Cannabis Policy ???

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Posthumane
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#26 Post by Posthumane » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:06 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:55 am
60 days? That is excessive considering there are a lot of people in this country in positions of responsibility and pilots are being singled out.

But it doesn't surprise me given this government's (and the last government's) propensity to ignore rational and science based decisions when writing (or failing to write) law ie. Duty and Fatigue regulations.

Somebody will challenge it in court if that is indeed true.
I believe the 60 day recommendation, like the RCAF 28 day rule, is not based on the fact that pilots are in more of a position of responsibility than others but rather because of the potential for side effects when exposed to high altitude / low pressure. It is also the case for people exposed to high pressures, such as divers. It is similar to other medications such as amphetamine based ones.
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BlueSkies12
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#27 Post by BlueSkies12 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:53 pm

It's official:

"Responsibilities of Employees Engaged in Safety-Critical Work
Employees engaged in Safety-Critical Work are prohibited from using Cannabis and Illegal Drugs at all times,
even when not On Duty or in the workplace."

I assume pilot is considered "safety critical" :lol:
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#28 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:58 pm

What's the source?
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#29 Post by BlueSkies12 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:08 pm

Air Canada's "Human Resources and Safety Drug and Alcohol Policy"
Revised August 17, effective October 17.
Is that good enough?
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lownslow
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#30 Post by lownslow » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:12 pm

BlueSkies12 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:53 pm
prohibited from using Cannabis and Illegal Drugs at all times, even when not On Duty or in the workplace.
Yikes, so much for my planned observance of the year anniversary since Gord Downie’s passing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_Downie

Too bad, I’m sure it’s what he would have wanted.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#31 Post by Mr. North » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:40 pm

A not so surprising response considering there is currently no suitable means to prove impairment or any guidelines for them to fall back on. TC, as usual, has been completely absent in providing any sort of progressive, thoughtful leadership. Cannabis will be legal in less than a month and it stands to disrupt both the alcohol and pharmaceutical market in a way most folks haven't even considered. Within a few years it will be everywhere. At that point their "zero tolerance at all times" will be quite inane if not unenforceable. On par with saying today that everyone is to abstain from alcohol "at all times".

Regulations move at a glacial pace especially when grinding against reefer madness. Within 5-10 years though I'm sure most safety related positions will have some sort of benchmark to follow. Until then, the only thing getting high will be my TFSA! Hahaha!
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#32 Post by Victory » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:37 am

BlueSkies12 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:53 pm
It's official:

"Responsibilities of Employees Engaged in Safety-Critical Work
Employees engaged in Safety-Critical Work are prohibited from using Cannabis and Illegal Drugs at all times,
even when not On Duty or in the workplace."

I assume pilot is considered "safety critical" :lol:
The ramp guys are considered safety critical too. I'm kind of doubting those guys are going to be following this policy :lol:
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#33 Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:53 am

Victory wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:37 am
BlueSkies12 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:53 pm
It's official:

"Responsibilities of Employees Engaged in Safety-Critical Work
Employees engaged in Safety-Critical Work are prohibited from using Cannabis and Illegal Drugs at all times,
even when not On Duty or in the workplace."

I assume pilot is considered "safety critical" :lol:
The ramp guys are considered safety critical too. I'm kind of doubting those guys are going to be following this policy :lol:
If folks, be they aircrew or ground crew, are observing the rules now (ie abstaining), why would anything change in October if the same restrictions apply??

I don't think a drug problem will develop as a result of the law in our operation, what I am suggesting is that if there IS a problem, it's here NOW.

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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#34 Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:55 am

Mr. North wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:40 pm
A not so surprising response considering there is currently no suitable means to prove impairment or any guidelines for them to fall back on. TC, as usual, has been completely absent in providing any sort of progressive, thoughtful leadership. Cannabis will be legal in less than a month and it stands to disrupt both the alcohol and pharmaceutical market in a way most folks haven't even considered. Within a few years it will be everywhere. At that point their "zero tolerance at all times" will be quite inane if not unenforceable. On par with saying today that everyone is to abstain from alcohol "at all times".

Regulations move at a glacial pace especially when grinding against reefer madness. Within 5-10 years though I'm sure most safety related positions will have some sort of benchmark to follow. Until then, the only thing getting high will be my TFSA! Hahaha!
Agree. Even if the implementation of the legalization was extremely restrictive, it would still be more permissive than it is now... I don't see why folks (who want to use) should be upset about that.

As you said, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to stick the paste back in the tube once it's out.

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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#35 Post by Victory » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:55 am

Well suddenly we have something to look forward to at retirement. I wonder if the age 65 advocates will have a change of heart. :D
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#36 Post by AirFrame » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:21 pm

Victory wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:55 am
Well suddenly we have something to look forward to at retirement. I wonder if the age 65 advocates will have a change of heart. :D
Coincientally that's when you'll need it most... To fight Alzheimer's, Cancer, and any other ailment that it claims to cure...
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#37 Post by HansDietrich » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:00 am

Interesting points on all sides.

So Marijuana is illegal in Australia, Germany, Hungary, Morocco (Places where AC / Rouge fly to). Under what reasoning will these flight crews get screened? More importantly, HOW DO YOU PROVE IMPAIRMENT?

Alcohol is illegal in Saudi Arabia. Does that mean KLM, Lufthansa, etc crews can't drink anymore? I say those airlines, because AC doesn't fly there.

