Career First Officer at AC by design?

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Lost in Saigon
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Lost in Saigon » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:25 pm

This is a typical 12 year pay B777 pay stub. Some B777 FOs are slightly higher because they are on "grandfathered" pay from the previous contract.

This year end stub reflects a November YYZ-HKG overtime trip and another OT trip earlier in the year. Those that do a lot of overtime can make a lot more.


pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg
pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg (212.98 KiB) Viewed 4090 times
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by atphat » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:02 pm

No ESOP eh? Where’s your faith?

:lol:
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:19 pm

That HKG trip on premium puts a nice cherry on top for your year!
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:21 pm

Line 3 "Pilots flying pay" shows YTD 765 hours and and $192,257. Thats $251.30/hour. How do you achieve that? Year 12 777 FO pay is $180.28 day and $197.49 night. Add $6.55 international pay and even a 100% night and international schedule would only get you $204.04/hour.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:06 pm

Joe Blow Schmo wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:21 pm
Line 3 "Pilots flying pay" shows YTD 765 hours and and $192,257. Thats $251.30/hour. How do you achieve that? Year 12 777 FO pay is $180.28 day and $197.49 night. Add $6.55 international pay and even a 100% night and international schedule would only get you $204.04/hour.
It just always says that. Mine is 765 too.

it's like an accounting thing or something...
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Lost in Saigon » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:10 pm

Trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt. They pays me the money, and I don't try to figure it out....
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Puffpuffpass » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:46 am

Lost in Saigon wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:25 pm
This is a typical 12 year pay B777 pay stub. Some B777 FOs are slightly higher because they are on "grandfathered" pay from the previous contract.

This year end stub reflects a November YYZ-HKG overtime trip and another OT trip earlier in the year. Those that do a lot of overtime can make a lot more.



pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg
This is what every pilot who bid the 777 F/O, while in flat pay, needs to have a good long look at.....because you will be making nowhere near that, enjoy chatting with the crew about there boats and Porsche's while you hope they cover the bus tip on arrival.......thats a $200K seat that you just offered to do for $60G's. Literally every crew member on the plane will be making as much as you....most in the back end will be making more than you on an Asia pairing. Way to go !!!
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Redwine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:39 pm

Not to mention a Southwest newhire makes more than a 5 year pilot at AC and works fewer hours. Pathetic. As is that pay stub above. An American 787 FO makes 350.000 US ~(464.000CAD) and has more time off and better working condiotions.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Shady McSly » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:28 pm

Canada has pretty good food banks though..
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by danield » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:33 pm

Puffpuffpass wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:46 am
Lost in Saigon wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:25 pm
This is a typical 12 year pay B777 pay stub. Some B777 FOs are slightly higher because they are on "grandfathered" pay from the previous contract.

This year end stub reflects a November YYZ-HKG overtime trip and another OT trip earlier in the year. Those that do a lot of overtime can make a lot more.



pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg
This is what every pilot who bid the 777 F/O, while in flat pay, needs to have a good long look at.....because you will be making nowhere near that, enjoy chatting with the crew about there boats and Porsche's while you hope they cover the bus tip on arrival.......thats a $200K seat that you just offered to do for $60G's. Literally every crew member on the plane will be making as much as you....most in the back end will be making more than you on an Asia pairing. Way to go !!!
My Year 3 flat pay yielded 113k last year with a little bit of overtime and I made over 80k my first year and 90k my 2nd in the right seat of the EMJ. I have recently "offered" to take a WB FO position with the company and am happy with my decision. I work half as much as I did on the narrow body and I will gladly collect my 200k in 11 months time as a block holder while my colleagues elect to sit on reserve at the bottom of the 320CA list.

Also, for somebody on flat pay who does NOT want to work any overtime a quick way to make an extra $600/month net (equivalent to $900 gross, or $10,800 annually) is to bid a WB position and collect the additional perdiems.

Faulting somebody for solitifying a guaranteed pay raise in 4 years while the position is available to them is exactly what is wrong with Canadian Pilots! Flat pay was voted on and passed by Canadian Pilots! I am just doing the best I can with the hand I was dealt. I still feel very fortunate to be here and will continue to fight to increase wages and working conditions for everyone, including those hired after me. I did not invent Flat pay, I am simply managing it with the knowledge that my pay will double in 11 months time.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by flashheart » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:40 pm

Redwine wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:39 pm
Not to mention a Southwest newhire makes more than a 5 year pilot at AC and works fewer hours. Pathetic. As is that pay stub above. An American 787 FO makes 350.000 US ~(464.000CAD) and has more time off and better working condiotions.
This is impossible.

