Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

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goingnowherefast
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by goingnowherefast »

daedalusx wrote:Sad thing is everyone here has a valid point, on both side of the aisle.

OF course a lot of post 2015 Jazz guys are bitter and envious, wouldn't you, if you'd quit a nice 703/4/5 job because it was made clear that the way to mainline is through express then get pfoed for lack of degree when you have 4000/5000+ hrs with mpic and turbine and now stuck on the B Scale, especially when your interview was based on the original A scale then bait and switched on the offer.

In an era of unprecedented growth and forecast of movement due to retirements, one would hope that the pilots group would unify to improve everyone's T+C instead of this current crab bucket mentality of 'If I can't have it then neither should you' or 'why should I bleed for the unborn'
Jazz is still riding on their pre-2015 reputation, not the current trend of degrading slowly into a stepping stone. Plus everyone was told "if you want to work for AC, you have to go to Jazz(Express)". It was almost as if the guarantee was implied. We all know there is no guarantee, but we are all allowed to believe it. Now PFOs are becoming more common, OTS hiring has reopened and the Jazz B scale pilots are even more bitter. After all, many of them took a substantial pay cut and were told that the short term pain meant long term gain once at AC.

Personally, I have avoided the whole mess. I just feel for my friends who are living it. Some are quitting before even getting the PFO because the whole process disgusts them.
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Dockjock
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Dockjock »

atphat wrote:
Dockjock wrote:Cannot believe people are griping about the requirement for a university degree or college diploma. It's been like that since at least the 1970s. Not to put too fine a point on in but this career involves a fair amount of reading the requirements and expectations, and then following them exactly.
I agree it has been this way for quite some time. There could be a million reasons why someone does not have a degree or diploma. All of them having nothing to do with their ability to fly an airplane professionally, and having the ability to read and follow requirements and expectations.
Probably a topic for another thread though.
The requirements are on the website. Haven’t changed in decades.
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altiplano
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

mbav8r wrote:
Sharklasers wrote:Things are going in the right direction with the prospect of repatriating regional flying to the mainline like they are doing in the States.
There will be less terrible regional jobs and more mainline jobs for whoever Air Canada choose to hire.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Maybe if the RRA(repatriation) wasn’t at reduced wages, the tide is not rising as much as you imply.
This was another chess move by CR while ACPA was still playing checkers, reality was with a lack of pilots at Express, up gauging was inevitable, you gave it to them on a silver platter.
You got that right. What a mistake - I can't believe people thought to B-scale ourselves as a gain, when we would have got it at full pop.

To be accurate regarding education:
AC doesn't require a degree or diploma, you just have to be damn sharp without one and exceed all the other points:
- lots of diverse experience
- flight time, command time, big airplanes
- test and interview well

Nobody owes you anything, whatever your background, education, experience...

Sometimes everyone looks and wonders why that guy didn't get hired and that guy did... you can't explain it and it's not personal... it just is what it is...

Didn't get hired? Keep trying or go have a cry... learn to accept it and you will be happier...
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GATRKGA
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by GATRKGA »

I legitimately see everyone's point of view.

Now here's my point of view.

As for the people who say "what about CargoJet guys, why aren't they entitled to a job with AC" ... or "does flying a B1900 guarantee you a job at Beechcraft" etc, I think you're missing something with that opinion. If it weren't for the divisive mandate of Air Canada, all of these jobs would have been mainline jobs, and all of us would have been employed by mainline to do the jobs.

I also don't see how being good enough to "represent" Air Canada means that you may somehow not be a good "fit" for Air Canada. Call a spade a spade, you're either good enough to wear that uniform, or you're not. And no, it's not because the uniform automatically makes you entitled to a job at AC; it's because it is the same job, painted in a second class citizen format to give Calin and his minions an upper edge on their bonuses and weekly golf trips. Don't fool yourselves. The setup is absolutely unacceptable, and anyone falling for it now, knowing how terrible of a setup this is, should seriously consider other avenues. Jazz is NOT the pre-2015 place. As well, with a younger demographic, just watch how the next TA will be voted in favor of the Air Canada colored stick at the expense of a long term, hard earned sets of terms and conditions from the Jazz predecessors. Just to backfire when the young kid sees that he can't get to AC quick enough, and sees his option to put up with second class treatment at express as unacceptable in an ever moving industry.

Also, why many are bitter about the whole thing you say? It is because 99.9% of us who applied to Express were as a result of this misleading email when we applied OTS in March 2016. Yea yea, many didn't go to express, and decided to stick it out on the outside. But when the mothership herself claims that you are encouraged to Apply to express, they are implying that you should go here if you want to work for "Air Canada." Where you will be privy to "representing" us with the hopes of MAYBE being worthy to have "Air Canada" written on your pay cheque.
Hello,

Thank you for submitting your application to the Pilot posting at Air Canada.

