Westjet. The new PML to Air Canada!

['97 Tercel]

I counted 5 Jazz pilots showing on the Oct 2 AC ground school. Not an official number but likely close.

Do you know which PML 'version' those 5 are from?

Cheers

[Inverted2]

I counted 5 Jazz pilots showing on the Oct 2 AC ground school. Not an official number but likely close.

Do you know which PML 'version' those 5 are from?

Cheers

At least 1 is from the old PML. Deferred the full 2 years.

[co-joe]

I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.

Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.

[JBI]

I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.

Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.

As far as I know, all applied during last year's OTS opening.

[GATRKGA]

The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...

I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?

[aV1aTOr]

The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...

I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?

Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.

[RVR6000]

The "unrestricted bid" doesn't "reset"... you get another at 15 years and another at 25 years...

There are ways to move positions without course rights too FWIW...

I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?

Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.

Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.

[altiplano]

I see alti - thanks for clarifying that. So then if you haven't used your unrestricted, would that mean that at the 25 year mark, you would have 3 unrestricted bids?

Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.

Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.

Correct you would accumulate them.

The corporation will do what it ultimately has to do though to staff the positions and get what they want - like votes on a concessionary deal - a good example being the extra course rights they just doled out to guys that already blew theirs... while most of us planned ahead...

The playing field is constantly changing.

[aV1aTOr]

Yes. Bearing in mind ALOT can and will change in 25 years. Course rights could be long gone by then, or even more restrictive than today.

Or course rights (CR) could be negotiated during TA’s. Those that were freely using their CR and had no unrestricted or narrow body captain CR were awarded a CR in this TA to bid Rouge position.

Correct you would accumulate them.

The corporation will do what it ultimately has to do though to staff the positions and get what they want - like votes on a concessionary deal - a good example being the extra course rights they just doled out to guys that already blew theirs... while most of us planned ahead...

The playing field is constantly changing.

I can't believe the NC agreed to this part. We rewarded impatience and punished prudence. If they're handing out CRs, everyone should have gotten a free bid to any rouge seat or a free bid out of a rouge seat.

[co-joe]

I count 9 or 10 x-Westjet on this recent class of 30... both mainline/encore.
Welcome.

Were they in the pipeline from last year's OTS opening/ interviews or is there some new back door WS only application form? Serious question, just wondering.

As far as I know, all applied during last year's OTS opening.

Thanks JBI. That tends more towards mainline giving the express carriers a breather to catch up, rather than a WJ to AC pipeline.

[TheStig]

The application window is expected to open 'soon'.

Just out of curiosity can someone who has seen the language of PML 2.0 explain what it states? The first PML was very specific with respect to what AC's obligations were to the Jazz pilots on the list. It appears as though the 80% ratio of Express/OTS no longer applies.

[skypirate88]

The application window is expected to open 'soon'.

Just out of curiosity can someone who has seen the language of PML 2.0 explain what it states? The first PML was very specific with respect to what AC's obligations were to the Jazz pilots on the list. It appears as though the 80% ratio of Express/OTS no longer applies.

The language states AC will fill new hire classes with up to 80% from the Express carriers. I think what we are seeing right now is that AC is allowing the Express carriers a chance to breath and get caught up a little with their own staff levels. It will be a very fine line between balancing the needs of AC and having enough staff at Express for them to meet their CPA obligations.

[TheStig]

The language states AC will fill new hire classes with up to 80% from the Express carriers. I think what we are seeing right now is that AC is allowing the Express carriers a chance to breath and get caught up a little with their own staff levels. It will be a very fine line between balancing the needs of AC and having enough staff at Express for them to meet their CPA obligations.

I agree the first PML must have put a huge strain on Jazz to replace the pilots who left. I hate to be the skeptic here, but would you agree that there is really no such thing as PML 2.0? To the extent that being at an Express carrier offers no inside track to AC. Even including the pilots who have deferred AC is now hiring primarily from outside the Express pilot group again and has only committed to offering Express pilots the chance of an interview.

Given the size of the pilot pool at Jazz/GGN/SR looking to come to AC compared to Sunwing, Transat and WJ/WJe, it would seem that if anything the Express pilots are less likely to successfully join AC, much like in the 2005-2008 hiring period. The rules of the game seem to have changed again in between periods.

