New TA?

[navajo_jay]

Why are you guys fighting so much over pension when the real issue to me is depreciation of working conditions and schedule. We should work less and make the same money. We should improve working conditions for the now while we are young and healthy. The way it goes you guys won't need the pension because you won't probably be alive, since the life expectancy of an airline pilot pilot shorter than the general population.

[Inverted2]

The new TC duty time limits if the ever come into effect will mean everyone except the long haul guys will be working more days due to shorter duty days.

[altiplano]

Why are you guys fighting so much over pension when the real issue to me is depreciation of working conditions and schedule. We should work less and make the same money.

As I said...

I'd rather have money in my pocket today and not make any career concessions.

[Chris]

Come join the management side.....

~ 6% & 6% DC Pension

~ 50+ hr work week (and weekends)

~ Constant travel (back of the bus middle seat 85% of the time)

~ Avg 2% annual salary increase

[Alcoholism]

You know what is sad? That ACPA and the AC pilots have such leverage, and they don't even know it! I thought HR recruited the best and brightest degree bearing turds. And here you SOBs give away more for less. WTF is going on there? Kool aid much? Not only do you have sway at your own company, but what happens in aviation in Canada. But you all are so dim to realize that. Fudge, if I could only swat you all over the head.... AC pilots loosing respect more and more each day... RIP

[DH772]

When you say "In fact if you look at the pension estimator if you take the additional payments made through the MEPP plan vs. DC and you factor that additional payment into the DC plan (say into a separate investment vehicle) the difference between the 2 plans is near 0."

You are making assumptions based on market returns and who knows how you came up with those numbers. DC members have to take on the risk. This was about the management of risk. This plan is pretty good, particularly when you compare it to other corporations.

"Let me ask you, how do MEPP members ask for increased pension in the future?"

The answer is pretty simple, you increase salary. Then that increases contributions.

In reference to DC pension - "not to mention that money is your forever."

So is the MEPP. The company can't touch it through concessions. And the DC contributions are still in a locked in RRSP with all the CRA restrictions.

I'm making assumptions?? First off, the whole premise of determining a DC pension involves assumptions? Not to mention the pension estimator uses just that....assumptions. (ex. 91 hours per month in some positions? Seriously?).
Secondly, I made zero assumptions. I am using the information the ACPA provided use via the pension estimator as to how much extra money is contributed over the DC plan.
I am not even accounting for the compounding interest, but rather just the extra contribution amounts since there will also be tax implications. So my "assumptions" are based on what ACPA is providing us.

Salary increases? Are you joking???
Take a look at the estimator. Even if you bid lower paying positions vs significantly higher paying positions the difference in your pension is hardly significant (Im assuming the pension estimator already took a 2% salary increase into account. Id take a look but ACPA already took the link for the estimator off their website). Taking into account our track record for salary gains over the last 20 years that certainly is a piss poor way of saying we'll get pension increases in the future via salary increases.

My reference to the money is yours forever means, when I die my spouse doesn't get reduced to 60%. When I die, she keeps 100% of the remainder, and after that it is paid forward to my children.

Whether you like the plan or not, it certainly is a step in the right direction for closing the pension gap. However, we are FAR off from equal pensions still.

[Dockjock]

My bargaining position on pensions esp DB is I believe somebody- either the company or a bitter, ignorant faction of DCer's- is going to try to take it away. So I am only interested in improvements that result in money now, not later. The pensions are not equal no, but we just spent our entire wad on improving the DC plan to something at least twice as good as it was. Not to put too fine a point on it but...other than the 100 or so pilots in the pool when the pension changed, everyone else after that had the "deal breaker" choice to turn down the job if the offer wasn't to your liking. That's a fact. FWIW I'm not sure I feel any more secure with DB than I would with MEPP (or whatever it's called). Like I said, I feel that for better or worse the DB plan has a bullseye on it and will forevermore.

[groundpilot]

My bargaining position on pensions esp DB is I believe somebody- either the company or a bitter, ignorant faction of DCer's- is going to try to take it away. So I am only interested in improvements that result in money now, not later. The pensions are not equal no, but we just spent our entire wad on improving the DC plan to something at least twice as good as it was. Not to put too fine a point on it but...other than the 100 or so pilots in the pool when the pension changed, everyone else after that had the "deal breaker" choice to turn down the job if the offer wasn't to your liking. That's a fact. FWIW I'm not sure I feel any more secure with DB than I would with MEPP (or whatever it's called). Like I said, I feel that for better or worse the DB plan has a bullseye on it and will forevermore.

Love this post

This folks will always be the challenges a pilot union faces. It's not hard to divide and conquer when you got guys like this unable to look past their own nose.

