Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

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confusedalot
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by confusedalot »

Hate to burst the bubble but I can see that no one knows why there is an ACPA in the first place, perhaps because posters were not in the business at that time.

Air Canada pilots were previously represented by a now defunct union that was CALPA, the Canadian Airline Pilots Association. CALPA represented many airlines of the day, including the now non existant Canadian Airlines, and, in the past, other Airlines that no longer exist or got bought out and merged. They were around for decades.

Air Ontario, and I think Air BC, maybe Air Nova but I am not sure, were also represented by CALPA. These companies are now collectively known as Jazz.

Then..........the fun started.............it was a dirty time..........

The air canada feeders made a push for common carrier status, and CALPA was one of the tools they were using. This is not a joke, they were looking for seniority by date of hire............so for example, a 25 year Air Ontario guy would get 25 years seniority at air canada, skipping over air canada pilots with less seniority.

Like I said before, it was a very dirty time. If you have an imagination, you can see how dirty it got. This stuff was hapenning in the early 90's.

So........the air canada pilots left CALPA and formed ALPA.

That may perhaps indicate why ACPA is not in any hurry to join ALPA, doubt very much that they are interested in watching the movie again.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by yycflyguy »

All of that has been settled in the courts. The Air Ontario lawsuit was dismissed.

Since the dissolution of CALPA, ACPA was a needed change back then. Over time, it has become ineffective (corrupt?) and directionally lost. A common pilot union with common representation is needed again. It's no difference than a government that has been in power for too long. It is time for a change.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by infiniteregulus »

Sounds like WestJet is becoming the new Canadian Airlines, so it could be extrapolated that eventually WestJet and AC could merge in the future, thus if both were to be with ALPA, the same scenario would play out.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

Part of the issue with CALPA, IIRC, was the governance structure. While AC pilots paid the lions share of dues, the governance structure allowed the feeders and small airlines to control the association.

So when Air Ontario and the regionals decided to get date of hire seniority and use the AC pilots' own money and resources against them to achieve that, they walked.

ALPA board, on the other hand, is structured differently.

Every airline with over 4000 members or $10million in dues gets to appoint an EVP to a seat at the table. United, Delta, Fedex...

The smaller/regional airlines are grouped into tiers and select one EVP per tier. The Canadian carriers are grouped and select one EVP...

Air Canada would be very close to that top tier, just shy of 4000, and I'm not sure of dues, but it would be close...

If it is slightly short, perhaps ALPA may be willing to make an exception/amendment to their constitution. I suspect they would have to, as I'm certain many/most AC pilots won't go unless they get a seat in the deal... given the history of feeders wagging the dog and the fact that we are certainly more similar to United than Bearskin or even Jazz as far as structure, equipment, operations, issues, scope, etc...

Hopefully they work it out, I'm ready for ACPA to be put to pasture.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by mbav8r »

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:40 am
Part of the issue with CALPA, IIRC, was the governance structure. While AC pilots paid the lions share of dues, the governance structure allowed the feeders and small airlines to control the association.

So when Air Ontario and the regionals decided to get date of hire seniority and use the AC pilots' own money and resources against them to achieve that, they walked.

ALPA board, on the other hand, is structured differently.

Every airline with over 4000 members or $10million in dues gets to appoint an EVP to a seat at the table. United, Delta, Fedex...

The smaller/regional airlines are grouped into tiers and select one EVP per tier. The Canadian carriers are grouped and select one EVP...

Air Canada would be very close to that top tier, just shy of 4000, and I'm not sure of dues, but it would be close...

If it is slightly short, perhaps ALPA may be willing to make an exception/amendment to their constitution. I suspect they would have to, as I'm certain many/most AC pilots won't go unless they get a seat in the deal... given the history of feeders wagging the dog and the fact that we are certainly more similar to United than Bearskin or even Jazz as far as structure, equipment, operations, issues, scope, etc...

Hopefully they work it out, I'm ready for ACPA to be put to pasture.
Um, pretty sure they walked because the binding arbitration that both sides AGREED to didn’t go their way, the lawsuit was based on that fact, despite not being successful the principal remains.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by citizenbanana »

Happening?
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Rowdy »

From the sounds of it, it looks like thats the direction it's going.

