Upgrade times and pay.
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- infiniteregulus
- Rank 4
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.
Aren't there a bazillion open 320FO spots right now though?
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- Rank 6
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- Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 5:24 pm
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
With the scheduled growth and a lot of the Airbuses sticking around i don't think you will see any 320'FO reductions in YVR or YYZ. I think enough people will bid the left seat from that position to avoid them.
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- Rank 5
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Re: Upgrade times and pay.
I'm thinking that even 3 a month could be somewhat of a drag? Up at 0700 local home time, off to the airport, leave at noon for a ?15?hour flight, check into hotel at 0400 body time, and try to sleep. Wake up 4 hours later, at 0-dark thirty local time, and try to keep yourself occupied. Nap for a while at lunchtime body time, and then check in for the return flight leaving at 1500ish local time, or 2200 body time. Pull a 15 hour return, keeping yourself awake all night, and then most of the next day when you get home.RVR6000 wrote: 3 Asia’s a month you’re done in 9-10 days. Becomes more of a part-time job.
3 days - easy stuff, until you think that you've just done pretty much two all-nighters, and will need the better part of the next four days to get your body back to normal before you go and do it all over again...
or am I out to lunch on this?
Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two!
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
Nope, long haul flights are hard on you're sleep, looks good on paper.....mmm..bacon wrote:I'm thinking that even 3 a month could be somewhat of a drag? Up at 0700 local home time, off to the airport, leave at noon for a ?15?hour flight, check into hotel at 0400 body time, and try to sleep. Wake up 4 hours later, at 0-dark thirty local time, and try to keep yourself occupied. Nap for a while at lunchtime body time, and then check in for the return flight leaving at 1500ish local time, or 2200 body time. Pull a 15 hour return, keeping yourself awake all night, and then most of the next day when you get home.RVR6000 wrote: 3 Asia’s a month you’re done in 9-10 days. Becomes more of a part-time job.
3 days - easy stuff, until you think that you've just done pretty much two all-nighters, and will need the better part of the next four days to get your body back to normal before you go and do it all over again...
or am I out to lunch on this?
- Anticyclone
- Rank 3
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:50 am
- Location: Nothern Hemisphere
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
Any min PIC time required for upgrades or just seniority based??
Take good care.
Take good care.
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
Out to lunch? Nope. You're right on.mmm..bacon wrote:I'm thinking that even 3 a month could be somewhat of a drag? Up at 0700 local home time, off to the airport, leave at noon for a ?15?hour flight, check into hotel at 0400 body time, and try to sleep. Wake up 4 hours later, at 0-dark thirty local time, and try to keep yourself occupied. Nap for a while at lunchtime body time, and then check in for the return flight leaving at 1500ish local time, or 2200 body time. Pull a 15 hour return, keeping yourself awake all night, and then most of the next day when you get home.RVR6000 wrote: 3 Asia’s a month you’re done in 9-10 days. Becomes more of a part-time job.
3 days - easy stuff, until you think that you've just done pretty much two all-nighters, and will need the better part of the next four days to get your body back to normal before you go and do it all over again...
or am I out to lunch on this?
Having said that, when I was young it was not a problem. As I got older and closer to retirement I found the long-haul flying a lot more difficult to handle. I'm retired now and loving it, but I still have a few friends that are over 60 boasting that they are only flying 9 days a month. I don't think their days off are quality time. Too much of it is spent on recovery.
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
Like all initial upgrades at AC, you must go through an evaluation process before being released as captain.Anticyclone wrote:Any min PIC time required for upgrades or just seniority based??
Take good care.
Having some actual PIC 705 experience will obviously help you practically speaking...
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
You're not out to lunch, it helps if you can fall a sleep in the crew bunks. I believe you get 2 - 3 hour rest on a 14-15 hour flight.mmm..bacon wrote:I'm thinking that even 3 a month could be somewhat of a drag? Up at 0700 local home time, off to the airport, leave at noon for a ?15?hour flight, check into hotel at 0400 body time, and try to sleep. Wake up 4 hours later, at 0-dark thirty local time, and try to keep yourself occupied. Nap for a while at lunchtime body time, and then check in for the return flight leaving at 1500ish local time, or 2200 body time. Pull a 15 hour return, keeping yourself awake all night, and then most of the next day when you get home.RVR6000 wrote: 3 Asia’s a month you’re done in 9-10 days. Becomes more of a part-time job.