ME ME ME

The other issue here is the lack of knowledge. Obviously you have formed your opinion without reading the material.

For one thing, a MEPP cannot be touched with concessions, unlike your DB & SERP

I hope you enjoyed the progression the age 60 rule gave and how it suddenly changed. But I'm sure things that changed to your benefit weren't an issue.

[altiplano]

My bargaining position on pensions esp DB is I believe somebody- either the company or a bitter, ignorant faction of DCer's- is going to try to take it away. So I am only interested in improvements that result in money now, not later. The pensions are not equal no, but we just spent our entire wad on improving the DC plan to something at least twice as good as it was. Not to put too fine a point on it but...other than the 100 or so pilots in the pool when the pension changed, everyone else after that had the "deal breaker" choice to turn down the job if the offer wasn't to your liking. That's a fact. FWIW I'm not sure I feel any more secure with DB than I would with MEPP (or whatever it's called). Like I said, I feel that for better or worse the DB plan has a bullseye on it and will forevermore.

Love this post

This folks will always be the challenges a pilot union faces. It's not hard to divide and conquer when you got guys like this unable to look past their own nose.

ME ME ME

The other issue here is the lack of knowledge. Obviously you have formed your opinion without reading the material.

For one thing, a MEPP cannot be touched with concessions, unlike your DB & SERP

I hope you enjoyed the progression the age 60 rule gave and how it suddenly changed. But I'm sure things that changed to your benefit weren't an issue.

ME ME ME?

In that he maybe wants to keep his DB pension? But doesn't feel too secure in it? The pension he joined AC with and has paid dearly into his entire career and has based his future on?

Seriously, it seems you're challenged on understanding what he was saying.

You might not be familiar that the MEPP can absolutely be "touched".

I thought you read the material?

It's written in black and white in the new contract. Did you read that? Or just the ACPA slides?

AC can unilaterally withaw from cwipp and place pilots back on a DC plan if conditions change. I'm not sure why we gave so much just to have an opt out clause for the corporation...

The company does not have an opt out clause on the DB pension. It's in our contract, but it can be negotiated away - like KV and friends tried in 2011 - only to have it voted down by the guys you seem to have so much disdain for... and then the Feds took it anyway.

Your ill will and resentment is misdirected.

Why are you carrying on about age 60 anyway?

[groundpilot]

Yes I read the MOA, and it's purpose is that AC must still contribute to an interim DC if there are regulatory changes. It's there to protect us from AC avoiding contributions.

All the contributions up to that point are in the multi employer pension plan and AC isn't touching it...

The new plan isn't perfect but it's prob our best option as the DB isn't coming back.

[Jimmy2]

What should one do if they only plan to stay at AC for a few years? Can you contribute to the pension plan and cash out when you leave? Or is there a minimum time you have to contribute before you can get anything out? What about opting out of it entirely?

[altiplano]

Yes I read the MOA, and it's purpose is that AC must still contribute to an interim DC if there are regulatory changes. It's there to protect us from AC avoiding contributions.

All the contributions up to that point are in the multi employer pension plan and AC isn't touching it...

The new plan isn't perfect but it's prob our best option as the DB isn't coming back.

You said:

"MEPP cannot be touched without concessions"

and clearly that isn't true as you acknowledge it now.
They can wind it up and go back to a DC unilaterally on their determination.

I fail to see your point then?

DB cannot be touched either in that the money is mine, not the employers. It is protected by government pension legislation.

Further:

DB cannot be unilaterally terminated. It is in the contract.

If you think TBP is the best option for you, great, you have it now.

So let's get back to what dockjock said and focus on getting together and getting our take home pay today higher. You appear to be the one divided...

Higher pay today = higher pay on your TBP pension. More money saved outside your pension for your future and my future... Time to move past the division.... We certainly paid for it...

[altiplano]

I will also add.

With our DB in such a surplus, pilots still paying extra that was mandated when the pension was in deficit, corp on a never ending funding holiday, a near bulletproofed de-risk strategy, our extra contributions now going toward our own serp... The DB is on solid ground and costs the company nothing...

Make no mistake, we are paying for our own pensions... it's not some corporate gift.

It's the decisions by the guys back in ACPA leadership today - after being recalled in 2011 - that resulted in you not having DB too.

The big gain for the corporation is division.
DC/TBP costs them more than DB... but DIVISION IS PRICELESS...

We have to move forward now together as a group, keep everything we have and focus on membership-wide gains... not boutique targeted gains designed to achieve 53%...

[groundpilot]

You can cash out the MEPP via a "transfer value" or defer the annuity to age 60 with no penalties.