Now... just to have a clean sweep of the ACPA reps..
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by 3down&loct »

Good luck guys. I hope you guys join. Think it will be positive for the Canadian Airline Industry. Everyone on the same page.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by CanadianEh »

Looks like a done deal
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by DropTanks »

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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop »

Email/memo went out this morning more or less confirming it.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by yvrflyguy »

Sounds like they got everything they asked for. I assume they'll have to hold a vote for the pilots, but if we get everything we wanted, dont see much reason not to
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop »

What exactly did the pilot group want? To be part of ALPA but not "actually" part of ALPA? Everyone knows AC only cares about themselves, and not of the collective whole.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by sportingrifle »

Lightchop....that is a pretty interesting comment.

I worked at a connector airline many years ago and experienced ALPA leadership. Trying to be all things to all groups, while in fact letting down their most vulnerable members was sad to watch. Made me think that I wouldn't want to be part of a merger between two ALPA represented airlines. I had an unnerving feeling that my future would be decided in a back room in Hearndon Virginia by a "couple of good ol' boys over a bottle of scotch." ACPA isn't perfect, but at least it is only accountable to one pilot group and if we don't like the way it is being run, we can (and did) vote those in charge out and replace them.

I also just found out that ALPA Canada at the 11th hour decided to support the proposed flight duty time regulation amendments - the proposed regulations that ACPA has been trying to bring about much needed improvements to for many years. If a pilots union can't get that right, what's the point, pretty much everything else is more complex and difficult.

I think I'll vote to stay with ACPA, they haven't done everything perfectly but on balance have done a far better job and are far more accountable than ALPA to date. Just my $0.02.

sportingrifle
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop »

How about giving all that good cargo flying away for pennies and expanding Rouge more and more. Giving away quality mainline jobs in the process.

What are your thoughts on that? Because a few AC pilots I know aren't thrilled with the way ACPA has been acting the last few years.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by sportingrifle »

Lightchop...like I said, it is just my personal opinion but I am reasonably content...no it is not even near perfect but in my opinion, ACPA has provided better representation than I have seen from other pilot labor groups.

Re: Rouge, in my opinion, is it ideal - no. But it was coming anyway and ACPA negotiated something an awful lot better than like happened at Jetstar, Swoop, etc. And the creation of Rouge was conditional on the mainline airline growing. Everybody at Rouge bid their positions, some quite like it and have stayed. The rest can bid back to mainline.

sportingrifle
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

Growth?

Where is the mainline growth?

How many fins were at mainline in 2012?

205

How many fins are at mainline today?

184

And 19 more EMJs are going back from that next year.

175 mainline fins

But EMJs "don't count" remember!? Why the @#$! don't they count? Those are mainline jobs.

I can't believe some people think there is mainline growth. Or that rouge grows only if mainline grows.

They already added 6 more 32Xs to the LCC.

You guys got tricked if you believe those ratios and baselines. "Growth" was based on fewer aircraft than were already on the property. We are reducing aircraft at mainline and people believe it is growth because we are being told that by some at ACPA and the company.

I hope you will look a little closer sportingrifle.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

Yes but you’re obviously excluding rouge. However, a lot of pilots are there by choice and some of our highest paid pilots are working there.

So including rouge as of Dec 31st:

2006 - 199 fins
2011 - 205 fins
2017 - 224 fins

More importantly, pilot jobs based on crew manning (11-03 and 18-03):

2011 - 2,950
2018 - 4,003

So, based on these numbers maybe ACPA is not doing such a bad job on creating more jobs and ones with higher pay? I’m not saying criticism is not due but not in the area of job creation.

Will ALPA do a better job protecting our scope?
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by sportingrifle »

Ratherbe...

Exactly my point, thank you.
I was too lazy to dig up the numbers. And it is not only the quantity of jobs, but the quality of life associated with them.

Cheers sportingrifle
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

If course I'm excluding the LCC!

The deal sold to us last year wasn't growth. It was Mainline growth...

We "agreed" growth above 50 LCC fins in exchange for proportional Mainline growth, yet all we're seeing is LCC growth and Mainline reductions because it was a deception.

"Highest paid"

Because they work more? You're sounding like a Westjet pilot there... and the idea of some Rouge Captain making a pile is an outlier... it isn't the norm.