3 days - easy stuff, until you think that you've just done pretty much two all-nighters, and will need the better part of the next four days to get your body back to normal before you go and do it all over again...
or am I out to lunch on this?
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
If you add up waking up, driving to work, flight duty time, customs on arrival, transport to layover hotel (and all of that in reverse for the flight back) the 15 hour duty period will be closer to 20-22 hours of wake time before an opportunity to get R.E.M. sleep. Makes a non-augment 8 hour night flight to Europe look like a walk in the park.
6 times per month? Over 70 times per year? That will take its toll. Especially when the grey hair arrives.
The best part of AC is that pilots can pick their plane and therefore pick the style of flying that works for them individually. But you sure see a lot of puffy eyes leaving the terminals.....
6 times per month? Over 70 times per year? That will take its toll. Especially when the grey hair arrives.
The best part of AC is that pilots can pick their plane and therefore pick the style of flying that works for them individually. But you sure see a lot of puffy eyes leaving the terminals.....
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
I did the RP position for a while.
There can be some challenges on the long range stuff, but once (if) you get into a routine it's way better than all night Atlantic crossings with 2 guys or even transcon redeyes... and the 16-20 day schedules some guys here are working.
In fact I found a schedule of double augmented 3-day Asia pairings to be the best I ever felt of any of the positions I've done at AC. With 6-7 hours in the bunk you get a pretty good sleep in even on flights you are working the back side of the clock. Some guys have difficulty, but for the most part I could sleep reasonably well. Lots of time off for recovery and staying ahead of the stresses that build up when you're away...
There can be some challenges on the long range stuff, but once (if) you get into a routine it's way better than all night Atlantic crossings with 2 guys or even transcon redeyes... and the 16-20 day schedules some guys here are working.
In fact I found a schedule of double augmented 3-day Asia pairings to be the best I ever felt of any of the positions I've done at AC. With 6-7 hours in the bunk you get a pretty good sleep in even on flights you are working the back side of the clock. Some guys have difficulty, but for the most part I could sleep reasonably well. Lots of time off for recovery and staying ahead of the stresses that build up when you're away...
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
You basically read my mind on the post I had in draft by answering the question already , but I'll ask anyway:altiplano wrote:I did the RP position for a while.
There can be some challenges on the long range stuff, but once (if) you get into a routine it's way better than all night Atlantic crossings with 2 guys or even transcon redeyes... and the 16-20 day schedules some guys here are working.
In fact I found a schedule of double augmented 3-day Asia pairings to be the best I ever felt of any of the positions I've done at AC. With 6-7 hours in the bunk you get a pretty good sleep in even on flights you are working the back side of the clock. Some guys have difficulty, but for the most part I could sleep reasonably well. Lots of time off for recovery and staying ahead of the stresses that build up when you're away...
Question for the folks who have done various types of long-haul/back of the clock flying. Did you find it harder doing:
a-a few 5 hour YVR-YYZ narrow body Red-eyes with 14-16 total days a month flying?
b-the 6-9 hour Trans Atlantic red-eyes with slightly less flying a month?
c-or, the extra long haul Asia/ME with an RP for 9-10 days a month?
I don't particularly have a preference - was just curious. While the extra long haul stuff would seem to mess with your body clock the most, there seems to be more of an opportunity to rest while in the A/C and more time to recover in between flights.
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
d) the a/b mixed schedule - 20 days of transcon redeyes and 2 pilot western Europe trips. month after month after month...
That's the worst schedule and most fatigued I've ever felt my entire career.
That's the worst schedule and most fatigued I've ever felt my entire career.
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- Rank 8
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- Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:19 pm
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
So I've heard new hires are being told that if they don't have any jet time in the last 2 years they can't bid for the 737. (Because AC doesn't want to do circuits with them?)
Anyone know more about this??
Anyone know more about this??
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
The new AC Max SIM has only been certified by Transport Canada as Level C at the moment. For some reason this requires previous jet time - not sure all the specifics and timelines regarding SIM certification; apparently its expected to be certified to Level D in the future.'97 Tercel wrote:So I've heard new hires are being told that if they don't have any jet time in the last 2 years they can't bid for the 737. (Because AC doesn't want to do circuits with them?)
Anyone know more about this??
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
When I log into the Air Canada careers website and look at my jobs it shows the pilot one as 'Accepting Submissions'. Nothing for pilots on the main page though. Anyone have an insight?
