Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

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Sinister
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Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by Sinister » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:20 pm

Word is, AC wins, CUPE loses, grievance re alleged promise to guarantee equal pass priority of AC F/As. Arbitrator upholds discretion of Air Canada to issue B2 passes to AC pilots without requiring same for F/As.

Also, arbitrator cites AC submission that prior agreement giving J-Class priority to F/Os over F/As was "a mistake", but upholds giving B2 priority passes for pilots for signing 10 yr contract.

Apparently, pass allocation at discretion of employer and not subject to contract negotiation is upheld.

Does anyone have a copy of this arbitration award?
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by pilotbzh » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:27 am

Wait until they hear Pilots get 3 B1 passes/year..... :twisted:
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by altiplano » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:46 am

FAs gladly took higher priority passes when offered by the employer. xmas, nye, performance based, etc. plus 3*C1/J10 on their own agreement.

Kudos to CUPE for trying to get something for their membership, something ACPA sorely lacks on. But if you
were to open the dictionary page to "entitled" you are going to see a picture of them. They think anything someone else at this airline gets they should get too.

SDs recently felt, and I believe grieved and lost that they should be paid same as FOs on the type they are working on.

"Institutional sexism" they call our pay, benefits, and anything generally better that they see us as having...

I am amused that their claims are based on, verbatim, "me too" deals, given that statements significance in media today.

But the fact is, other than these B1s, a higher hourly pay rate, and flight and duty time protections we don't have much better in our contract than the FAs.

FAs enjoy better per diems, better crew rest rules, better trip/duty pay guarantees, better OT rules, they can bid any flying in the airline and most finish a flying month in 10 days or less... not to mention the 40-50 years of seniority they can accrue when they get hired at 18 years old. Not a bad career or deal for a position that requires no experience, no education, no skills to get hired into.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by seriousflyer » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:51 am

What are b1/ b2 passes?
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by Cadismack » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:58 pm

Think this is what you were looking for.


https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/cala/doc/2 ... 30949.html
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by yycflyguy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:41 am

altiplano wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:46 am
FAs gladly took higher priority passes when offered by the employer. xmas, nye, performance based, etc. plus 3*C1/J10 on their own agreement.

Kudos to CUPE for trying to get something for their membership, something ACPA sorely lacks on. But if you
were to open the dictionary page to "entitled" you are going to see a picture of them. They think anything someone else at this airline gets they should get too.

SDs recently felt, and I believe grieved and lost that they should be paid same as FOs on the type they are working on.

"Institutional sexism" they call our pay, benefits, and anything generally better that they see us as having...

I am amused that their claims are based on, verbatim, "me too" deals, given that statements significance in media today.

But the fact is, other than these B1s, a higher hourly pay rate, and flight and duty time protections we don't have much better in our contract than the FAs.

FAs enjoy better per diems, better crew rest rules, better trip/duty pay guarantees, better OT rules, they can bid any flying in the airline and most finish a flying month in 10 days or less... not to mention the 40-50 years of seniority they can accrue when they get hired at 18 years old. Not a bad career or deal for a position that requires no experience, no education, no skills to get hired into.
Plus they get duty day minus four! I'd love to "me too" that for the pilots.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by Observer » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:13 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:46 am
FAs gladly took higher priority passes when offered by the employer. xmas, nye, performance based, etc. plus 3*C1/J10 on their own agreement.

Kudos to CUPE for trying to get something for their membership, something ACPA sorely lacks on.
Am I the only one not following your train of thought?

ACPA secures for its members a higher priority for both deadhead and vacation pass travel.

CUPE initiates a grievance to try and get the same for its members.

Altiplano says, "Kudos to CUPE for trying to get something for their membership, something ACPA sorely lacks on."

Sooooo... Why is CUPE grieving this? Because... ACPA got something for their membership, right?
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by altiplano » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:02 pm

Observer wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:13 pm
altiplano wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:46 am
FAs gladly took higher priority passes when offered by the employer. xmas, nye, performance based, etc. plus 3*C1/J10 on their own agreement.

Kudos to CUPE for trying to get something for their membership, something ACPA sorely lacks on.
Am I the only one not following your train of thought?

ACPA secures for its members a higher priority for both deadhead and vacation pass travel.

CUPE initiates a grievance to try and get the same for its members.

Altiplano says, "Kudos to CUPE for trying to get something for their membership, something ACPA sorely lacks on."

Sooooo... Why is CUPE grieving this? Because... ACPA got something for their membership, right?
ACPA is loath to follow through on grievances or court challenges.

They most recently abandoned the challenge to the 2011 Protecting Air Services Act which we would have won. Or if in the remote case we lost we would have at least fought the good fight, and TRIED to overturn what amounted to an enormous loss to our group.

