Cannabis Policy ???

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land3
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Cannabis Policy ???

#1 Post by land3 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:40 am

Retired guy here.....anyone care to share what mothercorp has deciding on cannabis policy for flight crew?
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flyer 1492
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#2 Post by flyer 1492 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:20 am

TC trumps (pardon the pun) what ever AC may come up with. The official line from my CAME is "Thou shall not use it".
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Victory
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#3 Post by Victory » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:37 am

CAME's are not regulators so that's not really an official line. TC's in a tough spot to say anything since an out right ban could be fought as a human rights violation. I kind of doubt they will come out with bong to throttle regulations like they have for alcohol because there isn't enough science about impairment yet. Air Canada currently states that social drug use other that alcohol is strictly prohibited.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#4 Post by ZBBYLW » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:04 am

TC will have to come up with a rule, too many PPLs bombing around, something will have to be published I would hope. AC is also in a tough position possibly more with ramp personal in a safety position without a license but will be interesting to see.
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Posthumane
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#5 Post by Posthumane » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:20 pm

The Canadian Forces recently released their new cannabis policy. The general rule is no less than 8 hours before any duty, 24 hours before driving a vehicle or operating any weapon, and for aircrew it's 28 days prior to any flight duty or any training in a hypobaric chamber (same goes for parachutists) due to the potential for the effects being amplified at high altitude. I imagine TC will take a similar stance in time, since an outright ban would probably not go over well.
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Lightchop
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#6 Post by Lightchop » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:19 pm

Well apparently cops can use, and they carry firearms.

https://vancouversun.com/cannabis/canna ... t-for-duty

With the whole kerfufle with the USA right now, I'm sure motherships stance will be "don't use, and if you do and loose your job because you're banned from the USA don't come crying to us."
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Outlaw58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#7 Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:07 am

This whole human rights thing is driving me up the wall...

Geebus... the thing has been illegal like forever, can folks just be happy that it is becoming legal and accept that there will be lots of restrictions....at least to start with? Keep it very restrictive at first with the caveat that regulation could loosen up as data over use becomes available and proper conclusions can be derived. It would be a helluva lot harder to go the other way ie make it loose to start with and find out later that it doesn't work and THEN further restrict. There will be riots.

So what if it were outright banned from aviation... and law enforcement, Military, Healthcare, etc... It is my humble opinion that if people in these jobs can't function or socialize (for what ever reason) without using canabis, then perhaps they should reconsider their line of work. It's not like they would be taking anything away, it's already illegal. Folks would just have to stay the course and accept the consequences post-legalization the same way some have been until now.

2 cents,

58
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Last edited by Outlaw58 on Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#8 Post by Jean-Pierre » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:28 am

No making something illegal for only part of the population is the definition of discrimination.
I also laugh at AC policy to strictly all social drug but alcohol. I wonder how many smoking a cigarette or drinking a coffee realize they violate that policy.
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Bede
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#9 Post by Bede » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:32 am

Victory wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:37 am
CAME's are not regulators so that's not really an official line. TC's in a tough spot to say anything since an out right ban could be fought as a human rights violation.
Where do people come up with all of these things that are supposed human rights violations? Where is there written a human right to consume a specific substance? This argument has repeatedly rejected by courts of every level in Canada (see SCC PHS Health Services, if I recall correctly). There are many existing prohibitions for consuming medication and holding a medical. I don't care one way or the other, but there will be some sort of rule in place, and it certainly won't be a human rights violation.
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yvrflyguy
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#10 Post by yvrflyguy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:24 am

The FOM supersedes whatever transport comes out with anyways....so AC can definitely ban it for their pilots. If companies can say a guy drilling a hole in the ground in northern alberta cant smoke pot, what makes you think the boys upstairs at AC cant make that same call..?
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#11 Post by Lightchop » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:28 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:07 am
This whole human rights thing is driving me up the wall...

Geebus... the thing has been illegal like forever, can folks just be happy that it is becoming legal and accept that there will be lots of restrictions....at least to start with? Keep it very restrictive at first with the caveat that regulation could loosen up has data over use becomes available and proper conclusions can be derived. It would be a helluva lot harder to go the other way ie make it loose to start with and fins out later that it doesn't work and THEN further restrict. There will be riots.

So what if it were outright banned from aviation... and law enforcement, Military, Healthcare, etc... It is my humble opinion that if people in these jobs can't function or socialize (for what ever reason) without using canabis, then perhaps they should consider their line of work. It's not like they would be taking anything away, it's already illegal. Folks would just have to stay the course and accept the consequences post-legalization the same way some have been until now.

2 cents,

58
Agreed
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#12 Post by Dry Guy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:32 am

yvrflyguy wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:24 am
The FOM supersedes whatever transport comes out with anyways....so AC can definitely ban it for their pilots. If companies can say a guy drilling a hole in the ground in northern alberta cant smoke pot, what makes you think the boys upstairs at AC cant make that same call..?
Well marijuana is still currently illegal. What will be interesting is what happens after October with regards to that guy drilling a hole in the ground.

The FOM could say 'all alcohol use is strictly banned' which would supersede TC. It would be up to the employee to file a complaint with the human rights tribunal or other court if they were dismissed under this policy and they felt it was unjust.