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- Rank 1
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- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:43 am
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
Spent 7 years on the 777 doing Asia. Primarily HKG and PVG. Not really an issue for me sleep wise. At TOC I would be in the bunk for a three hour nap, fly for three hours and then back into the bunk for another 3 hour nap before coming back to the flight deck. The first few months took a little getting used to but generally, I loved it. Flights to Asia leave in the day time vs Europe leaving later at night. Six hours of sleep coming back home and 9 days per month. It was the best part time job in Canada in my opinion. Four guys makes for multiple resources in the flight deck during ground operations. Too much of anything however becomes a bit boring. One nice thing at AC is that you have a variety of positions to choose from throughout your career and one person's heaven can be another's hell. So not everyone is vying for the same spot.
On the narrow body side, you are often doing multiple legs through the same frontal systems, much more time on the ground spent de icing, dealing with incompetent station turnarounds and generally much less productive. Also a good assortment of red eyes. No extra crew members to provide assistance when the workload gets high. If you are junior, plan on 16 days a month at work. However, if you like flying and dealing with challenges vs sitting around doing hourly fuel checks, then it is a good gig.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages. If you commute however, a long haul position is a no brainer.
As far as upgrades or available positions, pretty much anything is available at the bottom of all equipment. This is because life at the bottom is very very different from life at the top. The only thing in Canada that is not taxable these days is your time off and more and more people are realizing this, so wont bid a position until they can be assured of having a life. However, some will chase airplanes or money, no matter what. As an example, take the 737 Max. Number one Captain has a 400 series seniority number vs the bottom guy, almost 3000 numbers junior.
This is one thing I love about AC at the moment. Lots of variety and choices. The biggest stress is " what should I bid? " Nice problem to have in my opinion.
On the narrow body side, you are often doing multiple legs through the same frontal systems, much more time on the ground spent de icing, dealing with incompetent station turnarounds and generally much less productive. Also a good assortment of red eyes. No extra crew members to provide assistance when the workload gets high. If you are junior, plan on 16 days a month at work. However, if you like flying and dealing with challenges vs sitting around doing hourly fuel checks, then it is a good gig.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages. If you commute however, a long haul position is a no brainer.
As far as upgrades or available positions, pretty much anything is available at the bottom of all equipment. This is because life at the bottom is very very different from life at the top. The only thing in Canada that is not taxable these days is your time off and more and more people are realizing this, so wont bid a position until they can be assured of having a life. However, some will chase airplanes or money, no matter what. As an example, take the 737 Max. Number one Captain has a 400 series seniority number vs the bottom guy, almost 3000 numbers junior.
This is one thing I love about AC at the moment. Lots of variety and choices. The biggest stress is " what should I bid? " Nice problem to have in my opinion.
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
I have been trying to get a picture of up to date pay figures for AC. I found the CBA on the Ontario ministry of labour website, and I think I figured out how the pay works.
Can anybody who actually knows confirm that I have done this right? For simplicity, I assumed no nav pay for the EMJ and A320, and 100% overseas pay for the widebodies. Everything is based on 1/2 day, 1/2 night. I got the Rouge numbers from LOU 74, but the flat pay numbers don't match... it seems they used the same numbers as in the mainline contract, not factoring in the 2011 and 2012 increases, so those numbers are about 7% less than the mainline numbers. I also see that the Rouge B767 Captain pay is less than the Roge A319 Captain pay for the first 4 steps... is this a typo?
I assumed 2% increases per year for 2016 and 2017, as the CBA only had figures up to 2015.
I also recall hearing that the RP pay is a status pay now, so are my RP numbers wrong?
Thanks!
Can anybody who actually knows confirm that I have done this right? For simplicity, I assumed no nav pay for the EMJ and A320, and 100% overseas pay for the widebodies. Everything is based on 1/2 day, 1/2 night. I got the Rouge numbers from LOU 74, but the flat pay numbers don't match... it seems they used the same numbers as in the mainline contract, not factoring in the 2011 and 2012 increases, so those numbers are about 7% less than the mainline numbers. I also see that the Rouge B767 Captain pay is less than the Roge A319 Captain pay for the first 4 steps... is this a typo?
I assumed 2% increases per year for 2016 and 2017, as the CBA only had figures up to 2015.