It's a very blurry scenario. Personally I think that every union is going to sue AC if they will restrict flight crews to consume, while on their time off, a product that is LEGAL. Unless they can prove impairment, there's nothing they can do. Now I'm an older guy, so personally I don't know any pilots that smoke weed, including myself. I like my beer and wine and that's just fine for me. At the expense of sounding like our neighbors to the South, it's not going to be an issue for most guys, but if they take away this "freedom", what will it be next?
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#38 Post by fish4life » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:29 am

It’s as simple as when US Customs asks if you have ever smoked weed and you respond honestly with yes followed by a US travel ban. Try explaining to the company that you need to be scheduled for CAN flying only because you like to toke.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#39 Post by crj_705 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 pm

I for one being in the airline industry for almost 40 years now will not partake in our new freedom with CDN GOV legislation come Oct 17, 2018.

BUT...and it’s a really BIG BUT...how are corporations involved in the safety of the traveling public going to deal with
‘second hand smoke’ issues??? There has got to be some common sense operational policy put in place IMHO
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#40 Post by pianokeys » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:09 am

WELL see if anyone had wads of cash they could challenge the policy in court. The precedent is already there that random drug testing is invasive as of 2006.

https://www.lavery.ca/DATA/PUBLICATION/ ... esting.pdf

The Supreme Court of Canada said that random alcohol testing is fine because it proves impairment right there, but as for drug testing, it just proves you did it, but whether you're impaired or not is another question. Now, in 2018 this is different as instant drug impaired testing is almost here, but regardless the underlying message of the ruling by the court was that what you do in your time off is your business and if the company punishes you for that its invasive on your privacy.

Oh and there is this case that happened at Suncor too https://www.canadaemploymenthumanrights ... workplace/

But, as I said, even though the precedent is there, who in there right mind wants to blow $50,000+ in legal fees against Big Red just so you can smoke a $10 spliff?
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#41 Post by Stan Darsh » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:26 am

pianokeys wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:09 am
But, as I said, even though the precedent is there, who in there right mind wants to blow $50,000+ in legal fees against Big Red just so you can smoke a $10 spliff?
Well, most Air Canada employees have a thing called a "union".
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#42 Post by N181CS » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 am

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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#43 Post by TT1900 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:07 am

Comparing the military flying on go/no-go pills to an AC pilot smoking weed is apples to oranges. The military generally has a higher risk tolerance, the pills are not a recreational use, and the approval/issue/use is closely supervised by a flight surgeon. Amphetamines are also an upper, Cannabis on the other hand is a hallucinogen/downer. Very different set of effects. FWIW, in the RCAF the only medication you are approved to take without flight surgeon consult/approval is regular strength Tylenol.

The pressure thing is quite real, though with modern pressurization differentials it’s unlikely to factor heavily unless a rapid decompression occurs. However, I’m sure the airlines are keen to keep their crews top-notch just in case an emergency occurs.

Just because people used to do something hardly makes it safe or intelligent. Time moves on and progress is made. I think taking a conservative approach by airline companies makes sense until more comprehensive research and testing regimes are available.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#44 Post by pianokeys » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:03 am

Stan Darsh wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:26 am
pianokeys wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:09 am
But, as I said, even though the precedent is there, who in there right mind wants to blow $50,000+ in legal fees against Big Red just so you can smoke a $10 spliff?
Well, most Air Canada employees have a thing called a "union".
Yeah Im well aware of the unions AC has. But again, you think the union lawyers are going to go to bat for you so you can light a roach?
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#45 Post by altiplano » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:47 am

pianokeys wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:03 am
Stan Darsh wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:26 am
pianokeys wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:09 am
But, as I said, even though the precedent is there, who in there right mind wants to blow $50,000+ in legal fees against Big Red just so you can smoke a $10 spliff?
Well, most Air Canada employees have a thing called a "union".
Yeah Im well aware of the unions AC has. But again, you think the union lawyers are going to go to bat for you so you can light a roach?
Already are. All the AC unions are pushing back against this. Joint letter was sent this week.

It isn't about being able to smoke a joint or whatever, it's about unilaterally creating policy that limits employees and legal behaviour, outside the workplace, without basis or consult.

You want to limit this? No problem. But some office guy can't just make something up and say this is the way it's going to be.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#46 Post by fish4life » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:01 am

N181CS wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 am

Correct me if I am wrong on this point but I believe a ppl can even have a beer and still go flying so long as they are under the .8 and a cpl can fly (in Canada) with a BAC of .8 or less as long as they meet the bottle to throttle rules?
your wrong, 0.08 (which I'm assuming you meant) is the criminal amount for driving a vehicle, you still need to be free of any impairment if operating an aircraft which I think they deem to be 0.02 or something like that.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#47 Post by Victory » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:09 am

N181CS wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 am
the only real medical value I have seen is for eating issues and sleep.
Not a great argument against since sleep is a MAJOR issue for flight crews. If it wasn't for the (I believe) lingering effects I would use it on my days off to increase sleep as well as relieve stress.

I hope the unions do fight the blanket ban though. At least we might get some concessions for losing our right to do something most of us would never do anyways. The company's argument seems to be that corporations can set rules such as requiring you to wear a uniform which is just inane since you don't wear your uniform on your days off.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#48 Post by N181CS » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:39 am

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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#49 Post by yycflyguy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:45 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:47 am
pianokeys wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:03 am
Stan Darsh wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:26 am


Well, most Air Canada employees have a thing called a "union".
Yeah Im well aware of the unions AC has. But again, you think the union lawyers are going to go to bat for you so you can light a roach?
Joint letter was sent this week.

Tee-hee... joint letter.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#50 Post by Old fella » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:20 am

For all you AC drivers from the 70’s.

http://youtu.be/MNKL9onYB_8
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