New hire Sun Wing pilots make $150-200k per year??

Even a 5th year RP who would be working max 9 days per month would be in the low 100s...

Try again Troll
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by danield » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:52 pm

flashheart wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:40 pm
Redwine wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:39 pm
Not to mention a Southwest newhire makes more than a 5 year pilot at AC and works fewer hours. Pathetic. As is that pay stub above. An American 787 FO makes 350.000 US ~(464.000CAD) and has more time off and better working condiotions.
This is impossible.

New hire Sun Wing pilots make $150-200k per year??

Even a 5th year RP who would be working max 9 days per month would be in the low 100s...

Try again Troll
He said "Southwest" not "Sunwing."
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flashheart
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by flashheart » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:55 pm

danield wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:52 pm
flashheart wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:40 pm
Redwine wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:39 pm
Not to mention a Southwest newhire makes more than a 5 year pilot at AC and works fewer hours. Pathetic. As is that pay stub above. An American 787 FO makes 350.000 US ~(464.000CAD) and has more time off and better working condiotions.
This is impossible.

New hire Sun Wing pilots make $150-200k per year??

Even a 5th year RP who would be working max 9 days per month would be in the low 100s...

Try again Troll
He said "Southwest" not "Sunwing."
ahh...then in that case...yes it is pathetic
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:24 am

danield wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:33 pm
Puffpuffpass wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:46 am
Lost in Saigon wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:25 pm
This is a typical 12 year pay B777 pay stub. Some B777 FOs are slightly higher because they are on "grandfathered" pay from the previous contract.

This year end stub reflects a November YYZ-HKG overtime trip and another OT trip earlier in the year. Those that do a lot of overtime can make a lot more.



pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg
This is what every pilot who bid the 777 F/O, while in flat pay, needs to have a good long look at.....because you will be making nowhere near that, enjoy chatting with the crew about there boats and Porsche's while you hope they cover the bus tip on arrival.......thats a $200K seat that you just offered to do for $60G's. Literally every crew member on the plane will be making as much as you....most in the back end will be making more than you on an Asia pairing. Way to go !!!
My Year 3 flat pay yielded 113k last year with a little bit of overtime and I made over 80k my first year and 90k my 2nd in the right seat of the EMJ. I have recently "offered" to take a WB FO position with the company and am happy with my decision. I work half as much as I did on the narrow body and I will gladly collect my 200k in 11 months time as a block holder while my colleagues elect to sit on reserve at the bottom of the 320CA list.

Also, for somebody on flat pay who does NOT want to work any overtime a quick way to make an extra $600/month net (equivalent to $900 gross, or $10,800 annually) is to bid a WB position and collect the additional perdiems.

Faulting somebody for solitifying a guaranteed pay raise in 4 years while the position is available to them is exactly what is wrong with Canadian Pilots! Flat pay was voted on and passed by Canadian Pilots! I am just doing the best I can with the hand I was dealt. I still feel very fortunate to be here and will continue to fight to increase wages and working conditions for everyone, including those hired after me. I did not invent Flat pay, I am simply managing it with the knowledge that my pay will double in 11 months time.
A couple of counterpoints.

First. Per diems are not income. They are not salary. Yes, you can use them to maximize your income but never forget; they are a re-imbursement of your costs while away from home generating revenue for your employer.

Second. As a year 3 flat pay pilot - do you really expect to be a block holder in 11 months? Friends with 8+ years only get the occasional block on the B777. I think you better prepare yourself for years of reserve duty.

Third. Although some of your seniority colleagues have bid 320CA and will sit reserve (probably the same expectation that a year 3 WB FO) at least they are released from flat pay and go to Captain rates.

Four. My personal opinion is that guys doing VO have helped put downward pressure on our hourly wages for every position. This is very important: WORKING MORE HOURS IS NOT A PAY RAISE.

