Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

Understated
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:29 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Understated »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am ...the AC pilot group didn't deserve the selfish-greediness displayed by the most senior pilots who benefited throughout their entire career of having pilots retire at 60 and then when it's their turn, they do a double-take and realize that they can sit on top of the pile for 5 more years, with zero regard to the lives or career progression of the pilots below them....or the already retired group that is going via the CHRT to get cash out of the union and company with no intention on their part of returning to the work force.
No perception problem, right? No matter what the evidence is, according to you, it all comes down to greed and self-interest on the part of those who may possibly share some of the benefit of the changes that were bound to happen.
Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am So here we are 15 years later, the FP60 group have failed to win a significant legal victory (if any), through the CHRT and now we are moving on to get GDIP for the FP60 group...
It is not correct to say that the FP60 group failed to win a significant legal victory. The Vilven Tribunal decision and the Federal Court decision finding the mandatory retirement exemption to be of no force and effect were major victories, leading to the arbitration decisions that reinstated the employment of baggage handlers, mechanics, flight attendants and sales agents. They would have resulted in the reinstatement of pilots, as well, were it not for ACPA's refusal to put the question before an arbitrator, as the arbitrators were all bound by the Federal Court decision.

The fact that the Federal Court of Appeal overturned the Tribunal and Federal Court decisions on a principle of law that the Supreme Court of Canada later rejected places the prior Tribunal decision and Federal Court decision back before this Tribunal hearing the remaining cases of pilots whose employment was terminated just before the repeal came into effect.

It is therefore still too early to conclude that the prior proceedings were a failure.

But those facts apparently have no way of penetrating the consciousness of anyone like yourself who parrots the ideology that we see so often in contract negotiations, namely, "Don't confuse me with the facts - my mind's made up..." or "It's all about greed."
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4221
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by altiplano »

It is self interest. What else could it be? That is clear.

It's certainly not a benefit for anyone else but those that had the right timing to be on the top when it flipped.

Personally I think we should be 30 and gone... You get your 30 years at the trough, steady, even, equal progression, and you're gone... Hired at 25? Lucky you, retire at 55. Hired at 35? I guess you're going until 65 if you want your time at the top. Hired at 40? I think we can all get behind FP65 so you get your time like the rest of us.

Same benefits, same opportunities for progression (pay) for all... The only limiting factors are the economy, personal choice (equipment bid), and perhaps getting hired at the tail end of a wave... but more or less Even Steven.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

It is not correct to say that the FP60 group failed to win a significant legal victory.
Well this is a pilot's forum, so please excuse me for not including all the other groups that allow you to claim some sort of vicarious legal victory

As far as I can tell FP60 = 0 legal victories for pilots as of June 12, 2018
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by confusedalot »

yep, it's a pilot forum alright, with the rather novel notion that retiring as early as possible is the holy grail of life itself.

know a small business guy who closed up shop at 80, not because he needed the money.

another one, a specialized lawyer, going strong at 70, once again, not because of money, he actually likes what he is doing.

The Warren Buffets and Bill Gates of this world are also active, yet they have billions and don't really need to work.

and dare I even mention the retired airline types who are still active in the business elsewhere. shocking.

that is all.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?
User avatar
Doug Moore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Doug Moore »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am
Please explain the upside of FP60? Being able to work past 60? Most people don't consider that an upside....

Most ACPA members are happy that the union stood up to the cash/seniority grab.
I could start with the $127 million windfall (pointed out in a posting above) that went straight to the company's coffers as a result of the FP60 effect on the pension plan, but it would appear that's OK with the juniors as long as those seniors didn't see a single penny more by working past 60. A slice of that $127M pie could have eliminated any perceived loss of pay due to a delayed advancement and possibly even resulted in a net increase for everyone despite a delayed advancement.

Or how about being able to earn additional years of pensionable service by working past 60 and having a larger pension upon retirement? Very few members are able to achieve the maximum years of pensionable service in the DB plan and in the DC plan those years of contributions can be very significant, particularly if you have the misfortune to be considering retirement in a market downturn. You may dream today about "freedom 55" but when that day arrives on the calendar I have every confidence that you will very much appreciate having the choice to either elect retirement or to continue working.

As for your stating that "most people" don't consider working past 60 as an being an upside, come back to me when you're 60, and when you have the choice to continue working or to retire, and then tell me whether or not having that choice is an upside.

There are other esoteric benefits that only become apparent later in life and which, to describe same here, would only fall on younger, deaf ears.