... and it's certainly not by the hour...

... and it's skewed because the LCC takes much of the most productive flying...

"Quality of life"

... you mean the socialized schedule?
... the CARs work rules?
... the 'expectation' to pick up extra flying?
... the 'expectation' to extend duty days?

Fig that.

I wish we had a deal so you could sign and stay at the LCC if you think it's better.

If you don't start sticking up for Mainline there will be not much left when you're ready to come back.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by atphat »

altiplano wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:58 pm
If course I'm excluding the LCC!

The deal sold to us last year wasn't growth. It was Mainline growth...

We "agreed" growth above 50 LCC fins in exchange for proportional Mainline growth, yet all we're seeing is LCC growth and Mainline reductions because it was a deception.

"Highest paid"

Because they work more? You're sounding like a Westjet pilot there... and the idea of some Rouge Captain making a pile is an outlier... it isn't the norm.

... and it's certainly not by the hour...

... and it's skewed because the LCC takes much of the most productive flying...

"Quality of life"

... you mean the socialized schedule?
... the CARs work rules?
... the 'expectation' to pick up extra flying?
... the 'expectation' to extend duty days?

Fig that.

I wish we had a deal so you could sign and stay at the LCC if you think it's better.

If you don't start sticking up for Mainline there will be not much left when you're ready to come back.
sigh.....

shades of 2012. Not a single pilot at Rouge is forced to be there. Not one.

The "flying" is the companies. Not any pilots. Not any fleet. Hating Rouge does nothing.

The growth ratios were indeed bullish#t. Blame ACPA. Not the company. Not Rouge.

Would you not agree that Rouge gave the company the ability to fight WJ? Sunwing? Trasnsat?

Should AC give up that market share and be less competitive so you can do productive turns? That's an honest question.

I remember years ago a guy couldn't stop talking about his "daddys" airline. My dad this....my dad that.... barf.

Things change. Grow....Adapt. A healthy competitive AC is good for every employee.

Your hate for Rouge is palpable and tired. Move on
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop »

shades of 2012. Not a single pilot at Rouge is forced to be there. Not one.
I don't believe that.

If everyone wanted out, there aren't enough "mainline" jobs.

What about a new hire who picked last and got the 319? Or do they not count because they should be "happy to even have a job at AC."
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by atphat »

Lightchop wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:31 pm
shades of 2012. Not a single pilot at Rouge is forced to be there. Not one.
I don't believe that.

If everyone wanted out, there aren't enough "mainline" jobs.

What about a new hire who picked last and got the 319? Or do they not count because they should be "happy to even have a job at AC."
Believe what you want. Look at the bids. It's self explanatory.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by fish4life »

sportingrifle wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:21 pm
Lightchop....that is a pretty interesting comment.

I worked at a connector airline many years ago and experienced ALPA leadership. Trying to be all things to all groups, while in fact letting down their most vulnerable members was sad to watch. Made me think that I wouldn't want to be part of a merger between two ALPA represented airlines. I had an unnerving feeling that my future would be decided in a back room in Hearndon Virginia by a "couple of good ol' boys over a bottle of scotch." ACPA isn't perfect, but at least it is only accountable to one pilot group and if we don't like the way it is being run, we can (and did) vote those in charge out and replace them.

I also just found out that ALPA Canada at the 11th hour decided to support the proposed flight duty time regulation amendments - the proposed regulations that ACPA has been trying to bring about much needed improvements to for many years. If a pilots union can't get that right, what's the point, pretty much everything else is more complex and difficult.

I think I'll vote to stay with ACPA, they haven't done everything perfectly but on balance have done a far better job and are far more accountable than ALPA to date. Just my $0.02.

sportingrifle
If 2 ALPA airlines merge ALPA actually steps away and let’s the 2 groups figure out how they want to do it. Canadian North and First Air as an example.

If ACPA cared about fatigue they’d change the slave labour Reserve system they have instead of just “let the new guys deal with it”
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

atphat wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:11 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:58 pm
If course I'm excluding the LCC!

The deal sold to us last year wasn't growth. It was Mainline growth...

We "agreed" growth above 50 LCC fins in exchange for proportional Mainline growth, yet all we're seeing is LCC growth and Mainline reductions because it was a deception.