The Pilot selection process is extremely competitive and has resulted in over 1000 applications received from highly qualified pilot applicants. We have notified those that we expect to interview in the next 12 months. Your resume will remain in our system and we may be in touch with you in the future. However, we encourage you to consider applying to one of our Air Canada Express partners: Jazz Aviation LP, Air Georgian, Sky Regional Airlines, or Exploits Valley Air Services, as we expect to continue hiring from these companies as well.

Sincerely,


The Recruitment Team

Replies to this message are undeliverable and will not reach the Recruitment Department. Please do not reply.
Why on earth would ANYONE apply to a b scale express job, to stay there? Clearly it's because Air Canada themselves encouraged us to do it, so that we could be deemed "worthy" to one day work for big red. And now they have the audacity to be pleased to accept applications from all non Air Canada express pilots? Yea no, won't fly. And not because of an entitlement issue. It's due to the issue that the thousands that have gone to express in the last 2 years, have sacrificed a lot; to their foolishness today, to find out that it was basically for nothing. Yes there's no guarantees in life, but this type of "encouragement" moves the herd. All you'd need to see from Air Canada today is, "We will no longer be taking applications from Outside, and encourage all parties interested to work for Air Canada, to consider applying to Express." While the physical application to express would be the "fault" of the pilot himself, just watch how the "encouragement" would fill up express with resume's like you wouldn't believe. Including from all those superior 704/705 Captains such as Calm Air ATR Captain's... :rolleyes: So don't be standing there pointing fingers at Express pilot's saying that Air Canada had nothing to do with why many of us ended up at Express. That's extremely cowardly to even insinuate.

What AC doesn't realize is with them planning to take the Encore's, Jetlines, and Flair pilot's, is that their express brand will be emptied. Just about anyone I speak with right now has applications in at Encore - to get to AC or to go overseas. Since Q400 PIC time is now considered acceptable. Possibly a good strategic move to repatriate regional flying on AC's part; there won't be anyone left to work for express. What a kick to the mid-section for all of us who fell for Air Canada's "encouragement" to come and work for these types of outfits. Boy did we get played, and played well.

All I can think of when I see this disgusting setup at Air Canada is, Hunger Games. Divide and Conquer. Eventually it will bite them. The one thing an old mindset based company such as Air Canada doesn't realize, is that the replacement for these so called baby-boomers, comes from millennials. And say what you want to say about them (entitled, attitude issues, etc), they will not put up with nonsense long term. This is a different breed of "youth" which the baby-boomers cannot relate to. Their youth and attitudes are very different than the present day 65 year old who reminiscences about their youth. While a dream today, just about anyone would cross the border and fly if it opened up. While it's not an option today, what does that tell you about the state of affairs in our own industry? It certainly seems to indicate that it's garbage. You can only put so much make up on a 100 year old grand-ma. Millennials bring their issues, but they are also some of the smartest and most efficient breed of human kind at the moment. And airlines all around the world will be happy to scoop them up after they've been ran through the toiletry of Canadian aviation.

Just watch... it won't be pretty.
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DH772
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by DH772 »

I also don't see how being good enough to "represent" Air Canada means that you may somehow not be a good "fit" for Air Canada. Call a spade a, you're either good enough to wear that uniform, or you're not.
No, no you are not.
If you are working at an express carrier, you are wearing a similar uniform working for a company that works for Air Canada. You do not work at Air Canada. Period.

You may be bitter about the situation of being "lured" to the express carriers but this does not change the fact that you aren't entitled to an AC job anymore than an OTS pilot. You're advantage is guaranteeing an interview for yourself someday.
It sucks being PFO'd, but the reality is people will continue being PFO'd at both the express and OTS level for reasons we'll never know.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Sharklasers »

GATRKGA wrote:

Also, why many are bitter about the whole thing you say? It is because 99.9% of us who applied to Express were as a result of this misleading email when we applied OTS in March 2016. Yea yea, many didn't go to express, and decided to stick it out on the outside. But when the mothership herself claims that you are encouraged to Apply to express, they are implying that you should go here if you want to work for "Air Canada." Where you will be privy to "representing" us with the hopes of MAYBE being worthy to have "Air Canada" written on your pay cheque.
Are we to understand that you have been at Skyregional since post March 2016 and STILL Air Canada hasn't opened the doors for you and thrown you a ticker tape parade???
Well let me call Calin right now! Oh wait he's probably golfing...
Maybe you were subconsciously making bitter jealous hate eyes at my collegue on the train and he picked up on it...
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Last edited by Sharklasers on Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
plhought
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by plhought »

Express carriers aren't any better than AC when it comes to hiring.

