DC-8

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Old fella
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DC-8

#1 Post by Old fella » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:40 pm

Looking through some articles other day a came across an item on an Air Canada DC-8 that crashed on a training flight 1967 from Montreal I believe. Did a Google search but very scant info on it, any older goats my age have any knowledge.
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Re: DC-8

#2 Post by Antique Pilot » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:34 pm

Accident happened on May 19, 1967 at Ottawa. Flight was on a training flight and 3 pilots were onboard. I don't recall the exact circumstances but there may have been an issue with the selection of hydraulic power to the rudder during engine out operation. 2 of the pilots were from Winnipeg: Orr and Henning.. Capt. Henning was the father of future well known magician Doug Henning.

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Re: DC-8

#3 Post by land3 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:23 pm

I believe it involved a two engine out (on same side) go-around exercise when the speed got behind two engine VMC. Don't know about the hydraulics part of it. Sounds plausible.

Interestingly, it was the same DC8-54 that four years earlier had been badly damaged when during takeoff at LHR 28R ... went plowing 800 feet off the runway after reject above V1 on a miserable weather day.

Just a bad luck airplane. I remember the two 54's I got to fly in the 70's....the only two airplanes in the fleet that had names on the glareshields: Waltzing Matilda and Disco Duck! lol
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Re: DC-8

#4 Post by pigboat » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:24 am

Above 164 KTs the rudder was restricted to about 10% of travel to not over stress the rear fuselage. There was strong speculation as the aircraft slowed that the restricting valve did not open as it should have. Even though the pilots put in full rudder pedal deflection the rudder itself only gave them 10% of travel. Hard to prove one way or the other as the aircraft was destroyed. Practice two engine out approaches in the real aircraft was a questionable practice. Different times!

Been a while since old Disco and Matilda have been gone. Miss the old steam drive 8. The 73 series was a fabulous machine. DHL got another twenty years out of our old girls!
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Re: DC-8

#5 Post by 1970's aviator » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:01 am

land3 wrote:I believe it involved a two engine out (on same side) go-around exercise when the speed got behind two engine VMC. Don't know about the hydraulics part of it. Sounds plausible.

Interestingly, it was the same DC8-54 that four years earlier had been badly damaged when during takeoff at LHR 28R ... went plowing 800 feet off the runway after reject above V1 on a miserable weather day.

Just a bad luck airplane. I remember the two 54's I got to fly in the 70's....the only two airplanes in the fleet that had names on the glareshields: Waltzing Matilda and Disco Duck! lol
and they both had a lenght of string affixied to the outside center windshield to visualy confirm, independently of the ball in the flight director, that they were correctly trimed in flight.

The third pilot's name was Capt Robinson, an instructor

Also, strong rumor that the standby rudder hydraulic lever located behind the f/o's seat, used only in engine out procedures, was reversed wired.
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Re: DC-8

#6 Post by 1970's aviator » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:33 am

pigboat wrote:Above 164 KTs the rudder was restricted to about 10% of travel to not over stress the rear fuselage. There was strong speculation as the aircraft slowed that the restricting valve did not open as it should have. Even though the pilots put in full rudder pedal deflection the rudder itself only gave them 10% of travel. Hard to prove one way or the other as the aircraft was destroyed. Practice two engine out approaches in the real aircraft was a questionable practice. Different times!

Been a while since old Disco and Matilda have been gone. Miss the old steam drive 8. The 73 series was a fabulous machine. DHL got another twenty years out of our old girls!
And AC upper management at the headshed categorically said that there was no money in freight and that they could not make a buck with freight.
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Re: DC-8

#7 Post by Old fella » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:45 am

Very interesting commentary from knowledgable common-taters on this subject. One poster mentioned 2 engine out(same side) approach procedure. I assume in those days(60's) simulators were not around to any degree where such abnormal procedures could be carried out and such training( required) was done in the actual airplane. Pardon my ignorance on this heavy aircraft type but is that type of maneuver 2 engine out same side approach and go around placing the aircraft in a tenuous situation should this procedure be mishandled.
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Re: DC-8

#8 Post by land3 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:23 am

1970's aviator wrote:
and they both had a lenght of string affixied to the outside center windshield to visualy confirm, independently of the ball in the flight director, that they were correctly trimed in flight .
.....the string on the centre post! ....(that is so funny)...I can't remember that....but then, other than trying to keep the airplane straight and the left wingtip on the centre of a victor airway, most of my concentration was directed to the last page of the performance handbook...you know the one!

I think we all agreed that getting rid of the '73's was a big mistake....(UPS and FEDEX had a vision back then....)
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Re: DC-8

#9 Post by Idle Thrust » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:48 pm

Good info posted here, brought back memories. Accident occurred at Ottawa, training flight out of UL, DC-8-54F CF-TJM, AC Fin # 813. Instructor was Robinson, students Orr & Hemming were both prop captains upgrading to the jet. Two engine out approaches were part of the syllabus and simulator was unsuitable for such training - no visual, pretty crude simulation by today's standards.
Airplane got below control speed with that much asymmetric thrust, one report stated "The DC-8 suddenly rolled to the right and struck the ground inverted while on approach.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "Failure to abandon a training maneuver under conditions which precluded the availability of adequate flight control."
My recollection of the rudder hydraulic system is a little vague but I believe the final investigation found that a valve was installed incorrectly - a transfer valve of some sort that was installed in reverse thus prohibiting the rudder throw that the crew expected. Airplane crashed south of the airport on approach, I believe they added some power and ran out of rudder.

I think two-engine out training approaches were discontinued on the DC-8 but I know they continued on the Viscount for captain training, I had the pleasure in 1973.
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Re: DC-8

#10 Post by YYZSaabGuy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:10 pm

Discovered a similar two-engine out approach accident in New Orleans in late March 1967, a month and a half prior to the Air Canada DC-8 loss, covered on the Aviation Safety Network site at http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19670330-0):

Delta Air Lines DC-8-51 N802E was scheduled as Flight 9877, to provide crew training for a captain-trainee and a flight engineer-trainee. In addition the flight engineer-instructor was being given a routine proficiency check.
At 23:14 a weather briefing was given to the instructor pilot, indicating, "... the only significant weather was a restriction in visibility which was expected to reduce to about two miles in fog and smoke near 0600...".
The flight departed the ramp at 00:40 with the captain-trainee in the left seat and the check captain in the right seat. At 00:43 the crew advised the tower they were ready for takeoff and would "...like to circle and land on one (runway 1)." The tower controller then cleared them as requested. The aircraft was observed to make what appeared to be a normal takeoff and departure. At 00:47 the crew reported on base leg for runway 1, and the controller cleared the flight to land. A subsequent discussion revealed that they would execute a simulated two-engine out approach, execute a full stop landing and then takeoff on runway 19.
The tower controller observed Flight 9877 in a shallow left turn on what appeared to be a normal final approach. The degree of bank increased to approximately 60 degrees or greater when the aircraft hit the power lines approximately 2,300 feet short and 1,100 feet west of the runway threshold. The DC-8 crashed into a residential area, destroying several homes and a motel complex.

PROBABLE CAUSE: "Improper supervision by the instructor, and the improper use of flight and power controls by both instructor and the Captain-trainee during a simulated two-engine out landing approach, which resulted in a loss of control."
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Re: DC-8

#11 Post by stef » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:07 pm

Do any of you gentlemen remember JT Finucan?
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