Cannabis Policy ???

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Mr. North
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#76 Post by Mr. North » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:59 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:40 pm
]

Former military pilot here.
Thank you for your service.

However, just because you subjected yourself to a life of military discipline doesn't mean the rest of us are required to make the same sacrifices. There is such a thing as life outside work. I'm all for being a professional and showing up fit to fly. But if a company wants to dictate the entirety of my life I should be compensated a good deal more than parking brake on and off.

It is cannabis today but it could very well be alcohol tomorrow. Followed by red meat or sugar, say why don't you wear this fitness tracker? While we're at it lets geotrack your phone, social media, and search history. You don't care because you have nothing to hide right...? I think it's perfectly acceptable to question our orders here. Whether it applies to you or not, any infringement on a pilot's personal life should be challenged, debated, and resolved between parties.

Hello 1984.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#77 Post by Jean-Pierre » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:03 am

I hope it doesn't come out in the world news that Air Canada pilot are fighting for the right to smoke marijuana. The reputation has taken enough hit already.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#78 Post by Outlaw58 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:20 am

All I am saying is Cannabis is illegal now.

Let's open the valve slowly and if it goes well, open it even more, little by little.

It's not even legal yet and folks are already enraged at the possibility that we might not go bleeds to MAX right away! Let's rejoice that we have a new freedom; even if it is heavily restricted, it still is something that we didn't have before.

58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#79 Post by Outlaw58 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:26 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:22 am
Gotcha. You'd rather quit than stand up for yourself and your position.

But I'm not listening to orders from a General here, we are governed by a contract. The company can impose procedures and restrictions for how we do some things at work, operate the aircraft, wear the uniform, etc. But they have no standing in imposing anything beyond the law or the contract outside the workplace.

We'll see what Transport comes up with, if anything, and of the company wants more... it has a cost... there are many things we need to fix.
Way to twist my words.

Get me a fight worth fighting for (this isn't) and poke the military pushover. See what happens.

58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#80 Post by altiplano » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:03 pm

Cannabis is irrelevant. Can you see that?

Fight worth fighting? Is your contract worth fighting for?

This is a business relationship, and a corporation dictating your personal freedom.

It doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter that it was a change in the law.

The corporation will use every bit of leverage they can possibly acquire against your earnings and working conditions.

This is leverage for us. That is all. It has nothing to do with me wanting to smoke pot, which I don't.

The corporation sees the legalization as a problem - but it's their problem, whether optics or liability - and they want a policy banning it outright. I say no problem, but there is a cost to having any say on my personal time, and that cost is that they have to fix some of the problems we have in our contract.

It's the name of the game. Doesn't matter what it is.

I'll scratch yours, you scratch mine.

Giving it away like a bunch of amateurs like we have been doing with everything else is a mistake. This is an opportunity. Don't squander it.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#81 Post by Old fella » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:30 pm

How can a legal activity deemed to be illegal. Is it legal to drink and drive in Canada, the answer is yes. What is not legal is to drive over the prescribed limits as determined by the criminal code. If you do and get caught, charged and convicted, the penalty is severe. Same for consumption of the soon to be legal weed, you have to consume within the legal defined parameters. Nobody has the authority to tell you not to consume either( booze or soon to be legal weed) ever as they are/will be legal.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#82 Post by Outlaw58 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:53 pm

Here is another spin...

Some restaurants attract their clientele with sexy waitresses, some airlines attract their clientele with sober pilots...

How about that?

58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#83 Post by altiplano » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:23 am

You still don't get it. This isn't about sober pilots or cannabis. That's not a problem. Legislation covers that. You don't need blanket policy to meet that.

But to address your comment:
If they want to market an even more limiting policy for their customers, that's their thing, and I'm happy to help - but it's not free to make that imposition.

I'll repeat:
It's not about the subject here, cannabis, it's about your employer making impositions on what you do within the law on your free time.