We were gifted the B passes because we ratified a 10 year deal which allowed Air Canada to secure a new debt arrangement which has saved them 10's or 100's of millions of dollars, and allowed them to pursue a business plan that required us on board to happen. Not to mention hurt the above mentioned challenge. Not to mention it's unprecedented, a 10 year sub-COL contract.

We paid for J for FOs. It wasn't just the corporation giving us something for nothing, not to mention it is industry standard that pilots ride first/business when travelling on company business.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by Stu Pidasso » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:52 am

CUPE are a bunch of Communist nut cases that believe being a FA at Air Canada should be equal to the Pilots. Factor in our Socialist Country and a Socialist Company and unfortunately they have become addicted to some success.

Turning an unskilled labour job, into a career.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by groundpilot » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:10 am

They want Seniority to be recognized without recognizing the post secondary education, flight training and experience it takes to become an AC pilot that at times is extremely competitive...
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by yycflyguy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:54 am

Please don't lose sight of the fact that it is only 3 B1's for the pilots. It is not unlimited like many think. Last year, I only used two and both times I sat in economy. Add in the games that gate agents play with CON (and POS) travel and it's really not that important to me.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by Sinister » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:30 pm

But perception is reality. Try coming back from Barbados, with 25-plus years of seniority, seeing your family seconded to a recent hire and his or her young family, and having to spend another two or three days waiting for an opening. The optics are not pretty. There is a view that management should want to encourage factors that unite the employees as a group, rather than classifying employee groups according to a separate scale of values.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by RVR6000 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:29 am

Sinister wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:30 pm
But perception is reality. Try coming back from Barbados, with 25-plus years of seniority, seeing your family seconded to a recent hire and his or her young family, and having to spend another two or three days waiting for an opening. The optics are not pretty. There is a view that management should want to encourage factors that unite the employees as a group, rather than classifying employee groups according to a separate scale of values.
Or how about being left behind and a flight attendant boyfriend gets ahead of you. Has happened to me, Captain at the airline but a boyfriend has a higher priority as a nominated travel partner.

Hospitals/law firms many have great unity, but there is a clear line between employee groups.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by altiplano » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:33 am

Sinister wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:30 pm
But perception is reality. Try coming back from Barbados, with 25-plus years of seniority, seeing your family seconded to a recent hire and his or her young family, and having to spend another two or three days waiting for an opening. The optics are not pretty. There is a view that management should want to encourage factors that unite the employees as a group, rather than classifying employee groups according to a separate scale of values.
That's nice you got to extend your vacation.

Optics look about right. Pilots invest years of service and tens of thousands of dollars to reach the highly competitive level of joining AC. We can't show up at 18 years old start acruing 50 years of seniority as some of the unskilled groups do.

Not to mention other groups happily take higher priority passes regularly... FA's with 3 C1s plus bonus C1s for working holidays... imagine being a 25 year Engineer or Dispatcher and getting bumped by a 19 year old new hire FA and her boyfriend?

I don't hear anyone complaining about that.

If you don't like A/B/C priority, maybe we should do it based on age.

Maybe we should also all pay the same for our passes... FAs aren't complaining about the fact that all of their passes are service charge exempted.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by groundpilot » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:13 am

Sinister wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:30 pm
But perception is reality. Try coming back from Barbados, with 25-plus years of seniority, seeing your family seconded to a recent hire and his or her young family, and having to spend another two or three days waiting for an opening. The optics are not pretty. There is a view that management should want to encourage factors that unite the employees as a group, rather than classifying employee groups according to a separate scale of values.
If th loads are that tight maybe you should have just bought a ticket...you get what you pay for. This is a business
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by infiniteregulus » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:36 pm

Loads can change in the blink of an eye for many reasons. Mechanical plane on another flight, down-gauging, misconnects, etcccc
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by aerodude » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:40 pm

Wow that's a lot of pushing from flight attendants to be equal! Are they still allowed in the flight deck jumpseat when travelling on passes when cabin is full? That is quite an expeditious way to lose jumpseat privileges if they still have it.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by Sinister » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:21 pm

My post was simply about how we define equality. The employer has dictated, through this process, that when it comes to employment benefits, some are "more" equal than others. This is not about the jobs that we do or the value of our individual contribution to the airline's success. Rather, it is about sharing, equally, the fruits of our collective labour. And by deeming that one group of contributors should have greater privileges than another, apparently on the basis of signing a long-term contract, our collective benefits should be compromised? Don't think so. Not a good decision.