I respect that you had nothing to do with this atrocious WAWCON contract that we passed by an unimpressive 53% but it is not right that we now have the worlds cheapest B777/B787 FOS, are the only airline that uses an RP position instead of FOs, and that we are known as the Pirates of the Atlantic for doing crossings with only 2 pilots. Meanwhile, the company has enjoyed the most profitable 3 years (perhaps ever) without recognizing the sacrifices pilots have made over the past 15 years.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by danield » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:24 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:24 am
danield wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:33 pm
Puffpuffpass wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:46 am


This is what every pilot who bid the 777 F/O, while in flat pay, needs to have a good long look at.....because you will be making nowhere near that, enjoy chatting with the crew about there boats and Porsche's while you hope they cover the bus tip on arrival.......thats a $200K seat that you just offered to do for $60G's. Literally every crew member on the plane will be making as much as you....most in the back end will be making more than you on an Asia pairing. Way to go !!!
My Year 3 flat pay yielded 113k last year with a little bit of overtime and I made over 80k my first year and 90k my 2nd in the right seat of the EMJ. I have recently "offered" to take a WB FO position with the company and am happy with my decision. I work half as much as I did on the narrow body and I will gladly collect my 200k in 11 months time as a block holder while my colleagues elect to sit on reserve at the bottom of the 320CA list.

Also, for somebody on flat pay who does NOT want to work any overtime a quick way to make an extra $600/month net (equivalent to $900 gross, or $10,800 annually) is to bid a WB position and collect the additional perdiems.

Faulting somebody for solitifying a guaranteed pay raise in 4 years while the position is available to them is exactly what is wrong with Canadian Pilots! Flat pay was voted on and passed by Canadian Pilots! I am just doing the best I can with the hand I was dealt. I still feel very fortunate to be here and will continue to fight to increase wages and working conditions for everyone, including those hired after me. I did not invent Flat pay, I am simply managing it with the knowledge that my pay will double in 11 months time.
A couple of counterpoints.

First. Per diems are not income. They are not salary. Yes, you can use them to maximize your income but never forget; they are a re-imbursement of your costs while away from home generating revenue for your employer.

Second. As a year 3 flat pay pilot - do you really expect to be a block holder in 11 months? Friends with 8+ years only get the occasional block on the B777. I think you better prepare yourself for years of reserve duty.

Third. Although some of your seniority colleagues have bid 320CA and will sit reserve (probably the same expectation that a year 3 WB FO) at least they are released from flat pay and go to Captain rates.

Four. My personal opinion is that guys doing VO have helped put downward pressure on our hourly wages for every position. This is very important: WORKING MORE HOURS IS NOT A PAY RAISE.

I respect that you had nothing to do with this atrocious WAWCON contract that we passed by an unimpressive 53% but it is not right that we now have the worlds cheapest B777/B787 FOS, are the only airline that uses an RP position instead of FOs, and that we are known as the Pirates of the Atlantic for doing crossings with only 2 pilots. Meanwhile, the company has enjoyed the most profitable 3 years (perhaps ever) without recognizing the sacrifices pilots have made over the past 15 years.
First off, I am already a block holder this month, may have been an anomaly however when all pilots are trained I will have enough below me to be a junior blockholder or senior reserve in my position. Nonetheless, reserve on this airplane is infinitely better than what I experienced as a blockholder on the EMJ at 50%.

Second, those who bid the 320CA position close to my seniority are only now being trained, after about a 3 month training process they will be pay activated.. so sure, they will receive 8 months of formula pay more than I will.. I can stomach that knowing that I am at home reading the newspaper most of the month.

Back to your previous post. Again, I did not volunteer to a 200k position for 60k. I simply paved the way for the next several years of my career with a balance of pay and lifestyle, and this position was best suited for that. Pilots are quick to point the finger at eachother, but everybody's situation is different. I was not on property when 4 year flat pay was voted on, nor was I around for DC pension, Rouge, Sky Regional, and every other wonderful gesture the previous generation of pilots left me to deal with. So that is what I am doing, dealing with the hand I was dealt. I still feel fortunate to be here and I will do the best I can to get the most out of my career.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by atphat » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:35 am

danield wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:24 am
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:24 am
danield wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:33 pm


My Year 3 flat pay yielded 113k last year with a little bit of overtime and I made over 80k my first year and 90k my 2nd in the right seat of the EMJ. I have recently "offered" to take a WB FO position with the company and am happy with my decision. I work half as much as I did on the narrow body and I will gladly collect my 200k in 11 months time as a block holder while my colleagues elect to sit on reserve at the bottom of the 320CA list.