Your responsibility is to live within the law and report for work fit to fly and do your job. There is no arguing that. But if they want more restriction, beyond whatever is mandated, to make them feel good or make their customers feel good, then that has to be negotiated, as I said I'm happy to help, but there is a cost...
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#84 Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:13 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:23 am
Your responsibility is to live within the law and report for work fit to fly and do your job. There is no arguing that. But if they want more restriction, beyond whatever is mandated, to make them feel good or make their customers feel good, then that has to be negotiated, as I said I'm happy to help, but there is a cost...
How do you feel about the law mandating 8 hrs bottle to throttle and AC requiring 12 hrs?
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Outlaw58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#85 Post by Outlaw58 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:08 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:23 am
You still don't get it. This isn't about sober pilots or cannabis. That's not a problem. Legislation covers that. You don't need blanket policy to meet that.

But to address your comment:
If they want to market an even more limiting policy for their customers, that's their thing, and I'm happy to help - but it's not free to make that imposition.

I'll repeat:
It's not about the subject here, cannabis, it's about your employer making impositions on what you do within the law on your free time.

Your responsibility is to live within the law and report for work fit to fly and do your job. There is no arguing that. But if they want more restriction, beyond whatever is mandated, to make them feel good or make their customers feel good, then that has to be negotiated, as I said I'm happy to help, but there is a cost...
I do get what you're saying. Got it way back from your first intervention.

This is an opportunity to squeeze a few extra bucks at the next contract negotiation. I do get it. But vote time I am NOT going to support the relaxed rules if it means giving anything up for them.

Told you I got it.

58
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#86 Post by altiplano » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:22 am

AuxBatOn wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:13 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:23 am
Your responsibility is to live within the law and report for work fit to fly and do your job. There is no arguing that. But if they want more restriction, beyond whatever is mandated, to make them feel good or make their customers feel good, then that has to be negotiated, as I said I'm happy to help, but there is a cost...
How do you feel about the law mandating 8 hrs bottle to throttle and AC requiring 12 hrs?
12 is what it always has been at AC, or at least for a long time... I do disagree with it - not because I'm looking to drink up to the legal limit, but because it is overreaching and without basis - but those were the terms I joined under, and I'm not interested in spending any bargaining capital to change it.

But when they changed it to the new 20 hour restrictions after the Sunwing guy in Calgary a couple years ago I called bullshit... It should be just to report with a BAC of 0.0 and fit for duty. They didn't think that some would be able to understand that and the "union" is inept.
Outlaw58 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:08 am
I do get what you're saying. Got it way back from your first intervention.

This is an opportunity to squeeze a few extra bucks at the next contract negotiation. I do get it. But vote time I am NOT going to support the relaxed rules if it means giving anything up for them.

Told you I got it.

58
From your statement, I'm really not certain you have "got it"... next contract negotiation? this is happening now and they are taking it. your and my freedom, even if I'm not planning on using this particular freedom, IT'S MINE.

I would never want to give anything up to relax rules like these. But you're supporting giving something up now by allowing the corporation to tighten them for nothing in return, zero, zilch...

We are giving this away, allowing them to take it, when we can extract a gain, even a small one, for it instead...

That's how it works... even if you don't care or think it's a good idea for this particular thing to restrict it... that freedom is ours, don't allow them to take it for free.

Our contract is so far behind - every little bit, every inch counts, and giving away an opportunity like this is a mistake, and sets a bad precident the next time they want to take something of yours.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#87 Post by Outlaw58 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:00 am

I do get it, I know that pilots as a group have a lot of gains to make in order to make it the desirable profession it once was.

Using Cannabis to make that point isn't gaining any traction with me. If I had it my way, it should have remained illegal and it is not like alcohol. If it was, folks would be content to get drunk but it IS different. Effects last longer and are still not well understood. IMHO it doesn't belong in our industry at all, ON or OFF duty.

