FPML

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BingBong
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FPML

#1 Post by BingBong » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Announced today....

FPML is posted on JazzNet Memo's

Coles notes:
- "Up to" 80% from CPA carriers, on proportional basis
- No seniority reservation
- No FIP
- Carrier jumping to jump the queue for a shorter list discouraged by policy
- 6 month travel probation waived for employees with valid travel privileges.

- 2000TT min with ATPL
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atphat
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Re: FPML

#2 Post by atphat » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:17 pm

What is FIP?
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mmm..bacon
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Re: FPML

#3 Post by mmm..bacon » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:30 pm

So that means:
~ 20% OTS (or greater, depending on the meaning of 'up to80%)
~ 64% from Jazz ( 80% of 80%..)
~ 16% from Sky and GGN

Sound about right?
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Re: FPML

#4 Post by dhc# » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:39 pm

mmm..bacon wrote:So that means:
~ 20% OTS (or greater, depending on the meaning of 'up to80%)
~ 64% from Jazz ( 80% of 80%..)
~ 16% from Sky and GGN

Sound about right?
Or worse down to 0 % from the connectors is it possible ???

The "Up to" wording should be a big red flag.
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Re: FPML

#5 Post by Maxpwr » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:51 pm

You might see the number drop as the AC express pilot numbers dwindle.
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Re: FPML

#6 Post by BingBong » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:41 am

Or to preserve the schedule at express they might close the floodgates here and there.
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Re: FPML

#7 Post by Shibby » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:14 am

May Actually keep the numbers up at the express Carriers as the Carrot is very much there and being dangled.

Those thinking of jumping ship to Transat, Sunwing, or Team Teal or any overseas gig may wait until they know if AC will scoop them up or not.

To my understanding every Express carrier determines their own in-house policy for eligibility to AC. After meeting the AC criteria of ATPL and 2000 hours of course.

So each CPA can do as they please. Easy for AC and smart, They now know where to pick the majority of their pilots throughout the mass retirement numbers/fleet renewal.

It'll be interesting to see what the ratio ends up being exactly.
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Re: FPML

#8 Post by BingBong » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:20 pm

Will only find out thru here say. No watchdog is in play
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Re: FPML

#9 Post by BTyyj » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:50 pm

With this sort of agreement in place, would one be better off targeting companies like CMA, Porter, EIC, Pasco, etc. to try get 705 captain time, rather than going to Jazz, Air Georgian, Sky Regional?
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Re: FPML

#10 Post by Rowdy » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:00 pm

BTyyj wrote:With this sort of agreement in place, would one be better off targeting companies like CMA, Porter, EIC, Pasco, etc. to try get 705 captain time, rather than going to Jazz, Air Georgian, Sky Regional?
No, more like WJ, Transat, Sunwing
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Re: FPML

#11 Post by mbav8r » Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:25 am

BTyyj wrote:With this sort of agreement in place, would one be better off targeting companies like CMA, Porter, EIC, Pasco, etc. to try get 705 captain time, rather than going to Jazz, Air Georgian, Sky Regional?
The most junior captain at Jazz is 18 months, this coming year will likely have upgrades under a year, given the amount of hiring at AC. So, you would get 705 PIC and a guaranteed interview for AC, how would any of the companies you mentioned get you to AC sooner.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the new level of poverty pay at the regionals but common sense tells me you're better off with a guaranteed interview, rather than a crapshoot.
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Re: FPML

#12 Post by skypirate88 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:22 am

mbav8r wrote:
BTyyj wrote:With this sort of agreement in place, would one be better off targeting companies like CMA, Porter, EIC, Pasco, etc. to try get 705 captain time, rather than going to Jazz, Air Georgian, Sky Regional?
The most junior captain at Jazz is 18 months, this coming year will likely have upgrades under a year, given the amount of hiring at AC. So, you would get 705 PIC and a guaranteed interview for AC, how would any of the companies you mentioned get you to AC sooner.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the new level of poverty pay at the regionals but common sense tells me you're better off with a guaranteed interview, rather than a crapshoot.
If I remember correctly, this last bid saw Classic captain go to a November 2015 DOH, and RJ captain went May 2015 DOH. There will be plenty of hiring here at Jazz to fill the 130+ vacancies the last bid showed
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Re: FPML