Also, for somebody on flat pay who does NOT want to work any overtime a quick way to make an extra $600/month net (equivalent to $900 gross, or $10,800 annually) is to bid a WB position and collect the additional perdiems.

Faulting somebody for solitifying a guaranteed pay raise in 4 years while the position is available to them is exactly what is wrong with Canadian Pilots! Flat pay was voted on and passed by Canadian Pilots! I am just doing the best I can with the hand I was dealt. I still feel very fortunate to be here and will continue to fight to increase wages and working conditions for everyone, including those hired after me. I did not invent Flat pay, I am simply managing it with the knowledge that my pay will double in 11 months time.
A couple of counterpoints.

First. Per diems are not income. They are not salary. Yes, you can use them to maximize your income but never forget; they are a re-imbursement of your costs while away from home generating revenue for your employer.

Second. As a year 3 flat pay pilot - do you really expect to be a block holder in 11 months? Friends with 8+ years only get the occasional block on the B777. I think you better prepare yourself for years of reserve duty.

Third. Although some of your seniority colleagues have bid 320CA and will sit reserve (probably the same expectation that a year 3 WB FO) at least they are released from flat pay and go to Captain rates.

Four. My personal opinion is that guys doing VO have helped put downward pressure on our hourly wages for every position. This is very important: WORKING MORE HOURS IS NOT A PAY RAISE.

I respect that you had nothing to do with this atrocious WAWCON contract that we passed by an unimpressive 53% but it is not right that we now have the worlds cheapest B777/B787 FOS, are the only airline that uses an RP position instead of FOs, and that we are known as the Pirates of the Atlantic for doing crossings with only 2 pilots. Meanwhile, the company has enjoyed the most profitable 3 years (perhaps ever) without recognizing the sacrifices pilots have made over the past 15 years.
First off, I am already a block holder this month, may have been an anomaly however when all pilots are trained I will have enough below me to be a junior blockholder or senior reserve in my position. Nonetheless, reserve on this airplane is infinitely better than what I experienced as a blockholder on the EMJ at 50%.

Second, those who bid the 320CA position close to my seniority are only now being trained, after about a 3 month training process they will be pay activated.. so sure, they will receive 8 months of formula pay more than I will.. I can stomach that knowing that I am at home reading the newspaper most of the month.

Back to your previous post. Again, I did not volunteer to a 200k position for 60k. I simply paved the way for the next several years of my career with a balance of pay and lifestyle, and this position was best suited for that. Pilots are quick to point the finger at eachother, but everybody's situation is different. I was not on property when 4 year flat pay was voted on, nor was I around for DC pension, Rouge, Sky Regional, and every other wonderful gesture the previous generation of pilots left me to deal with. So that is what I am doing, dealing with the hand I was dealt. I still feel fortunate to be here and I will do the best I can to get the most out of my career.
It is no ones business but your own what you choose to do with your career.

I hope you enjoy your new position.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Daniel Cooper » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:48 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:24 am
we are known as the Pirates of the Atlantic for doing crossings with only 2 pilots.
I pray Air Canada does not have an accident operating like this. The fatigue levels of a crew landing in Europe after flying all night must be the equivalent of more than a couple pints of Guinness.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:19 pm

Daniel Cooper wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:48 am
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:24 am
we are known as the Pirates of the Atlantic for doing crossings with only 2 pilots.
I pray Air Canada does not have an accident operating like this. The fatigue levels of a crew landing in Europe after flying all night must be the equivalent of more than a couple pints of Guinness.
We already have.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tired-pi ... -1.1139316
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:46 pm

danield wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:24 am

First off, I am already a block holder this month, may have been an anomaly however when all pilots are trained I will have enough below me to be a junior blockholder or senior reserve in my position. Nonetheless, reserve on this airplane is infinitely better than what I experienced as a blockholder on the EMJ at 50%.

Second, those who bid the 320CA position close to my seniority are only now being trained, after about a 3 month training process they will be pay activated.. so sure, they will receive 8 months of formula pay more than I will.. I can stomach that knowing that I am at home reading the newspaper most of the month.

Back to your previous post. Again, I did not volunteer to a 200k position for 60k. I simply paved the way for the next several years of my career with a balance of pay and lifestyle, and this position was best suited for that. Pilots are quick to point the finger at eachother, but everybody's situation is different. I was not on property when 4 year flat pay was voted on, nor was I around for DC pension, Rouge, Sky Regional, and every other wonderful gesture the previous generation of pilots left me to deal with. So that is what I am doing, dealing with the hand I was dealt. I still feel fortunate to be here and I will do the best I can to get the most out of my career.

