Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:13 pm

A contract that is so so so far below our Legacy peers.
Please explain which peers those are??

(Don't use US legacy airlines, apples v oranges)
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by FL007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:18 pm

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:13 pm
A contract that is so so so far below our Legacy peers.
Please explain which peers those are??

(Don't use US legacy airlines, apples v oranges)
This is the only quote you can argue, because the simplest argument you can think of is there are no other legacy airlines in Canada.

There are no apples vs apples comparisons in Canadian aviation, the only comparable airline to AC is American legacy carriers. Scope of flying is comparable, fleet, experience levels, why can't they be compared?
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by RVR6000 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:44 pm

Let’s we forget....86% voted YES for this contract. Now everyone is crying about it, no one forced this on us.

Subsequently we approved the reopener with a 58% Yes vote. Don’t blame the union, the membership has to own-up.

It’s surprising what a 10k signing bonus can buy you.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:16 pm

RVR6000 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:44 pm
Let’s we forget....86% voted YES for this contract. Now everyone is crying about it, no one forced this on us.

Subsequently we approved the reopener with a 58% Yes vote. Don’t blame the union, the membership has to own-up.

It’s surprising what a 10k signing bonus can buy you.
As I said, I take the blame one step further... but I do blame the sales job on ACPA.

86% voted for a hard, non-arbitratable, LCC cap and 10K.

How's that hard cap on LCC growth doing now?

53% voted for linked growth but didn't read the fine print... not to mention it was for a pension that costs our members more and it seems now very few actually wanted...

Where's that linked growth now? LCC adds 6 fins and Mainline reduces fins.

"Do you think we can do better in 2016?"

"Do you think we can do better in arbitration?"

Scare tactics. How stupid are we?
Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:13 pm
A contract that is so so so far below our Legacy peers.
Please explain which peers those are??

(Don't use US legacy airlines, apples v oranges)
What should I use? Transat? Westjet? Sunwing? That's an apple to tennis shoe comparison.

At least apples and oranges both grow on trees, are found next to each other in the grocery store, and alternate days in my kids lunch.

Why wouldn't you use US carriers? Because Jalmer or KV told you not to? Our contract and pay to be roughly par with them. We even led them at times... what happened?

Only reason they don't want to look at those carriers is because it shows just how bad a job we've done.

We are the largest foreign carrier operating in the US, and are ahead of some reasonably large American carriers in presence in some of the largest American markets.

US aside Western nation network/alliance/legacy carriers are our comparators.

Pick another country of you want... Lufthansa, Air France, Cathay, BA... We lag.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by RVR6000 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:20 pm

Can we do better in 2016?

Better than 2%, where is the downside. Maybe they’ll only offer 1% :roll:

When they hired a PR firm for the sell job something didn’t seem right. We’re too predictable and guiable, Bens slide show stole the show, look where he is now.

If we stayed with FOS at least it had the 50 Fin LCC protection. Those 787 deliveries where coming anyways, and the options never got excerised.

I voted no for the 10 year deal and the reopener, but I’m tired of the all complainers. ALPA won’t undo this contract or get us a new contract till 2024, so no point paying higher dues till then.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:11 am

I read the proposed amendments to ALPA’s Constituition and it looks like ACPA will have a seat on the Board of Directors but no vote. Looks like they want us in but don’t want any meaningful input on how things are decided in HQ.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:44 am

Ratherbe wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:11 am
I read the proposed amendments to ALPA’s Constituition and it looks like ACPA will have a seat on the Board of Directors but no vote. Looks like they want us in but don’t want any meaningful input on how things are decided in HQ.
You read that wrong.

1. Immediate Group A carrier status for AC with an EVP on the ALPA executive council.

We get our own seat and vote at the big table. Just like Delta/United/Fedex.

I think this is what you are misinterpreting, and it's seperate from the above:

2. Roll call voting now on the Canada Board. No more one airline, one vote, and ALPA Canada Board officers won't register a vote.

That means on Canada Board issues the MEC for the various airlines vote their airline, and the number of members at the airline register the weight of their vote.

For example, using rough round numbers:
Say 10,000 Canadian pilots from 15 airlines. AC's MEC representing 4000 pilots register 40% of the vote, Westjet's 2000 pilots register 20%, Bearskin's 75 pilots register 0.75%... I understand that previously each airline had 1 vote, and the Board officers had 1 vote.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:29 am

Group A EVP status is based on dues revenue. Apparently Alaska and JetBlue pilots will be getting an EVP representative as well.

The existence of the Canada Board is unique and is a direct function of the 1997 CALPA/ALPA Merger. Changes have and continue to be made to the function and rules governing the Canada Board.

The 47th Bienniel ALPA BOD is underway and I presume that the ACPA/ALPA Merger is an agenda item.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:41 am

rudder wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:29 am
Group A EVP status is based on dues revenue. Apparently Alaska and JetBlue pilots will be getting an EVP representative as well.
Correct. Dues or membership.

$10,000,000 or 4000 members. The ALPA constitution is also being amended to reflect equivalence USD vs. CAD so exchange rate losses don't penalize Canadian airlines in this calculation if applicable.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:45 am

Thanks for the further clarification.

