Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

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altiplano
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#26 Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:35 pm

I don't believe rouge is the way to go if you want to be a Mainline pilot, working under Mainline work conditions.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#27 Post by atphat » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:42 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:35 pm
I don't believe rouge is the way to go if you want to be a Mainline pilot, working under Mainline work conditions.
I don't think Mainline is the way to go, if you want to be a Rouge pilot, under Rouge working conditions. Just sayin'
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#28 Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:54 pm

Just saying what exactly?

That you'd rather work under inferior work rules?

Rouge is only appealing for now because they've taken so much cherry flying from Mainline.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#29 Post by atphat » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:12 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:54 pm
Just saying what exactly?

That you'd rather work under inferior work rules?

Rouge is only appealing for now because they've taken so much cherry flying from Mainline.
So far 600 or so pilots are at Rouge. NONE of them forced there. Are you really that out of touch? It's not 2012. Rouge is what it is.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#30 Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:23 am

Maybe you think I'm out of touch, but you're kinda being a dick about it...

I simply made an affirmative statement that some pilots prefer Mainline. Sure, Rouge is good for some, but Rouge is not "the way to go" for everyone as another poster stated.

I did my stint at rouge when I WAS FORCE REDUCED THERE - I came back to Mainline as soon as I could, it wasn't for me.

I acknowledge Rouge has its benefits, primarily because of the great flying they have, but the work conditions and pay are inferior and that's in black and white - contract/cars.

Tell me, do you plan to stay at Rouge forever? If it was decided that Rouge were to be spun off, a la Aveos, where would you go?

The disdain you display for Mainline and your Mainline colleague is disappointing.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#31 Post by atphat » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:29 am

I don't fly at Rouge. I don't have disdain for mainline. Do you really think all the senior pilots to you would go with Rouge if they sold it? You'd permit that? It would be a bump and flush bid because that's what would be fair. The pay and working conditions are inferior in your opinion. It's telling that you automatically assume that if someone has positive things to say about Rouge they must fly there and have disdain for mainline. Anyways. As you said. There is choice. Choice is good.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#32 Post by rudder » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:00 am

I believe the point that Altiplano is making is that the segmentization of the NB Airbus flying and the 767 flying at AC in to separate divisions had a measureable impact on the QOL for the mainline fleet pilots on those same equipment types. It is likely what lead to the maximum work day provision limitation based on DMM that was added to the collective agreement. The addition of Rouge also created an inverted seniority demographic upon implementation which is slowly normalizing as the Rouge pay progression deficiencies were remedied and more mainline pilots bid over to Rouge for better schedules.

Bottom line - as a group the AC pilots would be better off with consolidated flight operations (irrespective of paint job) but certain individuals might find themselves worse off. I should think that might be the top issue for discussion in the next round of bargaining...... or sooner. Try to find a win-win scenario.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#33 Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:16 am

I made a basic statement that Mainline is the way to go for some people, because another poster says otherwise. And you jump all over me, espousing advantages of Rouge, telling me I'm out of touch, yet you acknowledge that were the day to come to make a choice the senior pilots are going to bump and flush back to mainline.

What does that say?

I acknowledged the advantages to some of Rouge. But black and white the contract and pay rates are superior at Mainline.

Anyway... choice is good, but a new hire shouldn't blaze in with the assumption that Rouge is clearly better than Mainline just because it has some good routes right now. It's more complex than that.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#34 Post by AOW » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:21 am

I think the statement was more based on being junior at Rouge means much better QOL than being junior at mainline. I don't think anybody can argue that work rules are better, but the bidding and reserve rules are, especially if you are at the bottom of the list.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#35 Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:02 pm

I know what you're saying AOW, but I don't think it's necessarily the case always.

#3700ish, just hired, is going to be 20% on the Mainline 737 in YYZ. Probably won't stand much reserve and will enjoy a pretty good spot schedule wise and for the vacation bid while not being forced to CARS duty times or unpaid DHs.

The bottom +/- 75% of all the Mainline NB FO spots are largely vacant. Joining into the top third for anyone today will be pretty decent when we see that fill in with the 800 they are going to hire over the next year.

Meanwhile joining at the bottom of the LCC with seniority vacation bidding after this year, shorter regional routes coming with no DPG, the corp just hitting their stride on getting everyone working 16 days for their 77.5.

Rudder has it right, we are way better off all together... here's hoping someday everyone figures it out. The price paid on schedule for being junior today is minimal and short lived - between growth and retirement everyone joining now will have 1000 guys below them before they know it...
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#36 Post by AOW » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:56 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:02 pm
I know what you're saying AOW, but I don't think it's necessarily the case always.

#3700ish, just hired, is going to be 20% on the Mainline 737 in YYZ. Probably won't stand much reserve and will enjoy a pretty good spot schedule wise and for the vacation bid while not being forced to CARS duty times or unpaid DHs.

The bottom +/- 75% of all the Mainline NB FO spots are largely vacant. Joining into the top third for anyone today will be pretty decent when we see that fill in with the 800 they are going to hire over the next year.

Meanwhile joining at the bottom of the LCC with seniority vacation bidding after this year, shorter regional routes coming with no DPG, the corp just hitting their stride on getting everyone working 16 days for their 77.5.

