AC New hires please use your WB bid

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HpLpFeather
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AC New hires please use your WB bid

Post by HpLpFeather »

.....And become the lowest paid WB FO’s in the world. Someone please give me an upside to this.
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Last edited by HpLpFeather on Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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HansDietrich
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by HansDietrich »

It's so sad, I don't have any words. This is the "national" airline of Canada; one of the most expensive countries in the world. Anybody (pilot) who justifies this is an idiot.
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RRJetPilot
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by RRJetPilot »

haha and sit reserve for the next 3-4 years. what a joke
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Victory
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Victory »

The only upside I can think of is getting the type rating and getting out.
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iflyroads
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by iflyroads »

Victory wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:43 pm
The only upside I can think of is getting the type rating and getting out.
Which rarely happens.
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Duke Point
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Duke Point »

AC is reaping what they've sown with crappy 4 year flat pay and this "course right" BS.

The plea was a tad pathetic.

Why anyone would be anything other than an RP or a NB Skipper for the first 4 years is beyond my understanding.


For the record, United pilots earn nearly 3.5x an Air Canada pilot in their second year. No one in the world forces new hires to accept flat pay for as long as AC.

DP.
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groundpilot
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by groundpilot »

That is right folks...

Air Canada did such a good job negotiating a pilot contract at such low levels that now they cant even crew Boeing 777 FO positions
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by aerodude »

groundpilot wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:44 pm
That is right folks...

Air Canada did such a good job negotiating a pilot contract at such low levels that now they cant even crew Boeing 777 FO positions
Such a dilemma for pilots on flat salary.
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skybaron
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by skybaron »

groundpilot wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:44 pm
That is right folks...

Air Canada did such a good job negotiating a pilot contract at such low levels that now they cant even crew Boeing 777 FO positions
BINGO.
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Inverted2
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Inverted2 »

Doesn't matter. They could pay literally next to nothing and still have hundreds of applicants jumping in line.
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Lightchop
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Lightchop »

If you're an AC pilot and you think this is silly, then speak up! Go to your local meetings. Make a motion that your reps must bring forward a solution to fixing the starting pay at your next opener.

However, I'd wager no one will because AC has always had a contract that is there to protect the old Sr. pilots and by spending capital on new hire pay they will have less to spend on themselves.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Lightchop »

Inverted2 wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:37 pm
Doesn't matter. They could pay literally next to nothing and still have hundreds of applicants jumping in line.
Times are changing though. I'd say it's only around 50/50 now when I talk to other pilots and ask if their plan is to go to AC. Many people like the senior regional life, others are happy to work at places like SW/AT or similar.

AC is a good job in the long run but they really need to fix a significant amount of things to make it a proper career contract. Career meaning from beginning to end, not year 5 to end.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Boreas »

HpLpFeather wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:28 pm
.....And become the lowest paid WB FO’s in the world. Someone please give me an upside to this.
Pretty sure FOs at Air Canada are the lowest paid pilots of any "national carrier", WB or not.
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fish4life
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by fish4life »

Year 1 flair 737 FO for 2019 is $67.89.... without having current AC rates in front of me it’s probably close to $10/hr more than a AC 777 FO
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by 98 Corolla »

aerodude wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:48 pm
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You're leaving out how much that narrow body Captain has to work, the mount of sectors they need to fly, they'll likely be on reserve as well, pressure of being a captain, losing half that money to taxes, etc.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Dry Guy »

The baby boomer generation screwed the younger generations in so many ways. Situations like this are not unique to Air Canada.

I wonder what it will be like sharing the flight deck and swapping legs with someone that makes 6 six times as much as you and owns multiple properties and luxury vehicles while you rent someone's basement and take the bus to work.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by tdp19 »

If Air Canada made Wide Body F/O the same status (get off flat pay) as a narrow body captain they would have no problem crewing the 777/787. To elaborate, if you bid widebody f/o it would get you off of 4 year flat pay just like going captain gets you off flat pay. I KNOW it will never happen because they don't have pay scales for anything year 1-4 other than the god awful flat pay. Would alleviate a lot of their crewing issues on widebody going forward
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by altiplano »

Dry Guy wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:28 am
The baby boomer generation screwed the younger generations in so many ways. Situations like this are not unique to Air Canada.

I wonder what it will be like sharing the flight deck and swapping legs with someone that makes 6 six times as much as you and owns multiple properties and luxury vehicles while you rent someone's basement and take the bus to work.
They're fighting for fly to 70 now!

Apparently a grievance has been filed.

5 more years at the trough...

If an arbitrator or the feds say AC has to make reasonable accommodation for these guys to fly all domestic schedules... or if the FAA/ICAO open it up past 65, it will happen immediately...
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by teacher »

tdp19 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:45 am
If Air Canada made Wide Body F/O the same status (get off flat pay) as a narrow body captain they would have no problem crewing the 777/787. To elaborate, if you bid widebody f/o it would get you off of 4 year flat pay just like going captain gets you off flat pay. I KNOW it will never happen because they don't have pay scales for anything year 1-4 other than the god awful flat pay. Would alleviate a lot of their crewing issues on widebody going forward
Why in the world should a WB FO get off flat pay?!?!?! This thought that flying a WB is some how harder and worth more than a narrow body is mind boggling. Less work and more pay. Further more IMHO no WB FO (outside of flat pay) should EVER make more than NB captain of the same seniority. The responsibilities do not compare.