Regardless, I hope that the AC pilots seriously evaluate the benefits of ALPA membership. It isn’t about an EVP seat. It is about being part of the largest professional pilot organization in the world and working with your peers to advance the profession both locally and across the entire North American spectrum.

ALPA isn’t perfect. ACPA isn’t perfect. But look at the resources and access to peers that comes with being part of a 61,000 strong pilot organization with further substantial global ties. The AC pilots have a lot to offer and ALPA will also benefit from their inclusion under the ALPA banner.

Having both the WJ and AC pilots wearing ALPA lanyards and membership pins will send a strong message to other non-ALPA CDN airline pilots about the best vehicle for professional representation.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Skyhunter » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:56 am

So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:14 pm

Skyhunter wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:56 am
So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!
Under ALPA, it would be ALPA Merger Policy (most recent version).

It is available on line. No prescribed outcome. No prescribed formula. Simply factors to be considered without assignment of priority and not considered a limiting list of factors that may be submitted by either party. Arbitration panel is comprised of 3 arbitrators so no rogue outcome.

There are several results out there using the current policy. UAL/CAL. VX/AS.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by TFTMB heavy » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:48 pm

Skyhunter wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:56 am
So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!
Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by skypirate88 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:50 pm

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:48 pm
Skyhunter wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:56 am
So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!
Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.
That's quite the prediction, a while very off topic I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:05 pm

skypirate88 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:50 pm
TFTMB heavy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:48 pm
Skyhunter wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:56 am
So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!
Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.
That's quite the prediction, a while very off topic I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
I am curious as well.

With a market cap south of $300MM Transat AT is easily affordable for AC even with a 25% incentive premium tacked on to the latest stock price. Having said that, not sure either the AT shareholders or Board are willing sellers.

What is more relevant to AC is whether what it is they are buying will add assets, revenue, businesses, or market share that is worth the expenditure.

Also curious what the debt is on the Transat AT balance sheet (too lazy to go look).
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by aerodude » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:14 pm

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:48 pm

Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.
We pilots are just a small (very small) part of a large business, we are not as important as we think we are, in terms of costs.
Management's decision to merge or buy a business is not affected by what union the pilots have.


ACPA may have thought AC pilots make or break the company and made sure re openers were "cost neutral". It was then quite comical to see AC and other partners up the offer by 100 million when aeroplan initially refused the first offer to be brought out.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:47 pm

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:48 pm
Skyhunter wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:56 am
So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!
Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.
AC buying Jazz and Westjet. Confirmed.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by TFTMB heavy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:38 am

rudder wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:05 pm
skypirate88 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:50 pm
TFTMB heavy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:48 pm


Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.
That's quite the prediction, a while very off topic I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
I am curious as well.

With a market cap south of $300MM Transat AT is easily affordable for AC even with a 25% incentive premium tacked on to the latest stock price. Having said that, not sure either the AT shareholders or Board are willing sellers.

What is more relevant to AC is whether what it is they are buying will add assets, revenue, businesses, or market share that is worth the expenditure.

Also curious what the debt is on the Transat AT balance sheet (too lazy to go look).
For the reasons listed above and also because of the greatly reduced risk of a major labour dispute with the biggest unionized groups in the company being under the same umbrellas, FAs with CUPE and pilots with ALPA. I was told by a very reliable source that AC wanted a 10 year deal with it's pilots to show investors some labour relations stability. The dispute that resulted form the acquisition of Canadian is not one that should be repeated.

So for all of those reasons plus the distribution network Transat has built overseas I have made this prediction.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Rowdy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:00 am

You're more likely to see AC purchase all of its regionals, merge them, create tension and break up any unity amongst the mec's, essentially turning the groups against each other like they did last time.. then sell them off again a few years later.

What do you think they're currently doing with GGN and soon SKR (when they start towards a proper CBA)??

Transat? laughable.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by TFTMB heavy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:30 am

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:00 am
You're more likely to see AC purchase all of its regionals, merge them, create tension and break up any unity amongst the mec's, essentially turning the groups against each other like they did last time.. then sell them off again a few years later.

What do you think they're currently doing with GGN and soon SKR (when they start towards a proper CBA)??

Transat? laughable.
I find your idea laughable also since it creates labour dispute. I guess time will tell and we could also both be wrong.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:39 am

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:30 am
Rowdy wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:00 am
You're more likely to see AC purchase all of its regionals, merge them, create tension and break up any unity amongst the mec's, essentially turning the groups against each other like they did last time.. then sell them off again a few years later.

What do you think they're currently doing with GGN and soon SKR (when they start towards a proper CBA)??

Transat? laughable.
I find your idea laughable also since it creates labour dispute. I guess time will tell and we could also both be wrong.
Actually, with continued Express employee unionization, possible labour disruptions (no, the Minister will not intervene at operators who have small fleets and limited flights), and inevitable cost increases at GGN and SKR it would make sense for AC to encourage CHR to acquire either GGN, SKR, or both and see them merged in to Jazz.

Any requisite representation vote would likely be skipped by the CIRB due to relative size and existing representation within the relevant bargaining units. Jazz collective agreements are closed. No strike. No lockout. Fixed labour costs and nominal increases to 2025.