[infiniteregulus]

Guaranteed interview, not guaranteed job or flow. Nobody at express is owed anything by AC other than that. Yes it would make sense for AC to take them as they're already in the system and flying their passengers, but by the wording of the agreement, an "interview" is all that is given and expected. If you get hired, great! If not, it's not Air Canada's fault or obligation. They're interested in fulfilling their own business agenda, not an express pilot's. The driving discontent is the fact that PML does NOT equal flow, and at its core, that is the fundamental principle and should not be confused. No preferential treatment, no bypassing anyone...you get an interview. After that, you're in the standing like everyone else. The entitlement these days is audacious!

[yyctwin]

Guaranteed interview, not guaranteed job or flow. Nobody at express is owed anything by AC other than that. Yes it would make sense for AC to take them as they're already in the system and flying their passengers, but by the wording of the agreement, an "interview" is all that is given and expected. If you get hired, great! If not, it's not Air Canada's fault or obligation. They're interested in fulfilling their own business agenda, not an express pilot's. The driving discontent is the fact that PML does NOT equal flow, and at its core, that is the fundamental principle and should not be confused. No preferential treatment, no bypassing anyone...you get an interview. After that, you're in the standing like everyone else. The entitlement these days is

[altiplano]

No. They rouge the express flights...

That's the latest and greatest...

[infiniteregulus]

I agree it's in EVERYBODY's best interest for AC to take the majority of their new hires from Express. However, it stands to reason that scalping Express to the point they can't staff their flights anymore is non-sustainable and unprofitable. I don't think AC has implemented the process in a smart manner as there's obvious flaws in it all. However, I believe we should all call a spade a spade here and the PML is NOT FLOW. I don't know why guys are getting angry at that. Really they should be calling it the GIL (Guaranteed Interview List). Now if management is indeed promoting the PML in terms of it being flow, that's them being wrongful and manipulative. I can't speak on their behalf but I find that very deceitful. In the end, life in business isn't about what one deserves, but what makes the most money. You could be the best employee on the planet, but if picking you hurts the process of making money, you will get thrown under the bus every time. Sorry, but life isn't fair with rainbows and lollypops. Entitlement is a very unhealthy view and should never be justified. Entitlement happens to be the next big issue in the upcoming generation. All I can say is hopefully AC realizes the mistake they've made in their implementation of this PML, and correct it with a better established arrangement.

[Victory]

Yeah like just doing all the regional flying themselves again.

[RVR6000]

Guaranteed interview, not guaranteed job or flow. Nobody at express is owed anything by AC other than that. Yes it would make sense for AC to take them as they're already in the system and flying their passengers, but by the wording of the agreement, an "interview" is all that is given and expected. If you get hired, great! If not, it's not Air Canada's fault or obligation. They're interested in fulfilling their own business agenda, not an express pilot's. The driving discontent is the fact that PML does NOT equal flow, and at its core, that is the fundamental principle and should not be confused. No preferential treatment, no bypassing anyone...you get an interview. After that, you're in the standing like everyone else. The entitlement these days is audacious!

At the end of their day they have earned the right to feel entitlement to a brighter future and if the future generations who have a goal of flying for one of the 2 Canadian Majors realize Encore if the better route cause their guaranteed 1 if the other doesn't work out. Guess what happens when the applicants dry up at the regionals Air Canada flights get cancelled, Air Canada passengers get screwed, Air Canada tickets stop being purchased and Air Canada astronauts sitting in their space shuttles become affected.

I think Air Canada reserves the rights to pick and choose individuals who they see fit for their organization. They have let go of a few new PML individuals and reinstated the psych and personality test specifially for this reason, people with entitlement issues and bad attitudes. Just because you flew their passengers doesn’t make you automatically qualified. With that logic EVAS, Georgian, Sky Regional heck even Wasaya Pilots (under the Jazz agreement) should all just walk in, screw the interview even.

[Ex DC10 Driver]

Does anyone know the numbers for today's class? From WestJet/Encore or Jazz etc?