I think it will be a long time before any pilot challenges these rules though because of the stigma around marijuana would make it difficult for them to win in the court of public opinion. They would lose likely lose social status and career opportunity even if they won their case. Hopefully some rich oldtimer close to retirement puts these policies to the test so we can at least get an official stance from the government.
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readyou5by5
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#13 Post by readyou5by5 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:35 pm

Victory wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:37 am
I kind of doubt they will come out with bong to throttle regulations like they have for alcohol.
Toke-to-yoke has a better flow to it
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Kejidog
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#14 Post by Kejidog » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:46 pm

readyou5by5 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:35 pm
Victory wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:37 am
I kind of doubt they will come out with bong to throttle regulations like they have for alcohol.
Toke-to-yoke has a better flow to it
That is the win! :prayer:
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av8ts
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#15 Post by av8ts » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:08 pm

yvrflyguy wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:24 am
The FOM supersedes whatever transport comes out with anyways....so AC can definitely ban it for their pilots. If companies can say a guy drilling a hole in the ground in northern alberta cant smoke pot, what makes you think the boys upstairs at AC cant make that same call..?
The FOM only supersedes TC regulations when the the FOM is more restrictive
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Victory
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#16 Post by Victory » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:15 pm

Police will be allowed to use marijuana between shifts as long as they are"fit for duty", and they have firearms. It could be argued that in a normal day at work they are responsible for hundreds of lives too. I don't think pilots should use marijuana because I've seen the mental effects of long term use first hand. But if police are allowed it's hard to argue pilots should be outright banned.
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#17 Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:28 pm

There are 2 sets of laws in Canada, 1 for the elite and the cops and another for the rest of us !
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altiplano
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#18 Post by altiplano » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:07 pm

I'm not going to be smoking any pot... So I could care less about a ban if that's what the mothership wants.

BUT it has a cost if they want to regulate my legal behaviour in my private time. What we do in our private time is not Flight Operations Manual relevant and they can't unilaterally impose behaviour on us.

They will have to negotiate it, and I will want to be compensated for it... they will have to fix a whole bunch of things in our contract if they want to regulate our law abiding lives.

I think it's a good investment for them. Preempt any misunderstandings enforcement/customs/media related or otherwise from the start, and fix some of the pilots problems.

I'd feel good about that compromise. Win-Win.

If they are looking to just impose restrictions on legal behaviour in my free time, I might have to take up smoking pot out of spite.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#19 Post by lownslow » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:11 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:07 pm
If they are looking to just impose restrictions on legal behaviour in my free time, I might have to take up smoking pot out of spite.
Why wait? Just crush a couple beers five minutes before the start of your next duty day. It’s your free time, after all.
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altiplano
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#20 Post by altiplano » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:42 pm

lownslow wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:11 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:07 pm
If they are looking to just impose restrictions on legal behaviour in my free time, I might have to take up smoking pot out of spite.
Why wait? Just crush a couple beers five minutes before the start of your next duty day. It’s your free time, after all.
We have a responsibility to be fit for duty and comply with CARs and Canadian law. Your attempt at an argument is against the law and isn't at all analogous to what I'm saying.
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Victory
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#21 Post by Victory » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:54 pm

What about non-domestic flights though? Just about everywhere Air Canada flies outside of Canada has strict laws against marijuana. No AC pilot flies inside of Canada only.

Canadian truckers that cross into the US get drug tested regularly by their own companies. That is the price of being allowed to operate into the States. If they test positive they are terminated. I can forsee the US and perhaps other countries demanding such a system be implemented at Canadian airlines that operate into the US or elsewhere.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#22 Post by lownslow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:34 am

altiplano wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:42 pm
lownslow wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:11 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:07 pm
If they are looking to just impose restrictions on legal behaviour in my free time, I might have to take up smoking pot out of spite.
Why wait? Just crush a couple beers five minutes before the start of your next duty day. It’s your free time, after all.
We have a responsibility to be fit for duty and comply with CARs and Canadian law. Your attempt at an argument is against the law and isn't at all analogous to what I'm saying.
Bottle-to-throttle is of course eight hours (or ten, or twelve, whatever your Ops manual calls out), but I have it on very good authority that the medical recommendation made to TC for toke-to-yoke was sixty days.. I think it’s so oppressive sounding that they’re scared to publish it for fear of having to enforce it. If written into law, I can’t imagine your Ops manual or mine saying anything other than don’t.

And remember, just like drinking it’s going to be perfectly legal for all adults to do in their free time very soon.
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altiplano
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#23 Post by altiplano » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:55 am

Well if that's the law then that's the law... that's different.

60 days? That is excessive considering there are a lot of people in this country in positions of responsibility and pilots are being singled out.

But it doesn't surprise me given this government's (and the last government's) propensity to ignore rational and science based decisions when writing (or failing to write) law ie. Duty and Fatigue regulations.

Somebody will challenge it in court if that is indeed true.

Whatever law comes out though, my position is that companies have no right to impose on you - via their flight operations manuals or whatever - what is beyond the law and their scope of operations in your private behaviour. It is separate and irrelevant to your function as their employee. I, personally, am happy to meet their requests/needs, but it's a 2 way street.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#24 Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:15 am

What is Air Canada's rule for drinking? the law says 8 hours but is your Ops manual not more restrictive than that?

When it comes to pot, which is still illegal in pretty much every other country you will fly to, you'd be in a lot of legal trouble, not to mention probably end your career if you got caught with pot in your system in a random drug/alcohol test. It can be detected 3-10 days after use. Even up to several months if you're a heavy user.

altiplano wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:55 am

Whatever law comes out though, my position is that companies have no right to impose on you - via their flight operations manuals or whatever - what is beyond the law and their scope of operations in your private behaviour. It is separate and irrelevant to your function as their employee. I, personally, am happy to meet their requests/needs, but it's a 2 way street.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#25 Post by Dry Guy » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:48 am

Potential Marijuana rules for pilots in Canada is and interesting topic. I'll agree with the others that say the point is moot though since Air Canada is an international airline. Even if you are given carte blanche to use in Canada you will not be in the other countries you fly. I imagine they will be ramping up testing on Canadians too after legalization.
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