Works three-ish years on ramp/ops for 703/704/705 charter carrier - right seat king air for a year - hired at Jazz.

Other who in same time frame plies the trade around the boonies getting some seasonal PIC and eventually right seat 705 job along with ATPL - No dice.

Reality is in this industry very rarely does anyone/company owe you anything. Exception may be that broke F/O you bought beers for every time for the last 2 years.
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altiplano
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

No shit...

Maybe 18 months at a regional, fully dispatched, well supported where you probably went captain in under a year and you're having a fit?

It appears that AC is still hiring many from the express carriers. They have given you a guaranteed interview.

Get some perspective. You have zero apparent idea of what it takes historically to advance in this profession, how much experience you needed just get a right seat in a King Air, let alone a Dash8 or a Jet... and then maybe get an interview at AC... after a decade or more trying.

IMO you're sitting pretty good. If you don't like it quit and take one of those better opportunities.
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mbav8r
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by mbav8r »

GATRKGA,
You’re not going to like my answer and keep in mind it’s opinion based on facts, the interview process is not the same at SR, GGN or Jazz let alone AC.
There are pilots at SR who were turned down at Jazz, at least one after interviewing twice at Jazz, there are pilots at Jazz who were turned down at AC before coming here, it’s much easier to get hired by an Express carrier, especially nowadays!
As has been mentioned, the Express route, irony not lost on me, is only a guaranteed interview what you do with that is up to you. I suggest if you’ve been turned down(pfo’d) and you’re not happy making a career of where you are, make the leap now because it only gets harder to go later on.
As for the look you received, I get that look in the airport from time to time, sometimes it’s an AC pilot and others it’s a SR or GGN pilot, I’ve even felt slighted by another Jazz pilot on occasion, I used to take it personally but now I just smile and keep about my day.
Having a good day is a choice you can make!
Cheers
P.S. I used to be quite vocal about SR pilots and how I felt they affected my life, I still smile and say hi to any pilot I encounter, I’ve even enjoyed a two hour conversation with a SR pilot on a flight home recently.
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lyrad6
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by lyrad6 »

Everyone is a lot better off when they realize:

1. No one owes you ANYTHING

2. The only person who's responsible for your results is you

Sounds like the OP hasn't learned that...
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Air.Field
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Air.Field »

To the OP, the only reason that boy talked down to you is because you allowed it. Have a spine. Additionally, to everyone. AC is not the mecca of aviation in Canada. Far from it. The only reason to go there is $ long term. Soo many issues I don't know where to begin, a divided pilot group, and frankly the holier than thou attitudes from many AC pilots is nauseating. It's the same at most airlines, so pick your poison.
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atphat
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Air.Field wrote:AC is not the mecca of aviation in Canada.
AC is hardly perfect but I strongly disagree. For many, many reasons.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Eric Janson »

GATRKGA wrote:Millennials bring their issues, but they are also some of the smartest and most efficient breed of human kind at the moment. And airlines all around the world will be happy to scoop them up after they've been ran through the toiletry of Canadian aviation.
You're joking right?
watch... it won't be pretty
I dread the day that Millenials invade my flight deck - it certainly won't be pretty!
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aerosexual
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by aerosexual »

lyrad6 wrote:Everyone is a lot better off when they realize:

1. No one owes you ANYTHING

2. The only person who's responsible for your results is you

Sounds like the OP hasn't learned that...
One of the "virtues" of millennials that the OP forgot to mention
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PROC_HDG
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by PROC_HDG »

This millennial hating drivel is so tired. 1500 retirements at AC in the next 10 years. Guess what, pretty soon most of the airline will be staffed by millennials. Take your blood pressure medication and STFU already.

PROC_HDG
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fish4life
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by fish4life »

I think one of the biggest differences is the millennials have zero loyalty to the airline they work for, it is yet to be seen but I personally think that will be good for wages. AC was divided by "Canadian" and "Air Canada" guys after the merger and even before they hated each other a lot. Most millennials are willing to jump ship to a job that offers better conditions and they don't care if it means leaving WJ for AC or Jazz for WJ. I also don't see any of this "hate on the competition" with most younger pilots, most seem to want both airlines in Canada to do well because they have friends at the competition and they realize that 2 healthy airlines is better for pilots in general.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Sharklasers »

How did this become a millennial thing?
Millennials are not the 6 million dollar man, like any other demographic we have good ones and bad ones.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by GATRKGA »

It’s interesting to see the replies.