"Highest paid"

Because they work more? You're sounding like a Westjet pilot there... and the idea of some Rouge Captain making a pile is an outlier... it isn't the norm.

... and it's certainly not by the hour...

... and it's skewed because the LCC takes much of the most productive flying...

"Quality of life"

... you mean the socialized schedule?
... the CARs work rules?
... the 'expectation' to pick up extra flying?
... the 'expectation' to extend duty days?

Fig that.

I wish we had a deal so you could sign and stay at the LCC if you think it's better.

If you don't start sticking up for Mainline there will be not much left when you're ready to come back.
sigh.....

shades of 2012. Not a single pilot at Rouge is forced to be there. Not one.

The "flying" is the companies. Not any pilots. Not any fleet. Hating Rouge does nothing.

The growth ratios were indeed bullish#t. Blame ACPA. Not the company. Not Rouge.

Would you not agree that Rouge gave the company the ability to fight WJ? Sunwing? Trasnsat?

Should AC give up that market share and be less competitive so you can do productive turns? That's an honest question.

I remember years ago a guy couldn't stop talking about his "daddys" airline. My dad this....my dad that.... barf.

Things change. Grow....Adapt. A healthy competitive AC is good for every employee.

Your hate for Rouge is palpable and tired. Move on
Nice strawman attempt.

Your lack of comprehension on what I'm saying is palpable. I'm not hating on Rouge, just stating the facts that surround it's existence. It's there, it was forced on us, so we need to manage it within our contract appropriately.

But we're not...

I'm tired of the way some things are being misrepresented, I'm speaking to the fallacies that are being perpetuated, and that some people seem to believe.

It was stated in this thread by Sportingrifle:
"Rouge growth is conditional to Mainline growth."

And that's indeed what we were sold/told... but of course it's demonstrably FALSE.

'Ratherbe' states regarding growth:
"But you're excluding Rouge"...

Of course I am... I was responding to Sport', and that's the point, Mainline growth in exchange for Rouge was what we were sold/told, but it hasn't happened... Mainline shrinks... Rouge grows... FACT.

AC Pilots need to know that, lots of guys think Mainline is growing! Yet we are a shadow of the pre:Rouge fleet plan at Mainline, let alone taking the confirmed orders into account that we had. That's a fact.

"The growth ratios were indeed bullish#t. Blame ACPA."

This thread IS ACPA vs. ALPA isn't it? I do blame them. Or more accurately the NC and MEC and CEO.

I'll take it one step further...
I blame those perpetuating the falsehoods and those who cannot criticallly analyze what we are being given, or read deeper into the issues and understanding what they are voting on.

Would you not agree that Rouge gave the company the ability to fight WJ? Sunwing? Trasnsat?

The B-scale pilot contact didn't do it... The seat density did.

Should AC give up that market share and be less competitive so you can do productive turns? That's an honest question.

False dilemma? These things don't correlate. Besides I don't bid big turns... more a keep it easy, multi-day kinda-guy and fly my block.

The "flying" is the companies. Not any pilots. Not any fleet. Hating Rouge does nothing.

Again your argument doesn't stand up and has no correlation. The flying is owned by AC Pilots under the provisions of our Scope. It has nothing to do with "hating Rouge" which as I said I do not. I only want the truth told when guys like you want to blow smoke.

I remember years ago a guy couldn't stop talking about his "daddys" airline. My dad this....my dad that.... barf.

Things change. Grow....Adapt. A healthy competitive AC is good for every employee.


I'd certainly take his Daddy's paycheque and industry leading contract... What do you have? Straight up lower pay rates than what we earned 15 years ago. Lost scope.
Lost pension. Worse work conditions. A contract that is so so so far below our Legacy peers.

Is that "growing and adapting"? Is that the "change" you want?

I agree a healthy competitive AC is good, but you don't have to keep caving in on Scope and diminishing Mainline to have it.

You don't have to keep spreading falsehoods and arguing fallacy after fallacy as you do.

LCC this, LCC that, growth, highest paid, better lifestyle... talk about BARF...

I want facts. You're offering none.
I want accurate representation. ACPA hasn't been providing that.

I want AC Pilots to end the apathy and trust and understand what is happening, to realize how our contract is being raped and start standing up for it.
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