#13 Post by FL320 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:25 am

.
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Re: FPML

#14 Post by Rowdy » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:51 am

skypirate88 wrote: If I remember correctly, this last bid saw Classic captain go to a November 2015 DOH, and RJ captain went May 2015 DOH. There will be plenty of hiring here at Jazz to fill the 130+ vacancies the last bid showed
Not one, but three YVR Classic Capts that were hired nov 2015.

The OTS will come from 1) Military 2) WJ/AT/SW and not Pasco, CMA etc..
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Re: FPML

#15 Post by AirMail » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:30 pm

Are the Air Ontario guys still bum hurt or will they get DEC on the triple with this new agreement?
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Re: FPML

#16 Post by gtanorth » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:38 pm

The FPML makes it clear that AC wants to drive pilots to the xpress brand. The "up to" 80% allows the xpress brands to cope with attrition during future growth but outside of growth periods each xpress player will feed their respective share of the 80%. AC needs regional feed and it needs to be competitive so the path to AC is paved with xpress pilots. OTS will be military approx 6 - 11% some friends and family lets say 2 - 5% so that leaves about 4 - 12% really OTS. The message could not be more clear - want to go to AC make yourself at home in xpress for a couple of years. Want to go to WJ hit Encore. To sit and wait on the sideline in hopes of an interview is time wasted IF your goal is AC or WJ.
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Re: FPML

#17 Post by flymore » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:03 am

Can any Jazz pilots (at AC OR thinking of going to AC) out there give insight on whether it is worth it to leave Jazz? Just want some thoughts before signing up for the new PML.

I understand that movement is at a feverish pace at Air Canada, but I'm concerned that after leaving Jazz (assuming a successful recruitment process of course), I may be stuck at just that wrong AC seniority number. There's going to be hundreds of new hires before me and they will be getting their picks before my turn comes. And then, the movement slows down at some point in the future. Everyone will pretty much be stuck at where they are and just wait for the next cycle to get things moving again.

It seems a tad pessimistic but there has to be a point where it's too late to move to AC and you're better off just staying where you are with a higher seniority?

Of course, apart from that, any other factors worth looking into such as pay, pension, lifestyle, company culture etc?
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Re: FPML

#18 Post by fish4life » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:13 pm

I'm not at jazz but just keep in mind that if AC wants to shift flying again down the road the same thing can happen at jazz or worse you can get straight up laid off. If you are young go to AC if you are older jazz isn't the worst thing in the world but who knows if it will exist down the road if your young.
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Re: FPML

#19 Post by AirMail » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:03 pm

Getting life decisions made for ya from Avcanada is pro. If you have to ask, you're really not capable of making important decisions such as those in the left seat.
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Re: FPML

#20 Post by flymore » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:16 pm

AirMail wrote:Getting life decisions made for ya from Avcanada is pro. If you have to ask, you're really not capable of making important decisions such as those in the left seat.
*IGNORE* Let's not destroy this thread.

Any valuable relevant feedback on AC vs Jazz, specially from those who have experienced the difference, would be much appreciated. Thanks to those who have replied already.
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Re: FPML

#21 Post by Maver!ck » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:28 am

fish4life wrote:I'm not at jazz but just keep in mind that if AC wants to shift flying again down the road the same thing can happen at jazz or worse you can get straight up laid off. If you are young go to AC if you are older jazz isn't the worst thing in the world but who knows if it will exist down the road if your young.
Well said ! It depends how old you are .... I believe if you are in your 20s it is a no brainer ! In your 30s it depends what YOU want to do and in your 40s staying at Jazz is a pretttttttty sweeeeeet gig !
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Re: FPML

#22 Post by KAG » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:03 am

AirMail wrote:Getting life decisions made for ya from Avcanada is pro. If you have to ask, you're really not capable of making important decisions such as those in the left seat.
Whats wrong with asking for advice? Thinking like that tells me you're not ready for the left seat.