That email wasn’t mine. I had that from several friends who got it in 2016. I was involved with express before.

I’ve been at SR enough to have paid my dues. When you start seeing my FOs who interviewed after me get seniority numbers ahead of myself and many like myself, it means the system is flawed. Again, not because I’m owed something. Rather because AC is taking people and express is releasing people out of seniority. Indicating that the system doesn’t work.

Can someoe tell me how it is that someone being in the company 2-3+ years has their interview process on hold while a 2200 hour FO starting not even 1 year ago is already on a 320 course this fall?

There’s no entitlement issue here. Either the process is streamlined and goes in order of seniority, or it doesn’t and people such as myself speak up about it. If mr 1 year seniority got the job after I had my PFO, then that’s something which bodes a seniority based approach. Having my interview, and many others like me on hold while this sort of thing happens is very disgusting.

You come here to go to AC. If you’re not a good fit here, you’re not a good fit at AC. If you’re a good fit here, you’re a good fit at AC. The two jobs and responsibilities are the same. If AC created a proper flow through, this would be a much better system. This “keeping-their-options” open and cherry picking approach, while putting their express brand through the nonsense that is this PML, will create animosity. If you don’t see it, it’s a very ignorant and possibly cowardly perspective.

As for my own options “altiplano,” I’m very aware that I can leave. And no none of us here sees it as having it “good”... we have made many sacrifices to come to a place like this. Most of us here have more than paid our dues in this industry. And are simply being put through this mess due to our date of birth. Had we had our experiences pre express 5 years ago, we’d all be the dash 8 and 1900 captains hired directly into mainline AC. Now seemingly finding out that having left our experienced “calm air 705 pic type jobs” to come to express to get to AC was completely wrong. So please spare me the lecture on “paying your dues.” I respect your perspective altiplano, but I don’t agree at all.
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altiplano
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

Whatever.It is what it is.

There are people who I trained right seat for their first job, while I was many years established in my career at my third or fourth company who are senior to me at AC.

There are people that hadn't even graduated high school while I was slogging around in large turboprops who are hundreds of numbers senior to me at AC, 10 or 12+ years younger than me...

Stop comparing your career to others and get this idea of life being "fair" out of your head because:
1. It isn't,
2. Ultimately you have zero control, you can't change it,
3. It will make you bitter/unhappy/etc.

I wasn't making a point on paying dues as much as you're not the first one who had work and work and work and couldn't get a break and didn't know why... If you think you're ticking all the boxes, maybe you're missing on something you can't see if you aren't getting a shot... learn a language, go to night school and get some more post secondary credit... maybe change up your resume format and resubmit it... seriously, I did that... changed the font and format on my resume and got a call a month later for the interview... who knows... work on what you can control... or go back to "Calm Air" or wherever if you think that's better... sounds like all those places are in need of qualified guys...
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Air.Field
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Air.Field »

GATRKGA, just from your posts that I recall in the past, you've been informative, good natured, and having been at SR for a few years, I would loosely translate that into being a decent pilot. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, none more so in aviation. All AC deserves to give you and any express pilot at the moment is just a silly interview. Requirements and questions that have zero bearing on a pilots ability. The hiring system at AC is indeed flawed. Always has been. Like a degree in bull$hit makes one a better pilot. If I was incharge of hiring, I'd base it off experience and skills. That's what makes a good pilot good. Not some f'ing piece of paper in a frame.

A guaranteed flow certainly would be beneficial to AC and express carriers. However, the HR amoeba's that think they are wise gate keepers, ... are to the point doing a $hit job. Don't blame them. They don't know any better. Which in this industry is a shame. The one thing AC is good at doing, is pissing off people, whether customers, or AC and Express employees. They suffered some bad PR in the past, and again are on that road, and that's not including the CBC bias.

I don't know what to tell you, at one point for the longest while I wanted to go to AC. Am I a good pilot? I would say definitely yes, and many personally who know me would agree. I have been in this industry for closing in on 20 yrs. I see many newbies getting ahead. At the beginning, it didn't bother me. It was just all bad luck and career choices. Then it started to bother me, it made going to work suck a$$. And now, once again it doesn't bother me because I don't give a flying F*** about getting into the pants of AC, because as I indicated above, AC isn't that great that many would think/believe. I have friends there, and I know and hear the stories and how their operations are conducted. And in my opinion, it's a lost cause losing sleep to get into that "place". Honestly, I'd much rather drive a friggin dump truck, as AC can suck my balls. And to end on that... going to work feels much better for me with that attitude... YMMV.
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Last edited by Air.Field on Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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