Regulations could change for the MEPP, who knows as more employers grab onto the idea as it gets lots of income tax relief. Even if this were to happen, AC would still be on the hook for contributions.

Yes you paid into your DB pension, but the issue is that it is based on your best 5 years, so in theory a pilot could bid RP for 25 years and then be a B777 Captain for the last 5. He hardly paid his share with his contributions.

From what I understood, Your SERP is absolutely negotiable as it is based on company revenues, and thus could be subject to changes with concessions. With a MEPP it is locked away with a different organization, not sure how I else I can spell this out. AC can't touch it. If AC goes belly up, you don't have a SERP. But maybe I'm missing something here but this is what I was told.

[altiplano]

Everything is ultimately negotiable as far as what goes on into the future...

But the DB portion everyone has paid to this far is ours no matter what happens with the corporation or contract. Just like what you put into your DC/TBP.

Serp is paid by the company from general revenues, it's in our contract, they can't unilaterally take it away.
But now, with the DB is so far in surplus, extra payments go to funding and guaranteeing all or a portion of that serp - even if the company gets wound up.

As far as a 25 year RP career and last 5 WB capt... not a very common scenario... maybe it happens a few times... but it certainly isn't the norm... most guys will do plenty of years of high earning. But since it's a group plan that's the deal and it's insulated from anomalies like that. Just like the guys that live to 100 and the guys that die a year after retirement... It averages out... the actuaries have that figured... Most guys work hard and earn well and we pay a ton into our pension. Pre-pay group GFd RPs make pretty good money too... better than a 320 FO so they certainly pay a good chunk...

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're worried about who has paid their fair share in the DB plan. I'm not worried about it and it's my plan... and it hasn't ever been in such good shape.

DC guys going after DB guys in the future when they have a majority is a DFR... besides, here we've all made sacrifices to get you on a plan you obviously value as better than a DB.

So get with it and let's make some across the board gains for ALL ACPA pilots going forward - gains that will improve our QOL and earnings today and into the future.

Dwelling on differences that were forced on us - esp when we just made such a sacrifice to narrow/eliminate it - does nothing but continue to divide us.

[groundpilot]

I would much much rather be on a DB but it wasn't an option...

I guess you take what you can get as the saying goes

The RP example was just an illustration of another reason why the company had zero interest in a DB. They want career progression, and with a lot of growth and retirements in the future, they are going to need it.

[altiplano]

I would much much rather be on a DB but it wasn't an option...

I guess you take what you can get as the saying goes

The RP example was just an illustration of another reason why the company had zero interest in a DB. They want career progression, and with a lot of growth and retirements in the future, they are going to need it.

Maybe, but I'll say it again... DIVISION IS PRICELESS.

I wanted us all back on the DB that was illegally taken from us... but this ACPA leadership group won't pursue the case against C33... they won't stand up against their corporate masters... weak.

2 Status quo LEC chairs ACCLAIMED today... so it looks like it isn't going to move ahead... Hope for change in at least one of the remaining bases to vote...

Anyway... time to move forward. We overpaid for the TBP, but it's done, you see it as an improvement, great, now let's focus on improvements to get us ALL toward the levels of contract improvements our peers at other network and legacy airlines have seen in 2020.

More money and better life = better today and better retirement for me and all my AC brothers and sisters.

We get that by holding onto everything we have today. No more concessions or "offsets"...

That's all I care about moving forward. Period.

[Dockjock]

ME ME ME? You mean, how we just went an entire bargaining round and the main- really, only- major improvement is YOUR pension? Huh. It needed to be done, it would just be nice if people like you recognized what just happened. I know the history, so don't bother.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

.

[Ah_yeah]

You can cash out the MEPP via a "transfer value" or defer the annuity to age 60 with no penalties.

Regulations could change for the MEPP, who knows as more employers grab onto the idea as it gets lots of income tax relief. Even if this were to happen, AC would still be on the hook for contributions.

Yes you paid into your DB pension, but the issue is that it is based on your best 5 years, so in theory a pilot could bid RP for 25 years and then be a B777 Captain for the last 5. He hardly paid his share with his contributions.

From what I understood, Your SERP is absolutely negotiable as it is based on company revenues, and thus could be subject to changes with concessions. With a MEPP it is locked away with a different organization, not sure how I else I can spell this out. AC can't touch it. If AC goes belly up, you don't have a SERP. But maybe I'm missing something here but this is what I was told.

Glad to hear this. This is your leverage going forward. If/When the market for pilots become critical in more hospitable parts of the world your experience will demand some serious coin. As a twenty year AC pilot, I give you one piece of advice : Never trust ACPA to look out for your career. In less than 10 years, you can have my seat but the way our union is handling things you'll probably have better opportunities elsewhere.