Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako

Blue Side Up
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:00 pm

Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Blue Side Up »

Hey everyone,

Thought I'd throw this question out as it's somethng I've been pondering lately... What are your thoughts on ACPA joining ALPA?

I have experince with ALPA from my time at Jazz and for the most part I'm satisfied with ALPA's representation. There are some things that I didn't like about ALPA. For example, how little time they gave Jazz pilots to sign the 10 year contract back in 2015. Or how the B scale was introduced to Jazz and brought the regional bar even lower in Canada. I do think ACPA has good intentions...but the fact that we're 3800+ pilots compared to 50,000+ pilots at ALPA can make a big difference in bargaining power.

During a time when pilots in the US are getting 30+% pay increases without a fight.. I think we could be doing more at AC to raise the mainline bar even higher. Can ALPA do this more effectively than ACPA? Curious to read everyones thoughts.

Cheers
---------- ADS -----------
  

CanadianEh
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:00 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by CanadianEh »

It's a good idea! ... so it'll never happen
---------- ADS -----------
  

Air.Field
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 am

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Air.Field »

Unions are only as good as the reps. If AC went ALPA and the current ACPA reps/MEC also hold same positions then little will change.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Black_Tusk »

I dont know if this is true or not, but I heard that there were concerns from some widebody pilots regarding the support they have when flying overseas, especially with the routes continuing to grow. ACPA is a very small in house union so if they ever needed support overseas it could take some time, ALPA seems to have a farther reach and more support all over the world.

Thoughts?
---------- ADS -----------
  

teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2407
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by teacher »

The more pilots in Canada that are represented by the same union the better.
---------- ADS -----------
  
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/

EmbraerXXX
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by EmbraerXXX »

Do it...
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
'97 Tercel
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by '97 Tercel »

teacher wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:19 pm
The more pilots in Canada that are represented by the same union the better.

That's pretty much what it boils down to
---------- ADS -----------
  

rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2152
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder »

Perhaps the AC pilots should join ALPA. Or perhaps the AC pilots should remain represented by ACPA. The AC pilots certainly have the absolute right to self determination when it comes to representation.

But regardless of the path chosen, shouldn’t the AC pilots be having this discussion amongst each other weighing the perceived benefits or drawbacks of status quo vs change and then validating the will of the majority by conducting an internal ballot?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Victory »

Seriously. A quick look at the ALPA website lists the following Canadian members:

Air Georgian
First Air
Air Transat
Jazz
Bearskin
Kelowna Flighcraft
Calm Air
Canadian North
Encore
Wasaya
WestJet

Not exactly all places where things are going great for the pilot group or the company. I think ALPA needs to show some results in this country before anyone at Air Canada would consider them.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4116
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

I think there are more similarities between US mainline carriers and AC than between AC and anyone on that list.

This results are convincing.

Cutting out the drag on our careers that is ACPA is the best thing we could do...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Duke Point
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:42 am

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Duke Point »

ACPA has governed during a period of the most precipitous drop in wages and working conditions for Air Canada pilots in the entire history of the organization.

They failed time and time again to negotiate "snap back" clauses to regain "gives" during times of prosperity.

The Contract was completely gutted during the FOS goat-and-pony show....a situation that wouldn't likely have happened under the guidance of a proper "non-colluding" Union like ALPA.

ACPA should have been dead years ago....... right after they failed to protect WACON with a snap-back clause after R. Milton strip-mined the company and made off with $86,000,000 personally.......and his ACE shareholders $1,500,000,000

We've been playing the part of a "battered wife" ever since. Unfortunately most of those individuals "guiding the ship" when those staggering loses occurred are still at it. The time for the pilot group to "wake up" was the summer of 2005......13 years ago.

DP.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
NewCommercialPilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:22 am

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

rudder wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:00 pm
Perhaps the AC pilots should join ALPA. Or perhaps the AC pilots should remain represented by ACPA. The AC pilots certainly have the absolute right to self determination when it comes to representation.

But regardless of the path chosen, shouldn’t the AC pilots be having this discussion amongst each other weighing the perceived benefits or drawbacks of status quo vs change and then validating the will of the majority by conducting an internal ballot?
Well that's interesting Rudder. I seem to you opining on whether or not WJ pilots should certify with ALPA, and you don't, and have never worked for WJ. Why the change of opinion?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
NewCommercialPilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:22 am

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:52 am
rudder wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:00 pm
Perhaps the AC pilots should join ALPA. Or perhaps the AC pilots should remain represented by ACPA. The AC pilots certainly have the absolute right to self determination when it comes to representation.

But regardless of the path chosen, shouldn’t the AC pilots be having this discussion amongst each other weighing the perceived benefits or drawbacks of status quo vs change and then validating the will of the majority by conducting an internal ballot?
Well that's interesting rudder. I seem to you opining on whether or not WJ pilots should certify with ALPA, and you don't, and have never worked for WJ. Why the change of opinion?
---------- ADS -----------
  

rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2152
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder »

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:52 am

Well that's interesting Rudder. I seem to you opining on whether or not WJ pilots should certify with ALPA, and you don't, and have never worked for WJ. Why the change of opinion?
Not a change of opinion. They are different circumstances.

