starts hiring like crazy. If this possible career turns out being something that is actually true and consistent, then I bite my tongue and agree that the route to AC will be through express only.

My 2 cents anyway.
Well he wasn't new to 705 flying just new to Jazz. And the picus is solely used for the 250pic required for the atpl, which you could also get doing circuits in a 150. You probably learn more doing picus at Jazz with a line check captain who is assessing your ability and mentoring you on being pic of the aircraft then you would flying 100 hours in the circuit
This is a very good and true statement. I actually think that besides using PICUS for simply meeting ATPL requirements, that PICUS should be used in general to assess F/O's that are close to their upgrades. This empowers the F/O to start calling the shots in a supervised environment, so that the experience from the training captain can help mend and shape the F/O's mindset for the left seat, if needed. It's a much superior system in my opinion than relying on someone's multi-pic flying a king air as a benchmark towards the type of thinking and decision making abilities that are required of a 705 captain. So I agree fully with you domino.
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Re: Getting hired

#15 Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:41 pm

I think those "young and impressionable" would certainly be making a good move to most any 705 airline in this country over the bullshit operations flogging Beeches and Metros and the like around the countryside.

Especially an AC feeder.

- decent flight passes, benefits, stability and they are good jobs in themselves, plus an opportunity to advance to mainline. Pay is similar with other similar 705 ops in the country...

Oh and PICUS is BS. You either are or you aren't.
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Re: Getting hired

#16 Post by fish4life » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:21 pm

I get PICUS for guys close to the upgrade anyway what I don't get is this your new but you need an ATPL so we will just say your PIC US that doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Getting hired

#17 Post by mbav8r » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:52 pm

Loopa, you've spouted this misinformation before and frankly it's pure conjecture, the AC hiring, regardless of what you might think will be 80% from the express airlines for at least the next 10 years. This is written into the contract, written, not some execs Twitter account, not a rumour you heard from your second cousins best friends dentist, it's inked into a contract.
How do you suppose they are supposed to get around this?
Next, it is no longer a cost plus arrangement between Jazz and AC which means the cost of hiring and training is built into what they are charging, in other words it won't cost AC anything to hire from Jazz, in fact, the more they hire from the first PML has big cost savings built in, so if you think that your odds are better waiting it out, I think you'll find it to be a long and possibly costly wait for you.
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Re: Getting hired

#18 Post by atphat » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:59 pm

the Loopa has thoughts. Thoughts he must share in long form unedited. Facts be damned!
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Re: Getting hired

#19 Post by loopa » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:08 am

mbav8r wrote:Loopa, you've spouted this misinformation before and frankly it's pure conjecture, the AC hiring, regardless of what you might think will be 80% from the express airlines for at least the next 10 years. This is written into the contract, written, not some execs Twitter account, not a rumour you heard from your second cousins best friends dentist, it's inked into a contract.
How do you suppose they are supposed to get around this?
Next, it is no longer a cost plus arrangement between Jazz and AC which means the cost of hiring and training is built into what they are charging, in other words it won't cost AC anything to hire from Jazz, in fact, the more they hire from the first PML has big cost savings built in, so if you think that your odds are better waiting it out, I think you'll find it to be a long and possibly costly wait for you.
The contract you speak of is solely for Jazz's initial 495 movements. Right? It doesn't include EVAS/GGN/SKY. Those companies aren't financial liabilities. In fact they were created to become competitive in the regional market. The "word" is that another PML V2.0 will be created when the initial 495 movements have occurred. And the original reason for all of this PML was to make jazz more cost effective due to the salaries at the top. Right?

So making a career move based on a possible career at AC is at best, a speculation that you'll actually get there.
atphat wrote:the Loopa has thoughts. Thoughts he must share in long form unedited. Facts be damned!
:lol:
altiplano wrote:Pay is similar with other similar 705 ops in the country...
I didn't know 34k/yr is the 705 benchmark in Canada. Sunwing and Transat to name a couple.
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Re: Getting hired

#20 Post by rudder » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:55 am

Lowest 705 ops staring pay is any CPA carrier in Canada. Every other 705 operator has it about right, at least by the second year.

CPA carriers have evolved to no longer being 'career' employers. They are simply a stop along the way or the consolation prize when flying for a major is not in the cards. Such is the nature of that segment of the industry.