I have no doubt that many people in ACPA are indeed "happy"; however, the only "cash/seniority grab" that has unfolded is the one gained by those who fought to get as many senior people as possible off the list and who now happily look forward to imposing upon those below them exactly what they fought so ruthlessly against with those above them. The irony of it all is plain to see. Not to mention the hypocrisy.

Are you one of those who "couldn't" or one of those who "wouldn't" consider the upside benefits of FP 60?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8082
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Rockie »

It’s clear the usual suspects still don’t get it, and as you suggest Doug they won’t until they reach that age and finally do without a trace of irony. But why deny health benefits to over 60 pilots if not to punish them?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Unions Protest Against Increase in Retirement Age - Total Croatia News

Doctors protest over retirement age | Jaipur News - Times of India

Raising retirement age a risky move for governments

Violent Protests in France over Retirement Age - CBS News

Protests across France against higher pension age - Reuters

France Raises Retirement Age to 62, Citizens Protest - The Atlantic

Doctors Not Attend Duties | to Protest Against Retirement Age Increase

French throng streets in retirement age showdown | CTV News

Thousands Protesting in Brussels Against Increase of Retirement Age

Women protest at 'unfair' raising of retirement age | Calendar - ITV News






Yep, you're right...most people across the world consider raising the retirement age a good thing......
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

I could start with the $127 million windfall (pointed out in a posting above) that went straight to the company's coffers as a result of the FP60 effect on the pension plan,
Other than your considered opinion, what evidence do have to show that the company was going to share one red cent with the pilot group???

Zero is the the answer.

The pension has been in surplus for several years and yet pilots are still paying an extra 1.5% contribution..

And the company said that getting rid of the 1.5% was a non-starter...so I'm sure AC was willing to hand 127 million over to ACPA, yep, I'm sure of it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8082
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Rockie »

All of those Lt. Kaffee refer to raising government pension ages before citizens can even begin to collect them. In other words the social safety net. The last Conservative government did the same with OAS raising the age from 65 to 67. The hated Liberals moved it back to 65.

What does that have to do with Air Canada pilot's private pension plan? You are not prevented from collecting your pension at the age you would have before should you choose to, not only that but career progression since 2012 has wildly exceeded anyone's expectations and you know it. Compare your system seniority percentage now to where it was in 2012 to see how hollow your bleating about what could have been rings.

Bottom line is unlike your examples you have the choice and your life is far better off now than it was whether you realize it or not.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Doug Moore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Doug Moore »

:prayer: Geez, Lieutenant, I guess I'll just have to place you in both camps: both with those who "can't", and with those who "won't" see the benefits of FP60.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4221
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by altiplano »

I sure wish ACPA had some "non-starters"...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Understated
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:29 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Understated »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am Please explain the upside of FP60? Being able to work past 60?
My guess is that you arrived on the property long after I and my cohorts took a pay cut for over a year in order to save junior pilots from being furloughed. Showing any financial deference for anyone or anything but your own pocketbook is clearly not in your consensus. To you, it's a zero sum game, everyone for himself or herself, no matter what the long-term best interests of the group might be. And by way of analogy, you necessarily assume that everyone else operates with the same motivation.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Lt. Daniel Kaffee
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:43 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jerry-dia ... _23463095/

Workers Past 65 Should Do The Right Thing And Retire
Labour leaders warned that getting rid of mandatory retirement would create a block to young workers entering the workforce.
Jerry **** National President, Unifor

************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Sometimes, it's best to just get out of the way.

I recently attended the last United Auto Workers convention for Dennis Williams, who retired as president of the union. Williams, in my opinion, is articulate, determined and deeply principled.

We need more like him, but at age 65 Williams decided it was time for him to step aside and let the next generation of leadership take over. To me, it was the latest principled move by him, and made room for Gary Jones to be elected president.

With Jones as president, someone else will take his job, and someone else will take that person's job, and so on down the line until a new opportunity is created for a young worker.


Several decades ago, I can almost guarantee it, someone at de Havilland (now Bombardier) retired, creating a chain reaction that would open up a position in the plant where I would eventually get my first job. The time will come for me to retire, and I will, because it is the right thing to do — both for young workers and for the strength of the labour movement.

In order for the labour movement to flourish — or any business, agency or school, for that matter — the current generation of leadership must work with the youth to ensure they are able to lead.

Mandatory retirement began to disappear more than 10 years ago as province after province voted to end the ability of employers to compel workers to retire when they turned 65, followed by the federal government in 2012.

Forcing people to retire at a certain age came to be seen as discrimination on the basis of age. If people wanted to work past age 65, the argument went, they should be allowed.