I also recall hearing that the RP pay is a status pay now, so are my RP numbers wrong?
Thanks!
Code: Select all
Captain
EMJ A320 B767 A330 B787 B777 A319LCC B767LCC
1st year $154.20 $190.50 $233.95 $249.12 $253.56 $277.25 $144.92 $132.08
2nd year $156.09 $192.39 $235.84 $251.01 $255.45 $279.13 $149.87 $140.14
3rd year $157.98 $194.27 $237.72 $252.90 $257.34 $281.02 $154.75 $148.30
4th year $159.89 $196.18 $239.63 $254.81 $259.25 $282.93 $159.49 $156.53
5th year $161.70 $198.00 $241.45 $256.62 $261.06 $284.75 $164.36 $164.67
6th year $163.66 $199.96 $243.41 $258.58 $263.02 $286.70 $169.40 $172.79
7th year $165.50 $201.80 $245.25 $260.42 $264.86 $288.54 $176.22 $181.00
8th year $167.48 $203.78 $247.23 $262.40 $266.84 $290.52 $182.98 $189.07
9th year $169.37 $205.66 $249.11 $264.29 $268.73 $292.41 $189.89 $197.24
10th year $171.27 $207.56 $251.01 $266.19 $270.63 $294.31 $196.61 $203.25
11th year $173.14 $209.44 $252.89 $268.06 $272.50 $296.18 $197.78 $203.25
12th year $175.03 $211.32 $254.77 $269.95 $274.39 $298.07 $199.03 $203.25
First Officer
EMJ A320 B767 A330 B787 B777 A319LCC B767LCC
1st year $56.05 $56.05 $56.05 $56.05 $56.05 $56.05 $52.33 $52.33
2nd year $61.88 $61.88 $61.88 $61.88 $61.88 $61.88 $57.77 $57.77
3rd year $71.21 $71.21 $71.21 $71.21 $71.21 $71.21 $66.49 $66.49
4th year $80.54 $80.54 $80.54 $80.54 $80.54 $80.54 $75.20 $75.20
5th year $91.87 $109.29 $130.92 $138.20 $140.33 $151.70 $100.90 $105.47
6th year $95.84 $113.81 $135.91 $143.42 $145.62 $157.34 $105.53 $112.27
7th year $99.69 $118.20 $140.78 $148.52 $150.78 $162.86 $109.26 $117.62
8th year $103.69 $122.75 $145.80 $153.76 $156.09 $168.53 $110.43 $124.81
9th year $107.59 $127.19 $150.72 $158.91 $161.31 $174.10 $110.43 $130.22
10th year $111.50 $131.65 $155.65 $164.07 $166.54 $179.68 $110.43 $130.22
11th year $115.39 $136.08 $160.56 $169.21 $171.74 $185.24 $110.43 $130.22
12th year $119.29 $140.53 $165.48 $174.35 $176.95 $190.81 $110.43 $130.22
Relief Pilot
B767 A330 B787 B777
1st year $56.05 $56.05 $56.05 $56.05
2nd year $61.88 $61.88 $61.88 $61.88
3rd year $71.21 $71.21 $71.21 $71.21
4th year $80.54 $80.54 $80.54 $80.54
5th year $88.32 $92.57 $93.81 $100.44
6th year $92.30 $96.70 $97.99 $104.86
7th year $96.16 $100.72 $102.05 $109.15
8th year $100.17 $104.87 $106.25 $113.59
9th year $104.08 $108.93 $110.35 $117.93
10th year $108.00 $113.01 $114.47 $122.29
11th year $109.87 $114.88 $116.35 $124.16
12th year $111.76 $116.77 $118.23 $126.05
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
Would long haul be a terrible idea for someone that's never been a napper?Level Change wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:18 am I would be in the bunk for a three hour nap, fly for three hours and then back into the bunk for another 3 hour nap before coming back to the flight deck.
Re: Upgrade times and pay.
Currently there is no certified Level D 737Max sim in the world, according to a manager I was speaking with. AC expects its certification in Fall 2018. Once the sim is level D certified they’ll remove the restriction.'97 Tercel wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:40 pm So I've heard new hires are being told that if they don't have any jet time in the last 2 years they can't bid for the 737. (Because AC doesn't want to do circuits with them?)
Anyone know more about this??
They had imposed a jet time restriction on bidding the 767 new hire positio as well few years ago, not sure if it still applies.