The AC pilots are already unionized. Their only choice is whether to remain ACPA represented or to consider an alternative. The WJ pilots were making a decision about unionizing or remaining within a non-certified Association. In both cases I favour the pilot groups seeking representation from a certified pilot union. UNIFOR is another option but I still believe the best overall professional pilot representation platform is currently offered by ALPA.

I also believe that the professional pilot community in Canada will benefit by as many pilots as possible being under one tent. I do not see ACPA offering representation to non-AC pilots so that leaves limited options. It could be ALPA, or perhaps an evolved more autonomous organization with ties to ALPA (perhaps call it ALPA CANADA).

I think that the WJ pilots are better off as ALPA members. I also believe that ALPA is better off with the WJ and WJ Encore pilots in the fold. I similarly believe that the same would be true for the AC pilots (and the Sunwing pilots, Cargojet pilots, Morningstar pilots, and all of the UNIFOR represented pilot groups in Canada). But I believe and support that there must be an informed internal debate and that ultimately the will of the majority should be respected on each property.

ALPA has had its problems over the years since the CALPA/ALPA merger where less enlightened ALPA leadership was averse to expanding membership in Canada. Thankfully, those leaders have been replaced. ALPA is now accepting all professional pilot groups that want representation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1020
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:00 pm

But regardless of the path chosen, shouldn’t the AC pilots be having this discussion amongst each other weighing the perceived benefits or drawbacks of status quo vs change and then validating the will of the majority by conducting an internal ballot?
Looks like that process has just started. I did the survey yesterday.
---------- ADS -----------
  

bcflyer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1187
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:35 am
Location: Canada

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by bcflyer »

Fanblade wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:33 pm
rudder wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:00 pm

But regardless of the path chosen, shouldn’t the AC pilots be having this discussion amongst each other weighing the perceived benefits or drawbacks of status quo vs change and then validating the will of the majority by conducting an internal ballot?
Looks like that process has just started. I did the survey yesterday.
The survey is a joke. Obviously biased towards getting the answers the MEC wants to hear. Similar to every ACPA survey I’ve ever done. They’ll post the results and say that it’s obvious the membership is happy. How about a simple one line question? Do you want ACPA or ALPA?

I’ve been under the ALPA banner before and would go back in a heartbeat.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 695
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by TheStig »

bcflyer wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:12 pm

The survey is a joke. Obviously biased towards getting the answers the MEC wants to hear. Similar to every ACPA survey I’ve ever done. They’ll post the results and say that it’s obvious the membership is happy. How about a simple one line question? Do you want ACPA or ALPA?

I’ve been under the ALPA banner before and would go back in a heartbeat.
The current (out going) MEC chair is a dyed in the wool ACPA founding father, and there is no shortage of his kin woven throughout the association. We're more likely to see Russia under new representation than Air Canada pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Ah_yeah
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ah_yeah »

Agree with that sentiment Stig. I think the membership is just getting duped by all this navel gazing. The rot isn't going to give in easy. The sooner we shutter ACPA, the better. The union has been a disaster since TA1 was hatched.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Air.Field
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 am

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Air.Field »

If ACPA is playing these mind games then they could be charged with failure to represent if the intent of the majority is to join ALPA.
http://www.cirb-ccri.gc.ca/eic/site/047 ... 00109.html
---------- ADS -----------
  

rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2152
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder »

You only need one question on the survey:

“DO YOU SUPPORT ACPA ENTERING IN TO EXPLORATORY DISCUSSIONS WITH ALPA TO EXAMINE THE POTENTIAL BENEFITS OR DRAWBACKS FOR THE AIR CANADA PILOTS OF MERGING ACPA WITH ALPA?”

YES

NO
---------- ADS -----------
  

Blue Side Up
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:00 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Blue Side Up »

I completely agree with you guys. I think the sooner the pilots in Canada are unionized under the same name the better off we'll be. Maybe we'll start putting pressure on our employers to start paying us like the US!

The survey ACPA sent out was very vague and waaaay to wordy.. they could've made it a 10 question survey and got the same results.

Time to hurry up and wait to see what happens.
---------- ADS -----------
  

teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2407
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by teacher »

rudder wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:25 am
You only need one question on the survey:

“DO YOU SUPPORT ACPA ENTERING IN TO EXPLORATORY DISCUSSIONS WITH ALPA TO EXAMINE THE POTENTIAL BENEFITS OR DRAWBACKS FOR THE AIR CANADA PILOTS OF MERGING ACPA WITH ALPA?”

YES

NO
AGREED, all other questions are not truly relevant.
---------- ADS -----------
  
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4116
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

MEC newsletter from yesterday urges everyone to speak up to the vaguely worded survey... I think it's because they peaked at the responses to date and don't like what has come in thus far...

It was the same with the recent contract...

Upped the sell job when the Yes vote wasn't looking certain...

I can't remember, but something like 20% of the vote was in the last 24 hours.
---------- ADS -----------
  

aerodude
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:16 am

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by aerodude »

Think about it for a second....
What have you have to lose? Possibly the worst contract for a north american legacy airline.
Also, did they not just allow the expansion of a b-scale ops in one of the airlines most profitable era!?!?
I remember on a webinar where one of the chief acpa negociator refused to call rouge a b-scale operation, incredible...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Redwine
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:20 pm
Location: FLINE@9

Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Redwine »

I think that would be a fantastic idea!
---------- ADS -----------
  
...Seems they are going to remove the axe and the control column from the cockpits for security reasons.

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”