Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:41 pm

Ratherbe wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:00 pm
Yes i see they wasted their money and didn't get anything for it - just a ruling confirming they were screwed by the government.

Our scope agreement in 2000 was industry leading so was the one in the TA but it was gutted because we ended up in arbitration.

The Pension RCAs in 2000 were a big win not a joke. How many ALPA pilots in the US were able to keep their DBs in place?

Your sad story is starting to sound a little old.

....floating down the Bow River.
CUPW had a ratified agreement they didn't make it to FOS like us, but the ruling was retroactive. Were it us FOS would have been GONE. You wonder why KV and AD rushed to push through another in 2014.

"In the last millennium, 20 years ago, we were industry leading..." and now that's all gone... and you say my story sounds old?

Your attitude and those like yours is our problem.
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:18 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:47 am

We have lawyers that are sitting on their tenure in ACPA and were happy to settle for costs... ie. pay themselves. If those guys weren't working for us they'd be in practice with Lionel Hutz...

You have a concessionary attitude that you don't think we deserve to make gains.

"great scope clause"
We have a B scale airline that is doing a growing proportion of our best flying.

"protected our pension"
Are you joking?

"Ratherbe"... at the cottage? Maybe that's why you are missing the spiral dive we have been falling to pull out of.
I notice that when you start losing an argument you retreat to insults...very clever.

It would be naive beyond words not to heed the advise of our lawyers and instead put trust in rhetoric like yours.

I believe that we do deserve to make gains. However we need to have a good strategy not just thrust with no vector.

For pilots rouge is not B-scale as many of the pilots are the highest paid in the entire airline - gross pay and total hourly rate too (see the discussion on the ac forum). It’s a fact that many are getting paid more than B777 captains. But the main advantage to us are the jobs that rouge protects and the fact that many of the routes are brought into mainline if successful. KIX, HNL, OGG, KOA, FCO, DUB, ALG, for example and there are likely some I have missed.

RCA’s were a big deal back in 2000 (a third of my pension will come from AC general revenue) and with all the concessions during FOS our DB’s are more secure than they’ve been for a long time.

Not a Blue Rodeo fan I guess? Let me guess The Cure? jk
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:55 pm

Ratherbe wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:18 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:47 am
"You doubt very much", and that's the problem. Where are your legal opinions coming from? Why don't you think we would succeed.?

We have lawyers that are sitting on their tenure in ACPA and were happy to settle for costs... ie. pay themselves. If those guys weren't working for us they'd be in practice with Lionel Hutz...

You have a concessionary attitude that you don't think we deserve to make gains.

"Steady gains in '96"
What have you done for me LATELY. 20+ years ago? FCS be a break


"great scope clause"
We operate more CPA flying/departures than any other network airline in North America. We have a B scale airline that is doing a growing proportion of our best flying. It's being chipped away at every time ACPA goes to the table... and even in between formal negotiations with unilaterally agreed MOAs between our Greivance/MEC chairs and the company and without membership input.

"protected our pension"
Are you joking?

"Ratherbe"... at the cottage? Maybe that's why you are missing the spiral dive we have been falling to pull out of.

I agree negotiated settlements are best, but not at any price, certainly not at the price of the continued decline.
I notice that when you start losing an argument you retreat to insults...very clever.

It would be naive beyond words not to heed the advise of our lawyers and instead put trust in rhetoric like yours.

I believe that we do deserve to make gains. However we need to have a good strategy not just thrust with no vector.

For pilots rouge is not B-scale as many of the pilots are the highest paid in the entire airline - gross pay and total hourly rate too (see the discussion on the ac forum). It’s a fact that many are getting paid more than B777 captains. But the main advantage to us are the jobs that rouge protects and the fact that many of the routes are brought into mainline if successful. KIX, HNL, OGG, KOA, FCO, DUB, ALG, for example and there are likely some I have missed.

RCA’s were a big deal back in 2000 (a third of my pension will come from AC general revenue) and with all the concessions during FOS our DB’s are more secure than they’ve been for a long time.

Not a Blue Rodeo fan I guess? Let me guess The Cure? jk
Retreat to insults? Where? Because I likened our LRD to Lionel Hutz? Not far off as far as I can tell, but c'mon get over it.

Losing an argument? Hardly. You have provided nothing substantive in this exchange. Nothing.

You are clinging to ideas of gains that were made 20 years ago and are now gone. You are dismissing FACTS which I have provided, and legal precedent for how we would have been successful as rhetoric, while offering no counter argument except "trust the lawyers" who I submit have provided sub-par performance of their duties and is evidenced by how far back we have gone.

And you're editing/redacting and cherry picking my statements for your quotes... I have fixed it for you.

And why don't you answer my question:
"You doubt very much", and that's the problem. Where are your legal opinions coming from? Why don't you think we would succeed.?

You say that you think we deserve gains, so where are they? All I am seeing is concessionary contracts, one after another and concessions thrown in-between with MOAs for good measure. Where are the gains? Seriously? Everything is "quid pro quo" - it seems when KV learned that expression it became a favourite of his - and most of what we get disappears as fleets change, wording turns out weak, or the corporation argues the intention. Meanwhile what we give balloons into something we never could have imagined...

