Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

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Air.Field
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Air.Field »

also, altiplano makes a good point, if you have the hard on to get to AC, try a new approach.
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Victory
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Victory »

Calm Air. The new PML to Air Canada!
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atphat
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Air.Field wrote:GATRKGA, just from your posts that I recall in the past, you've been informative, good natured, and having been at SR for a few years, I would loosely translate that into being a decent pilot. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, none more so in aviation. All AC deserves to give you and any express pilot at the moment is just a silly interview. Requirements and questions that have zero bearing on a pilots ability. The hiring system at AC is indeed flawed. Always has been. Like a degree in bull$hit makes one a better pilot. If I was incharge of hiring, I'd base it off experience and skills. That's what makes a good pilot good. Not some f'ing piece of paper in a frame.

A guaranteed flow certainly would be beneficial to AC and express carriers. However, the HR amoeba's that think they are wise gate keepers, ... are to the point doing a $hit job. Don't blame them. They don't know any better. Which in this industry is a shame. The one thing AC is good at doing, is pissing off people, whether customers, or AC and Express employees. They suffered some bad PR in the past, and again are on that road, and that's not including the CBC bias.

I don't know what to tell you, at one point for the longest while I wanted to go to AC. Am I a good pilot? I would say definitely yes, and many personally who know me would agree. I have been in this industry for closing in on 20 yrs. I see many newbies getting ahead. At the beginning, it didn't bother me. It was just all bad luck and career choices. Then it started to bother me, it made going to work suck a$$. And now, once again it doesn't bother me because I don't give a flying F*** about getting into the pants of AC, because as I indicated above, AC isn't that great that many would think/believe. I have friends there, and I know and hear the stories and how their operations are conducted. And in my opinion, it's a lost cause losing sleep to get into that "place". Honestly, I'd much rather drive a friggin dump truck, as AC can suck my balls. And to end on that... going to work feels much better for me with that attitude... YMMV.
You sound like my bitter ex girlfriend.
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Dark Helmet
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Dark Helmet »

I try to avoid posting here and have not posted for a while. Hard to ignore this topic as I have sat on both sides of the fence.

Truthfully, many pilots are qualified to work at AC. Unfortunately, no one is entitled or deserving of a job at AC. There are more losers then winners (OTS and Express).

Getting hired at AC (whether Express or OTS) is extremely difficult and competitive. Sadly, many that do get hired at AC (the AC pilot GATRKGA dealt with and some posters on this forum) fail to realize and understand this.

The big issue is the lack of career progression predictability when it comes to hiring at AC. For example:

At WJ it is more or less cut and dry. Go to Encore and wait til your # comes up and flow to WJ with your sen#, or if you have more experience you can take your chances and try to go direct to mainline understanding that it will be more competitive. Either way, there are no guarantees but its more predictable.

In the US, at AMR its a straight flow through from certain connecting carriers.

UAL and DAL its a guarantee interview similar to the PML at AC. Unlike AC, at these carriers the majority of pilots actually GET HIRED when interviewed from the connectors. You would have to F*** really bad on the interview or be a very poor employee at the connector not to get hired. Again are there guarantees? NO. Is there any predictability? YES.

Hiring process at AC has changed dramatically over the last 20 years. There are a lot of unwritten requirements. A pilot hired this week may not have stood a chance 5 years ago, or 5 years from now with the same credentials. A pilot PFO last month may have gotten hired no problem 5 years ago etc...

Back in the 90's it was mostly from the connectors. Many qualified OTS pilots had to go and spend 6 months to a year at the connectors before joining AC.

During the 2000's after CCAA many experienced pilots left the north and joined Jazz with expectations of joining AC down the road(like in the 90's). Many were disappointed to find out the the ones joining AC were their former FO's at their old carriers. AC did hire from Jazz but not to the amount that they were in the 90's.

Early 2010' it was a free for all, no PML, no flow-through, if you were at Express you just applied like everyone else. Everyone was treated as OTS. This was the case until PML 1.0.