In a tug-of-war, in a competitive airline environment, we should all be on the same team. We should all carry our own weight and we should all be treated as having equally contributed, regardless of our job classifications.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by Victory » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:28 am

I don't know how much more I can take of this socialist bs country.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by altiplano » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:22 am

Sinister wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:21 pm
My post was simply about how we define equality. The employer has dictated, through this process, that when it comes to employment benefits, some are "more" equal than others. This is not about the jobs that we do or the value of our individual contribution to the airline's success. Rather, it is about sharing, equally, the fruits of our collective labour. And by deeming that one group of contributors should have greater privileges than another, apparently on the basis of signing a long-term contract, our collective benefits should be compromised? Don't think so. Not a good decision.

In a tug-of-war, in a competitive airline environment, we should all be on the same team. We should all carry our own weight and we should all be treated as having equally contributed, regardless of our job classifications.
You lost the greivance on this, just like you lost the push for Service Directors getting equal pay to FOs.

All positions aren't equal.

Neither should the compensation and benefits be.

We don't all bring the same skills and abilities to the airline. We work for the same company, the same team, but we don't all equally contribute.

You want pilot benefits? Then you should have put in the decade plus of training, sacrifice, and dedication it takes to become a pilot at a major airline.
You want management benefits? Should have got an MBA and taken the risks, worked your way up, done what it takes to earn that position.

You don't answer to the hypocrisy of FAs taking better staff travel benefits themselves, yet criticising the Pilots. Why don't you talk to your union about giving that back if you want equality?

Or take it the CBC, or the Human Rights Tribunal just like all the other people with complaints about Airlines and Pilots...

Or better yet go get another job if you feel so wronged...
I seriously doubt you'll do better though. AC FAs are better compensated and have better work rules than most/all other Canadian or even Legacy airlines... You should ask what that 35 year United FA pulls in next time you're in the lobby together at check in... ask her if she thinks that she ought to be compensated equally to pilots, or get the same benefits...

Meanwhile the pilots at AC are far far behind most of the same comparators...
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by Sinister » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:44 pm

Wrong assumption. I am a member of ACPA, not CUPE. And my point still stands. As employees entitled to the benefit of passes, yes, we are equal, or at least we should be equals. The more we are divided the less the strength of the group as a whole. Please don't tell me that the family of two-year R/P should displace the family of a 35-year agent who has withered lay-offs, mergers, recessions and bankruptcy simply because the new-hire is something special when it comes to pass travel—that his little cog in the machinery is so much more important than the other cogs in the machinery that enable the big machine to work.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by confusedalot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:25 pm

Just strolling around with nothing better to do...it is mind blowing that persons will make a big fuss for minor privileges. Seems to me that big red employees live in a world unto itself.

Worked for two feeders separated by decades. So I was never a mothercorp employee. In both instances, happened from time to time that I was tagged as a must fly for operational purposes, and some actually tried to jump the system proclaiming pass rights. Just so happen to have been an airplane driver. Not a big deal in itself, but I just so happened to be drafted and required. And hey, at the end of the day, would I really care if a privileged person got their way? Flight delayed or cancelled, who cares, right?

Pass privileges are cool things to have, but they remain privileges, not rights.

I dunno, can't be too terribly impressed by the rank and file personnel attitude of entitlement.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by altiplano » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:14 pm

Sinister wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:44 pm
Wrong assumption. I am a member of ACPA, not CUPE. And my point still stands. As employees entitled to the benefit of passes, yes, we are equal, or at least we should be equals. The more we are divided the less the strength of the group as a whole. Please don't tell me that the family of two-year R/P should displace the family of a 35-year agent who has withered lay-offs, mergers, recessions and bankruptcy simply because the new-hire is something special when it comes to pass travel—that his little cog in the machinery is so much more important than the other cogs in the machinery that enable the big machine to work.
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I call bullshit.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by BingBong » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:57 pm

Sinister wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:44 pm
that his little cog in the machinery is so much more important than the other cogs in the machinery that enable the big machine to work.
Guess what...if we all took our cogs and went home the "big machine" would cease to exist. Without pilots none of that would exist. Baggage handlers, ticket agents, rampies, ATC, CATSA, GTAA et al, fuellers.....all of it. Aviation would not exist.
Period.

So yes we are that important and somewhere down the yellow brick road people have forgotten that
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots

Post by infiniteregulus » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:03 pm

BingBong wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:57 pm
Sinister wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:44 pm
that his little cog in the machinery is so much more important than the other cogs in the machinery that enable the big machine to work.
Guess what...if we all took our cogs and went home the "big machine" would cease to exist. Without pilots none of that would exist. Baggage handlers, ticket agents, rampies, ATC, CATSA, GTAA et al, fuellers.....all of it. Aviation would not exist.
Period.

So yes we are that important and somewhere down the yellow brick road people have forgotten that
Never really thought of it that way. That is a good point. You should throw management in that list too haha :D
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