Cannabis Policy ???

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Victory
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Victory »

What about non-domestic flights though? Just about everywhere Air Canada flies outside of Canada has strict laws against marijuana. No AC pilot flies inside of Canada only.

Canadian truckers that cross into the US get drug tested regularly by their own companies. That is the price of being allowed to operate into the States. If they test positive they are terminated. I can forsee the US and perhaps other countries demanding such a system be implemented at Canadian airlines that operate into the US or elsewhere.
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lownslow
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by lownslow »

altiplano wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:42 pm
lownslow wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:11 pm
altiplano wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:07 pm If they are looking to just impose restrictions on legal behaviour in my free time, I might have to take up smoking pot out of spite.
Why wait? Just crush a couple beers five minutes before the start of your next duty day. It’s your free time, after all.
We have a responsibility to be fit for duty and comply with CARs and Canadian law. Your attempt at an argument is against the law and isn't at all analogous to what I'm saying.
Bottle-to-throttle is of course eight hours (or ten, or twelve, whatever your Ops manual calls out), but I have it on very good authority that the medical recommendation made to TC for toke-to-yoke was sixty days.. I think it’s so oppressive sounding that they’re scared to publish it for fear of having to enforce it. If written into law, I can’t imagine your Ops manual or mine saying anything other than don’t.

And remember, just like drinking it’s going to be perfectly legal for all adults to do in their free time very soon.
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altiplano
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by altiplano »

Well if that's the law then that's the law... that's different.

60 days? That is excessive considering there are a lot of people in this country in positions of responsibility and pilots are being singled out.

But it doesn't surprise me given this government's (and the last government's) propensity to ignore rational and science based decisions when writing (or failing to write) law ie. Duty and Fatigue regulations.

Somebody will challenge it in court if that is indeed true.

Whatever law comes out though, my position is that companies have no right to impose on you - via their flight operations manuals or whatever - what is beyond the law and their scope of operations in your private behaviour. It is separate and irrelevant to your function as their employee. I, personally, am happy to meet their requests/needs, but it's a 2 way street.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

What is Air Canada's rule for drinking? the law says 8 hours but is your Ops manual not more restrictive than that?

When it comes to pot, which is still illegal in pretty much every other country you will fly to, you'd be in a lot of legal trouble, not to mention probably end your career if you got caught with pot in your system in a random drug/alcohol test. It can be detected 3-10 days after use. Even up to several months if you're a heavy user.

altiplano wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:55 am
Whatever law comes out though, my position is that companies have no right to impose on you - via their flight operations manuals or whatever - what is beyond the law and their scope of operations in your private behaviour. It is separate and irrelevant to your function as their employee. I, personally, am happy to meet their requests/needs, but it's a 2 way street.
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Dry Guy
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Dry Guy »

Potential Marijuana rules for pilots in Canada is and interesting topic. I'll agree with the others that say the point is moot though since Air Canada is an international airline. Even if you are given carte blanche to use in Canada you will not be in the other countries you fly. I imagine they will be ramping up testing on Canadians too after legalization.
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Posthumane
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Posthumane »

altiplano wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:55 am 60 days? That is excessive considering there are a lot of people in this country in positions of responsibility and pilots are being singled out.

But it doesn't surprise me given this government's (and the last government's) propensity to ignore rational and science based decisions when writing (or failing to write) law ie. Duty and Fatigue regulations.

Somebody will challenge it in court if that is indeed true.
I believe the 60 day recommendation, like the RCAF 28 day rule, is not based on the fact that pilots are in more of a position of responsibility than others but rather because of the potential for side effects when exposed to high altitude / low pressure. It is also the case for people exposed to high pressures, such as divers. It is similar to other medications such as amphetamine based ones.
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BlueSkies12
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by BlueSkies12 »

It's official:

"Responsibilities of Employees Engaged in Safety-Critical Work
Employees engaged in Safety-Critical Work are prohibited from using Cannabis and Illegal Drugs at all times,
even when not On Duty or in the workplace."

I assume pilot is considered "safety critical" :lol:
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by goingnowherefast »

What's the source?
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BlueSkies12
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by BlueSkies12 »

Air Canada's "Human Resources and Safety Drug and Alcohol Policy"
Revised August 17, effective October 17.
Is that good enough?
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lownslow
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by lownslow »

BlueSkies12 wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:53 pm prohibited from using Cannabis and Illegal Drugs at all times, even when not On Duty or in the workplace.
Yikes, so much for my planned observance of the year anniversary since Gord Downie’s passing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_Downie

Too bad, I’m sure it’s what he would have wanted.
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Mr. North
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Mr. North »

A not so surprising response considering there is currently no suitable means to prove impairment or any guidelines for them to fall back on. TC, as usual, has been completely absent in providing any sort of progressive, thoughtful leadership. Cannabis will be legal in less than a month and it stands to disrupt both the alcohol and pharmaceutical market in a way most folks haven't even considered. Within a few years it will be everywhere. At that point their "zero tolerance at all times" will be quite inane if not unenforceable. On par with saying today that everyone is to abstain from alcohol "at all times".