Once PML 1.0 was announced, the OTS pilots were at a disadvantage. What next? Do you go to express and hope for one of the 80% of the slots or chance it for the 20% available to OTS?

Those OTS pilots that went to express found out the hard way that PML 2.0 was not as robust as PML 1.0. Actually it sounds very similar to post CCAA hiring, So now what?

Now the window for OTS is open again, what happens when it closes? What happens when PML 3.0 comes out, if it comes out? Nobody knows but there will be winners and losers...

Seriously how does one get on with AC:

1. Leave that stable job to go get that jet time from that fly by night operator?
2. Leave that good job from a place you like to live in and move to YYZ to worlk at express?
3. Quit flying and go back to school and get a degree?
4. Offer rum and pray to Jobu like Pedro Cerrano?

Many have tried one or two of those strategies only to find out that they were unsuccessful because the goal posts have changed and npw they needed to explore the other strategy instead. And all they have to go by from others is "you dont deserve a job at AC and no one owes you anything" :roll:

Yes getting PFO sucks, it stings it is frustrating and I fully understand that. You are not the first and wont be the last. However, if someone really wants AC hang in there and be patient. The opportunity will present itself again for those that really want it. 500+ vacancies on the last bid.

For my fellow pilots at AC. Please be more gracious and professional towards our Express pilots. You could have gotten PFO just as much as the next guy. Be grateful that your didn't. Even with the RRA provision, AC will still have a connector with a demand for pilots to fly those airplanes.

FWIW movement in the industry right now is unprecedented!!! There are many opportunities for pilots right now that were simply non existent 5-10-15 years ago. However those opportunities would be more beneficial to us pilots if we had real leadership and solitary in our profession...

Anyways rant over.

Best of luck to all

DH
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Last edited by Dark Helmet on Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by dhc# »

Air.Field wrote:GATRKGA, just from your posts that I recall in the past, you've been informative, good natured, and having been at SR for a few years, I would loosely translate that into being a decent pilot. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, none more so in aviation. All AC deserves to give you and any express pilot at the moment is just a silly interview. Requirements and questions that have zero bearing on a pilots ability. The hiring system at AC is indeed flawed. Always has been. Like a degree in bull$hit makes one a better pilot. If I was incharge of hiring, I'd base it off experience and skills. That's what makes a good pilot good. Not some f'ing piece of paper in a frame.

A guaranteed flow certainly would be beneficial to AC and express carriers. However, the HR amoeba's that think they are wise gate keepers, ... are to the point doing a $hit job. Don't blame them. They don't know any better. Which in this industry is a shame. The one thing AC is good at doing, is pissing off people, whether customers, or AC and Express employees. They suffered some bad PR in the past, and again are on that road, and that's not including the CBC bias.

I don't know what to tell you, at one point for the longest while I wanted to go to AC. Am I a good pilot? I would say definitely yes, and many personally who know me would agree. I have been in this industry for closing in on 20 yrs. I see many newbies getting ahead. At the beginning, it didn't bother me. It was just all bad luck and career choices. Then it started to bother me, it made going to work suck a$$. And now, once again it doesn't bother me because I don't give a flying F*** about getting into the pants of AC, because as I indicated above, AC isn't that great that many would think/believe. I have friends there, and I know and hear the stories and how their operations are conducted. And in my opinion, it's a lost cause losing sleep to get into that "place". Honestly, I'd much rather drive a friggin dump truck, as AC can suck my balls. And to end on that... going to work feels much better for me with that attitude... YMMV.
^
^
Awesome 8)
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GATRKGA
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by GATRKGA »

Dark Helmet wrote:I try to avoid posting here and have not posted for a while. Hard to ignore this topic as I have sat on both sides of the fence.

Truthfully, many pilots are qualified to work at AC. Unfortunately, no one is entitled or deserving of a job at AC. There are more losers then winners (OTS and Express).

Getting hired at AC (whether Express or OTS) is extremely difficult and competitive. Sadly, many that do get hired at AC (the AC pilot GATRKGA dealt with and some posters on this forum) fail to realize and understand this.