58

PS: It might also have something to do with the fact that I have 2 young pre-teen. That with this legalization, I have some tough educational talks coming up and that having pilots (just like daddy) that can smoke and is ok is going to make those discussion tougher. I know...my problem, not yours.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#88 Post by altiplano » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:05 am

You are hung up on cannabis still... it's not about that.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#89 Post by Outlaw58 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:07 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:05 am
You are hung up on cannabis still... it's not about that.
I DO GET IT!

But this thread is about Cannabis last I checked.

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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#90 Post by Old fella » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:55 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:05 am
You are hung up on cannabis still... it's not about that.
Jesus H Christ, you airline pilots have been discussing weed as if it was a newfound phenomenon that just appeared, latent prohibitionists , long standing members of MADD who knows. It is To be legal which I do support as a very casual user from years back being around during the Summer of Love. Get over it, it’s done take it off the BBQ.

:weedman: :weedman:
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#91 Post by fish4life » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:14 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:00 am
I do get it, I know that pilots as a group have a lot of gains to make in order to make it the desirable profession it once was.

Using Cannabis to make that point isn't gaining any traction with me. If I had it my way, it should have remained illegal and it is not like alcohol. If it was, folks would be content to get drunk but it IS different. Effects last longer and are still not well understood. IMHO it doesn't belong in our industry at all, ON or OFF duty.

58

PS: It might also have something to do with the fact that I have 2 young pre-teen. That with this legalization, I have some tough educational talks coming up and that having pilots (just like daddy) that can smoke and is ok is going to make those discussion tougher. I know...my problem, not yours.
I think the bigger issue if you have teens is cocaine, a lot of people I talk to have no idea how widespread the issue is and just because it is illegal doesn’t change the fact that probably half the hospitality industry does it. Also coke and alcohol go together in most party situations, weed doesn’t tend to go into that same realm of a “party” drug which alcohol is.
Just take at the statistics of how binge drinking is wayyy up amoung youth, binge drinking is probably worse for the body than weed.
Personally I don’t smoke it but I think it’s a good thing it’s legal so the government can tax those who do, while we are at it we might as well legalize cocaine at this point to so you can tax it.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#92 Post by digits_ » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:47 am

To the pilots who are worried about extra restrictions by the employer: are you waiting to try weed until it is legal?

Or are you using it already?

If it's he second option, any restriction by the employer is a moot point, as you have no objections doing it illegally...

I like the "use it as a bargaining chip" strategy though!
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#93 Post by altiplano » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:55 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:07 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:05 am
You are hung up on cannabis still... it's not about that.
I DO GET IT!

But this thread is about Cannabis last I checked.

58
No it's about POLICY.

Anyway. Despite the Zappa quote, I hope you'll consider we need to hold the line on the company imposing anything on us without our consult.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#94 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:59 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:55 am
Outlaw58 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:07 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:05 am
You are hung up on cannabis still... it's not about that.
I DO GET IT!

But this thread is about Cannabis last I checked.

58
No it's about POLICY.

Anyway. Despite the Zappa quote, I hope you'll consider we need to hold the line on the company imposing anything on us without our consult.
Give Air Canada management a cookie....and they are going to want a glass of milk.

Agreed altiplano.

S.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#95 Post by Victory » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:24 pm

If Marijuana is banned then so should alcohol. And why shouldn't it? It impairs performance for safety critical jobs long after consumption. This is scientifically proven. I hope that's where the policy is going if it is fought by the unions.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#96 Post by skypirate88 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:54 pm

It appears that WestJet has also updated their substance policy. It mirrors the policy published by AC.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.4856229
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Victory
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#97 Post by Victory » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:03 pm

Honestly I don't see how police can be allowed to use but pilots can't.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#98 Post by N181CS » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:43 pm

Well according to the google news feeds the cops dream of puffing and policing is up in smoke for now. Some forces are saying 24h prior to reporting, others 28 days and one saying No Bueno period.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#99 Post by av8ts » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:58 am

TC has said there is a zero tolerance policy for pilots in order to maintain a valid medical. Not sure exactly what that means
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#100 Post by Victory » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:16 am

Where did they say that?
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