Quite rightly, labour leaders warned that getting rid of mandatory retirement would create a block to young workers entering the workforce. It was the right stand to take then, and it's the right stand to take now. The law may have changed, but our principles must not.

Workers should retire at age 65, if only to create a new job that a young worker can fill. I can promise that I will retire before I turn 65, just as my predecessors at the Canadian Auto Workers union — Bob White, Buzz Hargrove and Ken Lewenza — did before me.

I just hope I am not alone, and I am calling on labour leaders to lead this effort. No labour leader claiming to put the needs of young people first can do so with any legitimacy while also clinging to their jobs past the age of 65.

There are really only two reasons a labour leader does not retire by 65. They are either so arrogant that they think no one else can do their job, or they have not done the work needed to prepare the next generation to take over.

They may think they are keeping the labour movement strong by sticking around and continuing to lead on the basis of their experience, but the process of preparing future generation is what ultimately makes for a stronger union.

The same goes for any business, agency or school where the old guard refuses to leave.

Despite this, there are too many examples of labour leaders working well past the traditional retirement date, and even well into their 70s. We spend much of our time as labour leaders fighting for good pensions. It's hypocritical not to use them when we have the chance.

There is no excuse for this. If you are in your 70s, you come from a different era. It is time to retire, and let some new blood flow into the organization. Those refusing to retire are putting their own agenda and ambition ahead of the needs of young people, and in the process stifling the young leaders.

The labour movement is not alone in this. Corporate leaders also often work past retirement age, and in academia we have the unseemly situation of professors who refuse to retire, while young people are forced on strike for weeks in hopes of getting something approaching a stable teaching job.

Don't get me wrong. I love the work I do. I could not imagine doing anything else. When the time comes, however, I will do the right thing and retire, and open up a position for a young worker, with fresh ideas and fresh perspectives on the challenges we face.

Having spoken to so many committed and talented young people in my time as president, I know I will be leaving things in good hands.

Have you been affected personally by this or another issue? Share your story on HuffPost Canada blogs. We feature the best of Canadian opinion and perspectives. Find out how to contribute here.

********************************************************************************************************
Jerry doesn't seem to think this is an issue of dignity or human rights....who'da figured that...

I guess the FP60 will be striking Jerry off the witness list at the next CHRT hearing....
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Doug Moore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Doug Moore »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:30 am https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jerry-dia ... _23463095/

Jerry doesn't seem to think this is an issue of dignity or human rights....who'da figured that...

I guess the FP60 will be striking Jerry off the witness list at the next CHRT hearing....
Jerry, a 55 year-old union boss is entitled to his opinion. Some may consider his words gospel while others may see just another self-congratulatory union rant. He "promises" he will retire before 65 and good for him, particularly if retirement is his choice and on his terms. There are, however, other opinions Lieutenant, which I suspect hold little meaning to you and others your age. You don't have to agree with it, but at least try to respect it:

Seniors Stay Vital by Working: Of course, there’s another reason that seniors might continue to work well past the traditional age of retirement — because they actually want to. “Among the emerging boomers, there is a desire to stay active in their professions or work. This can be a positive phenomenon,” says William Hall, MD, professor of medicine at the University of Rochester School of Medicine and director of the Center for Healthy Aging at Highland Hospital in Rochester, N.Y. “If you feel productive and valued, don’t think about retirement.”
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2044
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Old fella »

Not being part of the Air Canada stock, however getting real close to the 70 age demographic I have to observe that said airline has some good movement in the hiring end this past few years. If I read some board commentary correctly pilots who have been on the property 5 years and even less have moved over to the left seat. To an observer like me, it is kinda hard to figure out why those pilots beyond 60 yrs old who elect to continue flying( for whatever reason, be it job enjoyment, increased pensionable time, need the money due personal situation) are holding back others who are lower on the totem pole. In my working experience majority those who are able to leave after 60 yrs old with a decent pension income do so. For every one I know who elected to stick around because they enjoyed their job , five others said nope we are done. On both counts it was a personal decision by those involved.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8082
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Rockie »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:30 am Jerry doesn't seem to think this is an issue of dignity or human rights....who'da figured that...

I guess the FP60 will be striking Jerry off the witness list at the next CHRT hearing....
Ask Jerry what he thinks if he’s forced to retire before he wants to. Ask you what you think if you’re forced to do the same thing. I can easily imagine you and Jerry’s abrupt change of attitude once you’re the ones discriminated against.