The big issue is the lack of career progression predictability when it comes to hiring at AC. For example:

At WJ it is more or less cut and dry. Go to Encore and wait til your # comes up and flow to WJ with your sen#, or if you have more experience you can take your chances and try to go direct to mainline understanding that it will be more competitive. Either way, there are no guarantees but its more predictable.

In the US, at AMR its a straight flow through from certain connecting carriers.

UAL and DAL its a guarantee interview similar to the PML at AC. Unlike AC, at these carriers the majority of pilots actually GET HIRED when interviewed from the connectors. You would have to F*** really bad on the interview or be a very poor employee at the connector not to get hired. Again are there guarantees? NO. Is there any predictability? YES.

Hiring process at AC has changed dramatically over the last 20 years. There are a lot of unwritten requirements. A pilot hired this week may not have stood a chance 5 years ago, or 5 years from now with the same credentials. A pilot PFO last month may have gotten hired no problem 5 years ago etc...

Back in the 90's it was mostly from the connectors. Many qualified OTS pilots had to go and spend 6 months to a year at the connectors before joining AC.

During the 2000's after CCAA many experienced pilots left the north and joined Jazz with expectations of joining AC down the road(like in the 90's). Many were disappointed to find out the the ones joining AC were their former FO's at their old carriers. AC did hire from Jazz but not to the amount that they were in the 90's.

Early 2010' it was a free for all, no PML, no flow-through, if you were at Express you just applied like everyone else. Everyone was treated as OTS. This was the case until PML 1.0.

Once PML 1.0 was announced, the OTS pilots were at a disadvantage. What next? Do you go to express and hope for one of the 80% of the slots or chance it for the 20% available to OTS?

Those OTS pilots that went to express found out the hard way that PML 2.0 was not as robust as PML 1.0. Actually it sounds very similar to post CCAA hiring, So now what?

Now the window for OTS is open again, what happens when it closes? What happens when PML 3.0 comes out, if it comes out? Nobody knows but there will be winners and losers...

Seriously how does one get on with AC:

1. Leave that stable job to go get that jet time from that fly by night operator?
2. Leave that good job from a place you like to live in and move to YYZ to worlk at express?
3. Quit flying and go back to school and get a degree?
4. Offer rum and pray to Jobu like Pedro Cerrano?

Many have tried one or two of those strategies only to find out that they were unsuccessful because the goal posts have changed and npw they needed to explore the other strategy instead. And all they have to go by from others is "you dont deserve a job at AC and no one owes you anything" :roll:

Yes getting PFO sucks, it stings it is frustrating and I fully understand that. You are not the first and wont be the last. However, if someone really wants AC hang in there and be patient. The opportunity will present itself again for those that really want it. 500+ vacancies on the last bid.

For my fellow pilots at AC. Please be more gracious and professional towards our Express pilots. You could have gotten PFO just as much as the next guy. Be grateful that your didn't. Even with the RRA provision, AC will still have a connector with a demand for pilots to fly those airplanes.

FWIW movement in the industry right now is unprecedented!!! There are many opportunities for pilots right now that were simply non existent 5-10-15 years ago. However those opportunities would be more beneficial to us pilots if we had real leadership and solitary in our profession...

Anyways rant over.

Best of luck to all

DH
Seriously one of THE best posts I've ever seen written on here. Let me guess, you're one of those unsung hero's at mainline that SHOULD be in a leadership position, but probably isn't due to a multitude of reasons. Thank you for such a leadership oriented answer on the matter, and for understanding exactly what it is I, and I'm sure many of my colleagues feel regarding the matter.
Air.Field wrote:GATRKGA, just from your posts that I recall in the past, you've been informative, good natured, and having been at SR for a few years, I would loosely translate that into being a decent pilot. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, none more so in aviation. All AC deserves to give you and any express pilot at the moment is just a silly interview. Requirements and questions that have zero bearing on a pilots ability. The hiring system at AC is indeed flawed. Always has been. Like a degree in bull$hit makes one a better pilot. If I was incharge of hiring, I'd base it off experience and skills. That's what makes a good pilot good. Not some f'ing piece of paper in a frame.