Rudder has it right, we are way better off all together... here's hoping someday everyone figures it out. The price paid on schedule for being junior today is minimal and short lived - between growth and retirement everyone joining now will have 1000 guys below them before they know it...
That is all good to know. As i mentioned in another thread, I am not even on the property yet, but in a couple of months I am probably going to have some options, and I am trying to figure out what the best choice for my situation is going to be. I was just parroting what others have said here, but a lot of that has made sense.
Of course this all may be a moot point, and I may end up as an RP. Who knows even what the choices will be. I know whatever I get, it’s going to be a good job; each position has its pros and cons...
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#37 Post by rudder » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:17 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:02 pm
I know what you're saying AOW, but I don't think it's necessarily the case always.

#3700ish, just hired, is going to be 20% on the Mainline 737 in YYZ. Probably won't stand much reserve and will enjoy a pretty good spot schedule wise and for the vacation bid while not being forced to CARS duty times or unpaid DHs.

The bottom +/- 75% of all the Mainline NB FO spots are largely vacant. Joining into the top third for anyone today will be pretty decent when we see that fill in with the 800 they are going to hire over the next year.

Meanwhile joining at the bottom of the LCC with seniority vacation bidding after this year, shorter regional routes coming with no DPG, the corp just hitting their stride on getting everyone working 16 days for their 77.5.

Rudder has it right, we are way better off all together... here's hoping someday everyone figures it out. The price paid on schedule for being junior today is minimal and short lived - between growth and retirement everyone joining now will have 1000 guys below them before they know it...
Don’t forget the impact of the revised FT/DT rules which will take effect in 2019. There are many current single day turns that will no longer be legal. Pilot schedules at Rouge, Sunwing, and Transat will look quite different next year. With no credit at a Rouge for non-duty day away from base the Rouge pilots will see more 16 day schedules.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#38 Post by Lemon » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:19 am

Have there been any rouge positions in the last few classes or are people sliding over at a later date? Also, if 767 mainline FO is a new hire position (which I heard it has been recently) would it be worth while to bid that and slide over to rouge on the 67? I guess what I’m asking is which airplane at rouge has the best flying and lifestyle for a junior guy?

Thanks.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#39 Post by Dark Helmet » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:21 pm

There is no question that contractually wise the WORK and SCHEDULING rules and PAY is better at the Mainline. However it is not about Rouge being better than Mainline or vice-versa, its about getting into a seat that will give you the best of these 2 FACTORS as a new hire...

Lets look at the 2 factors in closer detail

-Pay
-Scheduling rules and quality of life (QOL)

Pay is moot for new hires. For the first 4 years the pay is the same regardless of what equipment (Rouge or Mainline) one flies.

That leaves to the next item, Schedule and QOL. Pretty much all the grounds schools the new hires have been selecting their positions in the following order of preference:

1.RP
2.Rouge
3. Mainline FO

RP will offer the best bang for the buck. Mainline work rules + productive overseas pairings offering the best overall schedule.

Next is Rouge. Even though the work rules are not as robust compared to mainline, the new hires schedules are much better at Rouge because:

A. Socialized bidding giving a new hire better control of the of his/her schedule specially if your are junior.
B. No reserve.
C. More productive pairings (for now) resulting in better blocks.
D. more opportunity of OT at Rouge (remember no reserve) which may result in more $$$.

Finally Mainline FO, these have been the least desirable positions. These usually go junior in ground-schools and many pilots who end up on these usually bid off towards a Rouge or RP positions. Reasons being

A. Unproductive flying leading to more days at work (16 for NB, up to 20 on WB). Even pilots a 50% end up with this.
B. Possibility of being on reserve or having a junior block = no control over your schedule.
C. Poor overall bidding system (PBS) with optimizer that may goof up one's block.

Ironically most of these have been attributed to Rouge and fleet renewals...


Many pilots (Rouge and Mainline) have taken the upgrade option to get our of the 4 year flat pay.

Whether you like it or not, this is the way things are structured. At the end of the day, pilots will make decisions based on what is best for them. Everyone is different.

There is a multitude of improvements that can be done that would benefit all AC pilots as well. Until that happens, this is what you have to work with.

Good news is, there is a lot of movement and a lot of vacancies across the board. There is no lack of choice.
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#40 Post by Dark Helmet » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:53 pm

As for the OP Original question, A320 vs EMJ

That depends, the good news is you will have access to aeronet a good month before your course starts. Meaning you will have access to all the schedules, equipment bids, training reports, bid packages, etc

Do a little homework and have a look at all those things. Kinda of flying, schedule, routes and destinations, movement, available courses. Talk to people you know who flies either equipment. Ask the if they can show you the sim, or IPT and show you the ropes (may help you with your trg...).

Them bid for what appeals you the most.

Good luck
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#41 Post by flymore » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:12 am

Thanks for the excellent feedback everyone! Dark Helmet, you did a superb job of consolidating all the different factors in choosing equipment and mainline/Rouge, if we are given a choice!

From a long term perspective. I feel narrowbody FO would give the best learning experience as opposed to RP. If you did want to upgrade in a couple of years, it’s much easier to go to the left seat if you were an FO, specially on the same type.

Yes, you’ll have to work a little harder than an RP though, if days off are important to you.

I decided with the 320 mainline vs EMJ because I’d rather stay and possible upgrade on the same plane, than be force reduced from the EMJ in a year or two. 320 also gives the option of Rouge if I choose to switch in the future. Mainline destinations on 320 also seem better than EMJ.

In the end, they are all excellent gigs and I think many would love to have been in this position at AC. Starting in their 20s and 30s with unprecedented growth ahead. There’s plenty of opportunity to move to something else throughout your career, once you get an idea of what you like. Enjoy the ride everyone!
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Re: Narrowbody Preference: EMJ vs A320

#42 Post by Victory » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:38 pm

What entry level position would be least days worked per month after RP?
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