The impending pilot supply shortage or potentially expanded unionization will be the only dynamics that influence WAWCON at the CPA carriers.
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Re: Getting hired

#21 Post by PositiveRate27 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:34 pm

loopa wrote:
mbav8r wrote:Loopa, you've spouted this misinformation before and frankly it's pure conjecture, the AC hiring, regardless of what you might think will be 80% from the express airlines for at least the next 10 years. This is written into the contract, written, not some execs Twitter account, not a rumour you heard from your second cousins best friends dentist, it's inked into a contract.
How do you suppose they are supposed to get around this?
Next, it is no longer a cost plus arrangement between Jazz and AC which means the cost of hiring and training is built into what they are charging, in other words it won't cost AC anything to hire from Jazz, in fact, the more they hire from the first PML has big cost savings built in, so if you think that your odds are better waiting it out, I think you'll find it to be a long and possibly costly wait for you.
The contract you speak of is solely for Jazz's initial 495 movements. Right? It doesn't include EVAS/GGN/SKY. Those companies aren't financial liabilities. In fact they were created to become competitive in the regional market. The "word" is that another PML V2.0 will be created when the initial 495 movements have occurred. And the original reason for all of this PML was to make jazz more cost effective due to the salaries at the top. Right?

So making a career move based on a possible career at AC is at best, a speculation that you'll actually get there.
atphat wrote:the Loopa has thoughts. Thoughts he must share in long form unedited. Facts be damned!
:lol:
altiplano wrote:Pay is similar with other similar 705 ops in the country...
I didn't know 34k/yr is the 705 benchmark in Canada. Sunwing and Transat to name a couple.

Its been stated a few times, its not just a "word" or a "rumor". The second PML is written into the contract. There is a legal document stating that AC will create a second PML once the first one is exhausted.

There is no guarantee everyone on the PML will be hired. You will need to pass the complete AC hiring process. If you are not successful you can stay at Jazz with the ability to reach the top pay scale the previous generation enjoyed. It will take longer to reach but you will still enjoy industry leading benefits and working conditions along the way. All of this will be renegotiated in 2025 when the contract expires. These conditions could could change for the worse, or the better. The state of the industry will dictate that.

Those are the facts people should be basing their career decisions on.
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Re: Getting hired

#22 Post by loopa » Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:25 am

Besides "rumours" there's no indication as to what the details of this PML V2 will actually be when/if it goes into effect. So there again, at best, this could be a hiring attraction for the regional airlines. Come here on the basis that when V2 happens, you'll possibly get to AC. Clearly anyone going over to any express carrier today is not part of the current 495-PML.

So to discriminate the fact then, I'd appreciate if you could direct a link to where this information is actually is concurrent. And since people are making career moves based on this factual information, there should be a public press release of the sort. Not hearsay on an aviation forum. Otherwise, all this is, is the promise of a PML V2. I don't know how long you've observed the airline industry? But promises tend to be broken a lot when the opportunity to make more money / slashing costs present themselves.

Honestly, for the sake of everyone at the express carriers and everyone trying to go there for AC, I hope I'm wrong. And I hope that the light at the end of the tunnel doesn't turn out being a train. I just want the message to be widespread that if you go the express route, be okay with staying there.
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Re: Getting hired

#23 Post by anonymity » Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:50 am

My understanding is that a union contract is public information, so I'm sure you could find it, however this is from the signed agreement and leaves no room for argument.
"Once the PML has been exhausted, AC will introduce the FPMA which will apply to all of its contracted regional carriers, including without limitation Jazz and Classic Airline, on a proportional pilot headcount basis."
As for WJ, there is no union at either WJ or Encore and the current CEO has been on record stating that the agreement could be modified without consent, so it essentially amounts to terms of employment which are subject to change. Once Encore has finished growing and is staffed properly, there is literally nothing stopping them from changing the terms.
Both have risks, on the AC side it is only a guaranteed interview, so I wouldn't make future plans based on anything being guaranteed.
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Re: Getting hired

#24 Post by indieadventurer » Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:52 pm

anonymity wrote:As for WJ, there is no union at either WJ or Encore and the current CEO has been on record stating that the agreement could be modified without consent, so it essentially amounts to terms of employment which are subject to change. Once Encore has finished growing and is staffed properly, there is literally nothing stopping them from changing the terms.
The agreements in place at WJ and Encore are protected under contract law and neither WestJet nor WestJet Encore can "modify without consent" their respective agreements. Changes are permitted only through following the conditions agreed upon and laid out in the agreements through the use of MOAs, LOUs and involve votes by the pilot group to do so. If they stopped following the agreement the WJPA would take them to court for going against the contract.
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loopa
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Re: Getting hired

#25 Post by loopa » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:47 pm

anonymity wrote: "Once the PML has been exhausted, AC will introduce the FPMA which will apply to all of its contracted regional carriers, including without limitation Jazz and Classic Airline, on a proportional pilot headcount basis."
So when it says that AC will introduce FPMA, is that legally binding? Are there legal consequences if they don't?

Thanks anonymity.
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