Now you introduce the outliers for "highest paid pilots are at rouge" "many are earning more than 777 Captains" - Yes, there are a few high earners at the LCC, but it is not "many" as you submit. They are outliers and in statistics get excluded from a data pool. Higher average earnings and higher earners are at Mainline.

You bring in: "the jobs that rouge protects" - our scope is what protects our jobs. 320 and 767 flying belongs to us. Full stop.
It didn't require dividing the membership and creating a 2-tier wawcon to increase seat density, hire new FAs, and paint the planes red.
Ratherbe wrote:RCA’s were a big deal back in 2000 (a third of my pension will come from AC general revenue) and with all the concessions during FOS our DB’s are more secure than they’ve been for a long time.
Here we get to it. YOUR DB.

1/3 of our membership is now without that secure DB that you are willing to do anything to protect. I don't think you care enough for the state you leave the contract for the people behind you. How many years do you have left? Better take the money and run soon because that secure DB is going to wither. I wished we got a better TBP because I'm pretty sure those of us left on DB in 10 or more years time will have to abandon it as it falls out of priority to improve or protect as the membership shifts to a TBP majority.

I'll say it again: I agree negotiated settlements are best, but not at any price, certainly not at the price of the continued decline.

For the record I have liked a lot of music over the years, Blue Rodeo and the Cure are both among them.
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Last edited by altiplano on Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

atphat
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by atphat » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:44 pm

If ALPA ideologies reflect Mr. Adamus and his disgraceful brown nosing of our pathetic transport minister, I’ll stick with ACPA thank you very much.

At least ACPA came out strongly against the science ignoring changes announced today.

F ALPA.

What a joke.
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fish4life
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by fish4life » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:20 pm

atphat wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:44 pm
If ALPA ideologies reflect Mr. Adamus and his disgraceful brown nosing of our pathetic transport minister, I’ll stick with ACPA thank you very much.

At least ACPA came out strongly against the science ignoring changes announced today.

F ALPA.

What a joke.
Honestly what kind of regulations were you hoping for?
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:19 am

Adamus lost the election in October, and has 2 weeks left as ALPA-C President. He's playing his own political game no doubt.

Besides, ALPA-C will be changed if ACPA goes that direction. No longer will the ALPA-C Board be making decisions or have authority. Group C will elect an EVP, AC will elect it's own EVP, and all Canadian airlines will elect a non-voting ALPA-C Board.
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rudder
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:18 am

Quick question - how many political/legal/industrial/legislative battles has ACPA won over the past 20 years against the Federal government and its agencies?

Easy to cast stones. Much harder to play the game.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 am

atphat wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:44 pm
If ALPA ideologies reflect Mr. Adamus and his disgraceful brown nosing of our pathetic transport minister, I’ll stick with ACPA thank you very much.

At least ACPA came out strongly against the science ignoring changes announced today.

F ALPA.

What a joke.

Well if ACPA thinks they can come in to ALPA meetings after being invited to observe and meddle in our elections and politics maybe the rest of ALPA doesn't want YOU in our union. Did you think of that?

ALPA National including Dan Adamus and Brian Shury wanted to push for more changes that we ended up getting but with the uncertainty of Tim Perry taking over as the President of the Canada Board, the connections that have been made by Dan and Brian over the last many years are all lost. Sure Brian will still be involved, whatever that is worth we'll have to see. I hope the new kid on the block Tim is smart enough to take advice from a "lowly regional pilot." I've heard he's a good guy, so I have high hopes.

Wasn't it ACPA that said they wouldn't join ALPA if a Jazz pilot was at the helm? Yeah, thought so. Lets see who has brought ALPA to where it is over the last decade? Jazz pilots, that's right.

Add a possible Federal Election in the mix and I'll take what we can get, NOW. If this wasn't approved we'd likely be waiting another 5 years before anything happens.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:44 am

rudder wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:18 am
Quick question - how many political/legal/industrial/legislative battles has ACPA won over the past 20 years against the Federal government and its agencies?

Easy to cast stones. Much harder to play the game.
None because ACPA likes to play by themselves, and don't care about the rest of the industry in Canada. Ironic that now after such a long time they are crawling back to ALPA.
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atphat
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by atphat » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:28 am

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 am
atphat wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:44 pm
If ALPA ideologies reflect Mr. Adamus and his disgraceful brown nosing of our pathetic transport minister, I’ll stick with ACPA thank you very much.

At least ACPA came out strongly against the science ignoring changes announced today.

F ALPA.

What a joke.

Well if ACPA thinks they can come in to ALPA meetings after being invited to observe and meddle in our elections and politics maybe the rest of ALPA doesn't want YOU in our union. Did you think of that?