A guaranteed flow certainly would be beneficial to AC and express carriers. However, the HR amoeba's that think they are wise gate keepers, ... are to the point doing a $hit job. Don't blame them. They don't know any better. Which in this industry is a shame. The one thing AC is good at doing, is pissing off people, whether customers, or AC and Express employees. They suffered some bad PR in the past, and again are on that road, and that's not including the CBC bias.

I don't know what to tell you, at one point for the longest while I wanted to go to AC. Am I a good pilot? I would say definitely yes, and many personally who know me would agree. I have been in this industry for closing in on 20 yrs. I see many newbies getting ahead. At the beginning, it didn't bother me. It was just all bad luck and career choices. Then it started to bother me, it made going to work suck a$$. And now, once again it doesn't bother me because I don't give a flying F*** about getting into the pants of AC, because as I indicated above, AC isn't that great that many would think/believe. I have friends there, and I know and hear the stories and how their operations are conducted. And in my opinion, it's a lost cause losing sleep to get into that "place". Honestly, I'd much rather drive a friggin dump truck, as AC can suck my balls. And to end on that... going to work feels much better for me with that attitude... YMMV.
Yea... you may be onto something. I just fear thinking like this may actually be a defense mechanism for what you actually want, and bolster further into a depressive mood over time. I don't know for sure, just speculate. But I appreciate that you recognize that I'm not coming from a bad place when I'm speaking up about this. Like you said, I have good intentions and try to be informative regarding anyone trying to join SR. When a company isn't unionized, people don't know what they're getting themselves into. And if information can be given to help people make better, and more educated decisions (unlike many of us who came to express to get on with AC), then I think I've done the little bit of giving back that can be done on an online forum.

On the topic of AC and whether it's a good place, not a good place, etc. I think the truth is that, because it's the best in Canada, the bias tends to over rule towards it being "amazing." When in fact it doesn't come without its issues. From the time I've been involved in the express umbrella, it is the generic opinion of myself and many that they've never seen a company be so more dysfunctional and divisive as Air Canada. This opinion comes from many ex AC, EK, QR, EY, CX, KAL employees who helped establish the likes of SR jet ops. Practices which are common around the industry, appear to AC's operation as rocket science to accomplish. In my time at express as well I have gained the same perspective, that while it would be nice and extremely comfortable if I could get on with mainline, I wouldn't be terribly upset if I didn't get the job either. Because better exists out there. It just requires a move and an exit strategy to come back home which requires diligent planning and research. But not impossible. If done properly, will bode to be a better retirement and life quality than AC as well. Before anyone gets their under wear twisted over "how can this express pilot possibly preach this being a 175 captain" ... I'm lucky to be in a very informed and inclusive network of professionals in this industry, to know very well what I'd be getting myself into be it as an expatriate as opposed to AC. And I won't deny that AC can offer an excellent career as well. It just isn't the only place to do so. And I think as Canadians, we forget this. Largely due to lack of info on the world that exists out there in our industry.

But this thread, SHOULD be an eye opener to anyone at the moment in the process, or thinking about the process of applying to express. The more information you have, the better. Hence why this thread is called Express vs Mainline Pilot's - It gets your attention and gets you to delve into the details that you MUST consider if you're OTS thinking about the express route. I certainly wish I had the info I have today before I came here. Because I wouldn't. I would've stayed where I was and worked towards AC OTS or the expatriate life that was also available to me through my old company.

Thanks for everyone's involvement. I really meant it when I said I wanted a genuine discussion. And all opinions are seriously appreciated, even if it got a bit heated.
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Jimmy2
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Jimmy2 »

My recommendation to not become bitter is to chase salary, not metal.

I've never accepted a low paying job other than my very first FO position. My colleagues that thought they found a shortcut by going to express carriers earned less than half of what I have over the years. I've worked all over the world and seen places most people never get to. I made good money, and had a great time doing it. A pilot's license is a ticket to an interesting and exciting life.