Regulations move at a glacial pace especially when grinding against reefer madness. Within 5-10 years though I'm sure most safety related positions will have some sort of benchmark to follow. Until then, the only thing getting high will be my TFSA! Hahaha!
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Victory
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Victory »

BlueSkies12 wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:53 pm It's official:

"Responsibilities of Employees Engaged in Safety-Critical Work
Employees engaged in Safety-Critical Work are prohibited from using Cannabis and Illegal Drugs at all times,
even when not On Duty or in the workplace."

I assume pilot is considered "safety critical" :lol:
The ramp guys are considered safety critical too. I'm kind of doubting those guys are going to be following this policy :lol:
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Outlaw58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Outlaw58 »

Victory wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:37 am
BlueSkies12 wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:53 pm It's official:

"Responsibilities of Employees Engaged in Safety-Critical Work
Employees engaged in Safety-Critical Work are prohibited from using Cannabis and Illegal Drugs at all times,
even when not On Duty or in the workplace."

I assume pilot is considered "safety critical" :lol:
The ramp guys are considered safety critical too. I'm kind of doubting those guys are going to be following this policy :lol:
If folks, be they aircrew or ground crew, are observing the rules now (ie abstaining), why would anything change in October if the same restrictions apply??

I don't think a drug problem will develop as a result of the law in our operation, what I am suggesting is that if there IS a problem, it's here NOW.

58
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Outlaw58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Outlaw58 »

Mr. North wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:40 pm A not so surprising response considering there is currently no suitable means to prove impairment or any guidelines for them to fall back on. TC, as usual, has been completely absent in providing any sort of progressive, thoughtful leadership. Cannabis will be legal in less than a month and it stands to disrupt both the alcohol and pharmaceutical market in a way most folks haven't even considered. Within a few years it will be everywhere. At that point their "zero tolerance at all times" will be quite inane if not unenforceable. On par with saying today that everyone is to abstain from alcohol "at all times".

Regulations move at a glacial pace especially when grinding against reefer madness. Within 5-10 years though I'm sure most safety related positions will have some sort of benchmark to follow. Until then, the only thing getting high will be my TFSA! Hahaha!
Agree. Even if the implementation of the legalization was extremely restrictive, it would still be more permissive than it is now... I don't see why folks (who want to use) should be upset about that.

As you said, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to stick the paste back in the tube once it's out.

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Victory
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by Victory »

Well suddenly we have something to look forward to at retirement. I wonder if the age 65 advocates will have a change of heart. :D
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AirFrame
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by AirFrame »

Victory wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:55 am Well suddenly we have something to look forward to at retirement. I wonder if the age 65 advocates will have a change of heart. :D
Coincientally that's when you'll need it most... To fight Alzheimer's, Cancer, and any other ailment that it claims to cure...
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HansDietrich
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by HansDietrich »

Interesting points on all sides.

So Marijuana is illegal in Australia, Germany, Hungary, Morocco (Places where AC / Rouge fly to). Under what reasoning will these flight crews get screened? More importantly, HOW DO YOU PROVE IMPAIRMENT?

Alcohol is illegal in Saudi Arabia. Does that mean KLM, Lufthansa, etc crews can't drink anymore? I say those airlines, because AC doesn't fly there.

It's a very blurry scenario. Personally I think that every union is going to sue AC if they will restrict flight crews to consume, while on their time off, a product that is LEGAL. Unless they can prove impairment, there's nothing they can do. Now I'm an older guy, so personally I don't know any pilots that smoke weed, including myself. I like my beer and wine and that's just fine for me. At the expense of sounding like our neighbors to the South, it's not going to be an issue for most guys, but if they take away this "freedom", what will it be next?
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fish4life
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by fish4life »

It’s as simple as when US Customs asks if you have ever smoked weed and you respond honestly with yes followed by a US travel ban. Try explaining to the company that you need to be scheduled for CAN flying only because you like to toke.
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crj_705
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by crj_705 »

I for one being in the airline industry for almost 40 years now will not partake in our new freedom with CDN GOV legislation come Oct 17, 2018.

BUT...and it’s a really BIG BUT...how are corporations involved in the safety of the traveling public going to deal with
‘second hand smoke’ issues??? There has got to be some common sense operational policy put in place IMHO
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pianokeys
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

Post by pianokeys »

WELL see if anyone had wads of cash they could challenge the policy in court. The precedent is already there that random drug testing is invasive as of 2006.

https://www.lavery.ca/DATA/PUBLICATION/ ... esting.pdf

The Supreme Court of Canada said that random alcohol testing is fine because it proves impairment right there, but as for drug testing, it just proves you did it, but whether you're impaired or not is another question. Now, in 2018 this is different as instant drug impaired testing is almost here, but regardless the underlying message of the ruling by the court was that what you do in your time off is your business and if the company punishes you for that its invasive on your privacy.

Oh and there is this case that happened at Suncor too https://www.canadaemploymenthumanrights ... workplace/

But, as I said, even though the precedent is there, who in there right mind wants to blow $50,000+ in legal fees against Big Red just so you can smoke a $10 spliff?
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