Back to the topic, I went through the Jazz system 10 years ago. Wow have times changed. You needed 10 years in YYZ just to be a reserve b!tch skipper. Going there will advance your career, as for getting onto AC, impossible to answer. Its all a gamble/best guess until your career has played out behind you and you can look back and judge for yourself.
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Re: FPML

#23 Post by Fanblade » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:33 am

My opinion only.

I would be very leary of making a career at any regional. Those jobs go out for tender every 5-10 years. What you see today could be very different a few years down the road. Possibly not at all. The pressure to compete against the newest, cheapest, lowest common denominator, will never end. If your company can't compete they lose the flying.

Look south of the boarder to see what to expect. The future may be better for regional wages than the last two decades as a pilot shortage looms. However the greatest beneficiary appears to be those at the major airlines as regional flying is repatriated back to mainline.

Someone will want to point out that Encore is wholly owned. Jazz and its predecessor airlines were also wholly owned for a few decades. Once costs started to climb AC looked for an alternative model. If Encores costs climb the same will happen. WJ will use the threat of contracting out and/or selling Encore to keep Encores costs competitive with AC express. IOW even if Encore stays wholly owed it will do so only by being hand cuffed to AC express WAWCON.
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Re: FPML

#24 Post by Fanblade » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:46 am

flymore wrote:
I understand that movement is at a feverish pace at Air Canada, but I'm concerned that after leaving Jazz (assuming a successful recruitment process of course), I may be stuck at just that wrong AC seniority number. There's going to be hundreds of new hires before me and they will be getting their picks before my turn comes. And then, the movement slows down at some point in the future. Everyone will pretty much be stuck at where they are and just wait for the next cycle to get things moving again.

It seems a tad pessimistic but there has to be a point where it's too late to move to AC and you're better off just staying where you are with a higher seniority?
I'd be lying if I said being trapped at the bottom won't happen. It happens to someone at the end of every hiring cycle. But it passes. Think of it as effectively being the first hired in the next cycle.

Risk reward. There is risk in leaving. There is risk in staying. Where is your greatest reward?
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Re: FPML

#25 Post by dhc# » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:42 pm

Fanblade wrote:My opinion only.

I would be very leary of making a career at any regional. Those jobs go out for tender every 5-10 years. What you see today could be very different a few years down the road. Possibly not at all. The pressure to compete against the newest, cheapest, lowest common denominator, will never end. If your company can't compete they lose the flying.

Look south of the boarder to see what to expect. The future may be better for regional wages than the last two decades as a pilot shortage looms. However the greatest beneficiary appears to be those at the major airlines as regional flying is repatriated back to mainline.

Someone will want to point out that Encore is wholly owned. Jazz and its predecessor airlines were also wholly owned for a few decades. Once costs started to climb AC looked for an alternative model. If Encores costs climb the same will happen. WJ will use the threat of contracting out and/or selling Encore to keep Encores costs competitive with AC express. IOW even if Encore stays wholly owed it will do so only by being hand cuffed to AC express WAWCON.
You nailed it !

Most pilots have such short memories, when things are rollin' and it seems the hiring won't stop....all it takes is some international incident, economy tanks, the music stops, everyone ends up stuck where they are, for better or worse. Who knows if Jazz will be around in its current form in 10 yrs, probably not, same goes for Sky Regional, Georgian, Encore...etc. Just look at the history.

You pointed it out very clearly, look at what is happening to regionals in the states, and you see what will happen in Canada given the current trends. Better to work for the airline that pays the bills and not the contractor, regionals' are no longer set up as career destinations, only a stepping stone or dead end...
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