I am now in the hiring process at AC, but if I don't succeed oh well. You guys sound like a PFO is the most devastating thing that could happen to you. I'll go do something else, somewhere more interesting. I won't have to cut my lifestyle for 4 years on AC's flay pay scheme.

You risked a chunk of your income earning years to go work for peanuts in the hope it might get you to AC quicker. Your actions harm our profession and nobody is going to respect that.

So many people get into flying because they could never work a 9 to 5. Yet as soon as they can, they take a job that is the aviation equivalent of one.
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altiplano
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

I'll say it again, there is nothing new here... This is what I said about it 2.5 years ago, maybe around the time you were starting at Express.
On April 19, 2015 altiplano wrote:AC has changed the way it hires and from where many times over the years so any strategizing over which company you do/don't go to will change by the time you may/may not get called by AC.

Depending on where you are in your career and what you've done in general I'd just follow the proven formula of progress... Right seat, left seat, bigger aeroplane repeat, at the best company I could get on with that suited my needs...
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=102652&p=925969&hi ... ge#p925969

An interested observer can easily look back over the years on this forum, or ask about AC's varied hiring trends.

The one constant is that they always change. If you are surprised it hasn't gone the way you wanted, you haven't paid attention and you aren't the first...
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by JBI »

I can't believe I'm partially agreeing with Jimmy2! :lol:
Jimmy2 wrote:..I've worked all over the world and seen places most people never get to. I made good money, and had a great time doing it. A pilot's license is a ticket to an interesting and exciting life.

I am now in the hiring process at AC, but if I don't succeed oh well. You guys sound like a PFO is the most devastating thing that could happen to you. I'll go do something else, somewhere more interesting.
Without wanting to sound like a tacky inspirational post on LinkedIn, some of the best adventures and experiences in life came from not getting something I thought I wanted. And in aviation, I can say that the jobs that I wanted the most and "so badly" were the ones that I actually found less rewarding in the long run.

I had a great chat with an AC pilot a few months ago about all the hiring at AC. He had the best quote: "If you're happy where you are now, you'll be happy at AC. If you're unhappy at your current airline, you'll be unhappy at AC"
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sanjet
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by sanjet »

JBI wrote:.
I had a great chat with an AC pilot a few months ago about all the hiring at AC. He had the best quote: "If you're happy where you are now, you'll be happy at AC. If you're unhappy at your current airline, you'll be unhappy at AC"
Agree, I've seen some people that will never be satisfied no matter where they are.
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Mart
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Mart »

Why does pilot think bigger is better? If we change the way we think about our profession and stop seeing regional flying as a stepping stone to a false paradise maybe things could change. Not every pilots want to be stranded in a cockpit for 10 hrs straight flying tiring overseas leg and looking at a computer screen while doing so. Some of us actually do like to fly and want to do it.

If your goal is AC, Portal for OTS hiring will be open once a year every year.
Mobility agreement between regional and AC is also through a list that you have to sign once a year WHEN window is open so if you come in when windows is close be prepare to stick around.

So overall come to the regional ONLY if you like the lifestyle and want to work to improve the WAWCON or IF you goal is AC AND your current employer doesn’t offer much. Meaning, staying in the regional while you wait for AC is an overall improvement from your current employment. But be prepare to stay if AC say so.

Taking a pay cut or huge wawcon reduction in hope for a quicker possible homerun with Air Canada is really a bad idea. If you have the requirement for AC you’ll be treated equally from the OTS or Regional for now.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Mart wrote:Why does pilot think bigger is better?
Because like it or not that’s where the best pay and lifestyle lies, especially with time. Maybe I’m getting older but all I care about are really two things. 1. How much do I make. 2. How much time do I need to spend at work to get it.
Having fun at work “hands and feet” style is just so unimportant to me. But I’m probably the minorty. Give me the most boring flights ever when I get to work and I’ll be happy.
To each their own.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by floats4fun »

Have junior/low time FO's gone from the express carriers to AC via the PML (of any version)? Merely curious if that has ever happened. I am OTS and wondering at what point (as an express pilot) do you get that interview.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by GATRKGA »

floats4fun wrote:Have junior/low time FO's gone from the express carriers to AC via the PML (of any version)? Merely curious if that has ever happened. I am OTS and wondering at what point (as an express pilot) do you get that interview.
Oh yes. Oct 23rd had 2 FO’s with less than 2500. Both from SR
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Rowdy »