ALPA National including Dan Adamus and Brian Shury wanted to push for more changes that we ended up getting but with the uncertainty of Tim Perry taking over as the President of the Canada Board, the connections that have been made by Dan and Brian over the last many years are all lost. Sure Brian will still be involved, whatever that is worth we'll have to see. I hope the new kid on the block Tim is smart enough to take advice from a "lowly regional pilot." I've heard he's a good guy, so I have high hopes.

Wasn't it ACPA that said they wouldn't join ALPA if a Jazz pilot was at the helm? Yeah, thought so. Lets see who has brought ALPA to where it is over the last decade? Jazz pilots, that's right.

Add a possible Federal Election in the mix and I'll take what we can get, NOW. If this wasn't approved we'd likely be waiting another 5 years before anything happens.
Yes. Makes total sense a Jazz Q400 pilot would be the frontman on overseas, ULH type flying.

Wait he was. Look where we are now. Great idea.

He sold out hard. There is no defending it.
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hithere
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by hithere » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:01 am

Adamus is the current President of Alpa’s Canada Board. As such he represents the interests of the 5500 pilots across the 12 Alpa airlines in Canada. Some of these airlines fly smaller aircraft than Jazz and some fly larger. Some have unique challenges flying in remote northern operations. Acpa and Alpa collaborated in trying to get the government to address all the shortcomings of the previous FTDT regs, and this was as far as the government was willing to go at this time. It’s a starting point for future discussions.
If Acpa was so concerned about the Canada Board President’s resume, maybe they should have joined Alpa years ago or never decertified in the beginning.
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Lightchop
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:18 pm

atphat wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:28 am
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 am
atphat wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:44 pm
If ALPA ideologies reflect Mr. Adamus and his disgraceful brown nosing of our pathetic transport minister, I’ll stick with ACPA thank you very much.

At least ACPA came out strongly against the science ignoring changes announced today.

F ALPA.

What a joke.

Well if ACPA thinks they can come in to ALPA meetings after being invited to observe and meddle in our elections and politics maybe the rest of ALPA doesn't want YOU in our union. Did you think of that?

ALPA National including Dan Adamus and Brian Shury wanted to push for more changes that we ended up getting but with the uncertainty of Tim Perry taking over as the President of the Canada Board, the connections that have been made by Dan and Brian over the last many years are all lost. Sure Brian will still be involved, whatever that is worth we'll have to see. I hope the new kid on the block Tim is smart enough to take advice from a "lowly regional pilot." I've heard he's a good guy, so I have high hopes.

Wasn't it ACPA that said they wouldn't join ALPA if a Jazz pilot was at the helm? Yeah, thought so. Lets see who has brought ALPA to where it is over the last decade? Jazz pilots, that's right.

Add a possible Federal Election in the mix and I'll take what we can get, NOW. If this wasn't approved we'd likely be waiting another 5 years before anything happens.
Yes. Makes total sense a Jazz Q400 pilot would be the frontman on overseas, ULH type flying.

Wait he was. Look where we are now. Great idea.

He sold out hard. There is no defending it.
Maybe if Air Canada pilots tried joining the greater voice of pilots in Canada over the last decade vs. doing everything they can to only look out for themselves, they might have had a bit more pull/say in what ALPA was pursuing. Until that happens I'm sure you could always sell off more scope or lower new hire pay more to get some better scheduling rules for the top 1000 pilots at AC.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:22 pm

I find it ironic and hypocritical that ACPA is so vocal against these new rules when they were the ones who allowed Rouge and their work rules to happen. ATH anyone?

:roll:
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Alcoholism » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:53 pm

The dingle berries don't even realize progress is made in steps. Is the new rules perfect? No. It was never going to be. Not at first. If ACPA had their way they would sacrifice the 703 & 704 sectors for their gain. Perhaps it's best ACPA doesn't join ALPA, ALPA will be better off, as we all know when ACPA doesn't get their way they cry in the in their corner of the sandbox and go home. Gotta give some recognition to them though, on tarnishing the rest of AC pilot group, that is if that's their goal. :smt038
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by RVR6000 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:42 am

Lightchop wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:22 pm
I find it ironic and hypocritical that ACPA is so vocal against these new rules when they were the ones who allowed Rouge and their work rules to happen. ATH anyone?

:roll:

Ahhh the mis-informed, FOS allowed Rouge courtesy of the Harper government. ACPA has kept the lid on the 25 WB fin at Rouge, I don’t expect that to last. Probably be traded away for more pension improvements like the NB restriction was.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:10 pm

It would appear that the war of words in the public space on the revised FT/DT rules has at least temporarily dampened any momentum towards merger. Perhaps it has also highlighted that the AC pilots seem to prefer to maintain their own public voice as opposed to that of a broader professional association where consensus dictates position.

ACPA did not get a win for the AC pilots on FT/DT. The new rules are coming regardless of the opinion of either ACPA or ALPA. Could the profession have done better with just one voice for the profession? Who knows.

Commercial pilot representation in Canada is divided in to 3 different bargaining agents. It is no wonder that the bureaucrats and politicians need a score card to remember which pilot union they just spoke to.

Just remember that divide and conquer is a strategy used by our adversaries. We should be moving in the opposite direction.
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