I also wouldn’t brag about what you and Jerry think now. It’s not a flattering look.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1083
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Fanblade »

Rockie wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:30 am It’s not a flattering look.
Rockie,

You are turning into an ideologue. Life is far too complex to be able to apply an ideology without common sense and consideration of the collateral damage. But this is what fanatical ideologues do anyway. Anything pointed out that can’t fit in the ideologues limited view of right and wrong is discarded as inaccurate, intolerant, biased, fabricated.......etc etc etc.

What was expressed in that article was an opinion different than your own. An opinion with valid points. An opinion that deserves respect. The fact is the change in retirement age has had consequences for younger generations throughout all of our society and just because it doesn’t fit your ideology doesn’t mean you can just ignore it. That would be irrational. It would be intolerant. It would be willful bias. It would be behaving the exact way you claim you want stopped.

Forget your microscopic focus on AC. We are developing a lost generation of highly educated and under employed young adults in this country, because they have limited opportunities as the retirement age change reaches a new equilibrium. Yet these youth are being pumped out of university at a rate which once could accept them, but currently can not. That’s a fact. In fact that acceptance rate has been permanently altered for every generation that follows. In this ever changing technological environment it is extreamely difficult to remain relevant in ones field after 3-5 years of non participation. As a result young Canadians are being left out. Denied the same opportunities you and I enjoyed.

Then my peers ( yes I’m getting up there myself) have the gall to complain that thier 30 year old can’t support themselves yet. Duh!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But in your ideology that’s fine because the youth don’t have rights under the charter. Any expectations they had for equality are reduced, derided and chided as intolerant “entitlement”. If they persist they get painted with an ageism brush.

An example. For medical students after two years of going unmatched in residency their career in medicine is over. By 2020 it is expected that over 100 medical students in this country, that year alone, will go unmatched.

Guess why? There is no where to go. Openings in specialties are drying up as there is no movement currently. Far worse than our industry in fact. We have been fortunate at AC as the retirement age change has been relatively small (5 years) and masked by growth. If the same changes had happened during the industry consolidation of the mid 2000’s as perponents of the change wanted? The results would have been catastrophic for those who were younger.

For illustrative purposes only. If our economy needed 1000 new box makers every year to replace those retiring in the box making industry when the average career was 40 years. Then the economy only needs 800 new box makers every year if the average career becomes 50 years. It’s simple math. It’s not just the fact no new box makers will be needed for 10 years as the average career transitions from 40-50 years. Even after rebalancing at the new retirement career of 50 years only 800 new box maker positions will come available every year to replace those retiring.

To my fellow peers who are younger. My apologies. Not for the age of retirement increasing. That was inevitable. We are living too long. It’s not realistic to expect one can work for 40 years, then retire for another 40. That math doesn’t add up. I applogize because my generation, the ones who were in charge of rule making, changed the rules in a way that benefitted only us.

Not all of us believe this is right or ethical.

Expunge agiesm yes. At the expense of others NO!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Fanblade on Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Sharklasers
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Sharklasers »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Sharklasers on Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by daedalusx »

Boomers ... The only generation in the history of mankind that had it better than their parents...and their kids.
---------- ADS -----------
 
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8082
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Disability Benefits For Pilots Over Age 60

Post by Rockie »

Fanblade wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:18 am Rockie,

You are turning into an ideologue. Life is far too complex to be able to apply an ideology without common sense and consideration of the collateral damage. But this is what fanatical ideologues do anyway. Anything pointed out that can’t fit in the ideologues limited view of right and wrong is discarded as inaccurate, intolerant, biased, fabricated.......etc etc etc.
I've never heard human rights described as an ideology before. New one.

All you've said in this post is your interpretation which is not borne out by the facts. Youth unemployment is a complex issue effected by many factors that have nothing to do with forced retirement at any age as every study I've scanned through concludes. This study below explicitly debunks the theory that low youth employment is caused by people retiring later. As for doctors, there is lots of work for them in small communities throughout Canada, and even bigger ones that may seem undesirable to them. I've been without a family doctor for way too many of my years because there weren't any available where I've lived. You're barking up the wrong tree there.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/w ... 8_wise.pdf

"In this volume, we direct attention to the oft-claimed proposition that
incentives to induce older persons to retire—inherent in the provisions of social
security systems—were prompted by youth unemployment. And that if the
incentives to retire were removed, and older persons stayed longer in the labor
force, the job opportunities of youth would be reduced. We find no evidence to
support this boxed economy proposition. We find no evidence that increasing
the labor force participation of older persons reduces the job opportunities of
young persons.
Indeed the evidence suggests that greater labor force
participation of older persons is associated with greater youth employment and
with reduced youth unemployment. "
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”