There have been quite a few FO's that had been at jazz at or around a year in recent AC ground schools as well.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by '97 Tercel »

atphat wrote:
Mart wrote:Why does pilot think bigger is better?
Because like it or not that’s where the best pay and lifestyle lies, especially with time. Maybe I’m getting older but all I care about are really two things. 1. How much do I make. 2. How much time do I need to spend at work to get it.
Having fun at work “hands and feet” style is just so unimportant to me. But I’m probably the minorty. Give me the most boring flights ever when I get to work and I’ll be happy.
To each their own.

That's true - at some point it shouldn't be what you're doing at work but what you're doing when you're not working.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by watermeth »

GATRKGA,

you're disappointed, it's normal when one realizes he made a bad decision. However you should refrain from putting the blame on other people's luck. You don't know what they've done, what they went through or how they performed.

since the beginning of this pml concept with jazz and the SR creation and this 'carrot flow through thing' and the encore-poop-show I refrained from applying to those places knowing it was a sucker move right off the bat. Did I find my career was lagging behind sometimes ? of course yes. Did I acquire a valuable experience by sticking to my current employer and logging time that would put me first in line to interview for this airline job ? I guess so.

you won't change the world and the way it evolves. just change your goals. so many people didn't have the opportunity to make it to this coveted flying-for-a-living seat.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by rookiepilot »

Happened to stumble across this, as I'm a serial reader while watching the World Series. Close game.

Anyway just wanted to express to you guys....you have my empathy and understanding for the difficult cesspool it seems the industry is. A lot of stress, I read here. We outside, have no idea. Must diminish the joy of flying for some. I am sorry for this, and if I haven't come across that way.

I'm not in the industry, it was never my cup of tea, just fly for myself, run a small business so definitely a capitalist --- but I absolutely HATE on a bigger picture basis how all big private industry -- not just yours --- does everything possible, in many cases quite nasty, to maximize profits and executive bonuses. Setting employees against each other. Contract employees, no benefits. Uberization of employees. Automation. It's ugly.

It's gone way too far. And it is really hard for the younger generation to get their house in order, get a house, all that stuff. Standards of living are going down.

Anyway wanted to share. Good luck to all.
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Mart
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Mart »

'97 Tercel wrote:
atphat wrote:
Mart wrote:Why does pilot think bigger is better?
Because like it or not that’s where the best pay and lifestyle lies, especially with time. Maybe I’m getting older but all I care about are really two things. 1. How much do I make. 2. How much time do I need to spend at work to get it.
Having fun at work “hands and feet” style is just so unimportant to me. But I’m probably the minorty. Give me the most boring flights ever when I get to work and I’ll be happy.
To each their own.

That's true - at some point it shouldn't be what you're doing at work but what you're doing when you're not working.
Sorry guys but I don’t believe you.
Like it or not as an employee you will spend 1/2 of your life working. So there is not enough money in the world to make me do something boring or something I don’t like for half of my life. That as been proven numerous times also in the past by social science and psychologist. You just can’t, it’s just to darn depressing. So cut the crap, the reality is you have to enjoy what your doing at some point to keep going. Of course I’d rather be home with my family everyday and having a millions dollars to spend every month doing so but unless your self employed or a CEO that won’t happen. The reality is that it’s a seniority base system and it’s not perfect. Good for you if you have above average days off and pay but for those little gains that you make, many of us as too loose.

So stop selling yourself for cheap. Go to the regional if you like the lifestyle and if it’s an improvement from your current position. Same apply for AC go for it if it’s an improvement from your current position and you like the lifestyle otherwise stay where you are and let the other bend over for nothing. And if your really looking for good money forget about Canadian airlines, there is way much more out there. And enjoy YOUR life not the one you think you could have had if you followed someone else path.
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atphat
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Don’t believe me then. Lol
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