January tends to be an anomaly with low DBMs and senior pilots taking vacation. Just wanted to point out that it isn't people below you that determines a block... it's fewer people above. Still don't see how 3 years on property can get you a consistent WB block. If you do - fantastic.

CAs are also retroactively paid after completing their training.

I also did not say you volunteered for the position but it doesn't change the fact that AC now has the worlds cheapest B777 FOs in the world. I think you have confused my post with puffpuffpass. Maybe there is sensitivity because you know that anyone in your situation is under-compensated. While you didn't have a say in the conditions, it is not good for the industry as a whole. FWIW 44%-ish of the membership knew to vote NO for some of these reasons. While on your overseas pairings perhaps you'd like to ask your CA or senior FO why they thought the past contracts were good enough to vote YES to.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:28 pm

danield wrote:First off, I am already a block holder this month, may have been an anomaly however when all pilots are trained I will have enough below me to be a junior blockholder or senior reserve in my position.
I'm glad everything is working out. The overseas operation is generally a great part of the airline. You'll enjoy the aircraft and routes. WB reserve isn't that bad except maybe the occasional midnight re-crew or auggie call out when a late departure goes mechanical... and the upgrade isn't for everyone either only a couple years in.

I'm guessing you're YUL 330 if you're holding a block at your seniority... The 330 is an anomaly in the airline and was a bit of a BS crewing shift that was maybe before your time here. I predict with the new 330s coming, we'll see another 330 base reopened and some positions reduced out of YUL within the year... so watch out for that... moving playing field and all around here.

So for the sake of accuracy, Junior pilot in the airline is#4000+? What's a 3rd year guy at? 3300ish?

Junior 777 FO blockholder this month is seniority #2100s in YYZ... In YVR it's at #1800s...

That's how many years? 12-13 for a block? There aren't any flat pay blockholders on the 777 this month and I doubt there will be anytime soon.

Same with the 787, junior blockholders are 8-10 years.

YYZ 787 #2400s
YVR 787 #2100s
YUL 787 #2400s

Anyway... that's the landscape. Junior WB FO in 5 out of 6 positions is going to be a long time to a block.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Observer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:13 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:24 am


I respect that you had nothing to do with this atrocious WAWCON contract that we passed by an unimpressive 53%
Facts! We don’t need no stinking facts!

59.3%

If you don’t vote, you don’t count.

F04CDB42-E73D-4335-9652-F039E1E2B5FF.jpeg
F04CDB42-E73D-4335-9652-F039E1E2B5FF.jpeg (444.18 KiB) Viewed 1506 times
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:03 pm

59% of voters isn't any better.

Default vote should be set to "No" for anyone that doesn't take the time to vote yes/no or conciously abstain.

Only 53% of AC pilots voted yes, that's a fact.

KV himself said he only needed 50%+1 and that was his target... Contracts should targeted to be passing with an overwhelming majority.

We shouldn't be holding negots and votes in the summer either, when everyone is working to the max or lucky enough to get away on vacation. It's a tremendous effort to find and absorb all the concessions they are making. They don't even release the full language and run the vote for only 10 days or so while vetting questions they will take on the webinars, shutting down 2 forums, and the membership directory.

They are counting on our level of disengagement to slide this shit through.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Victory » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:06 pm

Looks like junior blockholder is 3250.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Observer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:42 pm

altiplano wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:03 pm
59% of voters isn't any better.

Default vote should be set to "No" for anyone that doesn't take the time to vote yes/no or conciously abstain.
Well that’s an in interesting take on the democratic voting process. You should propose that at our next constitutional amendment conference. Why stop there? Default vote should be Conversative if you don’t vote. Or maybe Liberal... Hmmm... But you know how they would have voted, right?
altiplano wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:03 pm
Only 53% of AC pilots voted yes, that's a fact.
Sure, and only 36.8% of AC pilots voted against it. Feel better? Worse?
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by dumbbell daddy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:25 am

What's with the gloating? Isn't the 777 FO position known as the 'trouble maker' position? Guys who failed their upgrade, too scared to do it, or just don't fit in anywhere else in the company?
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