No cash outlay required from AC. Jazz already has the infrastructure to run the entire Express network. Dispatch. Scheduling. Maintenance (including heavy checks). Ability to finance aircraft acquisition and fleet renewal at Express on the CHR balance sheet.

This does not exclude the possibility that AC may want to acquire Transat AT with a view to putting more pressure on Sunwing Travel and WJ Vacations in the packaged tour business as well as adding significant lift over the North Atlantic.

Any strategic plan worth its salt is constantly under review and, if necessary, revision. I suspect that is the case at AC so the 2010/2015/2020/2025 plan is likely constantly evolving. Nobody’s crystal ball is ever 100% accurate.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:39 pm

Thanks for clarifying the BOD vote. It does say the ALPA Canada President sits on the HQ Board as a non voting member. Is there a EVP position as well? If so that could be filled by a majority vote of the ALPA-c Board or by roll call? Let’s say the largest group had a real issue with a candidate for that position so called for a roll call vote. Without 50% that could be refused by the ALPA-c Board. Even if a roll call was called then the largest group still requires support of likely the other largest group. This all seems very similar to CALPA in 1995.
Having said that, pilot groups need to work together and respect each other’s concerns. At CALPA, the AC pilots did not feel that their concerns were being addressed by the other groups especially the other large group. AC pilots will have to know that they can’t bully the ALPA-c Board like Trump and will likely have to be prepared to accommodate.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:40 am

Ratherbe wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:39 pm
Thanks for clarifying the BOD vote. It does say the ALPA Canada President sits on the HQ Board as a non voting member. Is there a EVP position as well? If so that could be filled by a majority vote of the ALPA-c Board or by roll call? Let’s say the largest group had a real issue with a candidate for that position so called for a roll call vote. Without 50% that could be refused by the ALPA-c Board. Even if a roll call was called then the largest group still requires support of likely the other largest group. This all seems very similar to CALPA in 1995.
Having said that, pilot groups need to work together and respect each other’s concerns. At CALPA, the AC pilots did not feel that their concerns were being addressed by the other groups especially the other large group. AC pilots will have to know that they can’t bully the ALPA-c Board like Trump and will likely have to be prepared to accommodate.
It's a good question. I think there are some things getting murky in the way the information is presented.

Currently ALL Canadian ALPA members are in Group C. Group C elects 1 EVP to the ALPA executive council.

For this reason, currently only Group C airlines comprise of the Canada Board, and the Group C EVP also sits as defacto ALPA-Canada President.

But Group C, and ALPA-C are actually not the same thing.

We would sit in our own, as a Group A carrier with our own EVP, but as a Canadian airline we will also be a part of the Canada Board.

The ALPA by-law/constitution amendments specify that the Group C EVP will no longer be ALPA-C President.

Here is the relevant amendment:
Third, Article XXII would be amended to separate the office of ALPA Canada President from the office of Group C Executive Vice President (currently the same person holds both roles), and to lengthen the terms for
all ALPA Canada Board officers to four years.
The Group A/B/C EVPs have a voting seat on the ALPA executive council - not the separately elected ALPA-C President, elected by roll call vote by all Canadian airlines whether Group A or C.
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Rowdy » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:06 am

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:30 am
Rowdy wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:00 am
You're more likely to see AC purchase all of its regionals, merge them, create tension and break up any unity amongst the mec's, essentially turning the groups against each other like they did last time.. then sell them off again a few years later.

What do you think they're currently doing with GGN and soon SKR (when they start towards a proper CBA)??

Transat? laughable.
I find your idea laughable also since it creates labour dispute. I guess time will tell and we could also both be wrong.
Thats the whole premise of the theory. Or have Chorus buy GGN or SKR etc. merge and create strife. As someone else stated, it would make sense. Jazz is locked til 2025 for cost. GGN's and SKR could skyrocket. Keep the costs down. Keep the pilots fighting themselves. They want dispute and chaos, so long as it doesn't interfere with their flights.

AC employs many bright minds that look for ways to control cost. They are way way ahead of us, the uneducated pilot group. Why did they scare both groups into 10 year cost neutral contracts? They knew the retirements and global expansion were coming. Its also why they wanted the age of retirement pushed to +65. Who do you think was vocal and motivated politically to change the ATPL requirements. Pretty good timing. Control the supply of pilots while the demand increases. Negating an increase in cost. Simply lower the bar and extend the working life of the current group.

Why don't we go above AC and force the hands within out government from a safety standpoint? MANDATE an ATPL for all 705 aircraft and positions. Mandate tougher and more stringent flight and duty time regs. That in itself would change the market quickly.

ACPA and it's small membership has no political power. ACPA based on its size also does not have the finances. ACPA based on it's history and directives does not (until recently) contribute to discussion with other pilot groups in the effort of bringing the whole industry up and forward.

A move to ALPA would bring that unity. The discussion. The political clout. Who has the better voice, 3800 ac pilots? or 10,000 across the country within multiple companies and +60,000 across north america?
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by CanadianEh » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:28 am

Well said Rowdy
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