The reason these WB FO spots are going Junior is lifestyle plain and simple. Junior WB means reserve, no 16 day cap and junior for YEARS. That's why nobody wants it. Nothing to do with pay. Perhaps if it paid more people would take the lifestyle hit for cash but I reiterate, this is a lifestyle issue.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by groundpilot »

teacher wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:19 am
tdp19 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:45 am
If Air Canada made Wide Body F/O the same status (get off flat pay) as a narrow body captain they would have no problem crewing the 777/787. To elaborate, if you bid widebody f/o it would get you off of 4 year flat pay just like going captain gets you off flat pay. I KNOW it will never happen because they don't have pay scales for anything year 1-4 other than the god awful flat pay. Would alleviate a lot of their crewing issues on widebody going forward
Why in the world should a WB FO get off flat pay?!?!?! This thought that flying a WB is some how harder and worth more than a narrow body is mind boggling. Less work and more pay. Further more IMHO no WB FO (outside of flat pay) should EVER make more than NB captain of the same seniority. The responsibilities do not compare.

The reason these WB FO spots are going Junior is lifestyle plain and simple. Junior WB means reserve, no 16 day cap and junior for YEARS. That's why nobody wants it. Nothing to do with pay. Perhaps if it paid more people would take the lifestyle hit for cash but I reiterate, this is a lifestyle issue.
While I agree the responsibilities don’t compare, it is comical to think a pilot would defend a 4 years flat pay system. 4 years is a long time.

What is also comical is how when you look at the B777 FO list, that is where you will find the pilots who couldn’t upgrade. Many of these pilots are “special” and probably wouldn’t be my choice for flying my family. But yet they are “entitled “ to top end pay and make more than year 10 Captains on the Embrear, A320 and B737.

The less talented pilots work less to make more. Welcome to cronyism

But hey, keep defending that flat pay pal
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by Stan Darsh »

teacher wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:19 am

The reason these WB FO spots are going Junior is lifestyle plain and simple. Junior WB means reserve, no 16 day cap and junior for YEARS. That's why nobody wants it. Nothing to do with pay. Perhaps if it paid more people would take the lifestyle hit for cash but I reiterate, this is a lifestyle issue.
Pretty much. Less than a year seniority as a NB FO and I'm in the top 1/3 at my base which means I pick my days off, OT in the busy season and I can even get certain pairings I want all while capped at 16 days. Sure, I'd love to be flying overseas and I'd be OK with PoR when off the flat pay, but I'm past the age of making lifestyle concessions for the work. We're just playing with the hand we're dealt right now.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by atphat »

I feel bad for the new hires that will be forced to use their WB FO bid in pit while on flat pay. Which will definitely happen eventually if the spots are not filled.

Don’t expect it to change though. Welcome to AC. If you’re junior don’t expect anyone to care about you. Especially your fellow pilots.
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by rudder »

tdp19 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:45 am
If Air Canada made Wide Body F/O the same status (get off flat pay) as a narrow body captain they would have no problem crewing the 777/787. To elaborate, if you bid widebody f/o it would get you off of 4 year flat pay just like going captain gets you off flat pay. I KNOW it will never happen because they don't have pay scales for anything year 1-4 other than the god awful flat pay. Would alleviate a lot of their crewing issues on widebody going forward
Apparently new-hire freezes are being lifted in hopes of filling WB vacancies in YVR/YYZ. I am guessing AC is hoping some current type rated RP’s will bid.

As for your suggestion - makes perfect sense. Perhaps go one step further: flat pay limited to either 12 or 24 months.
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mmm..bacon
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by mmm..bacon »

I foresee another line/angle that people could add to their covering letters in their application to AC! 8). “I’d be more than happy to work as a w/b FO were AC to hire me.” Etc...
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Re: AC New hires please us your WB bid

Post by altiplano »

I'm not defending flat pay, or the seniors at the trough, but I think it's important to understand where flat pay came from... it wasn't only selling out the new guys when they did the 4 year pay rate.

It was ACPA Leadership and Negotiation team's tremendous shortsightedness and lack of situational awareness. It is the continuation of ideas that our contact has to be a zero-sum, give-to-get, quid pro quo entity.

When the 4 year pay first came in it was roughly a wash in terms of total/average compensation paid out in the first 4 years.

Everyone joined on 2 year flat pay as an RP or Embraer FO. In years 3 & 4 you went into the "Pay Group", a handful would get out of the PG and onto formula pay on the 320 every bid, but the large majority of 4 year and less were in the PG... the idea of a new hire or junior 777 FO... hadn't ever happened... Wasn't conceivable to ACPA... Junior 767 FO was probably about 10 years seniority, closer to 15 years for junior 777 FO.

ACPA looked at the 2 year flat pay (that was truly flat, about $3000/month, there was no OT pay, no premiums, it was the same amount every month) and traded away year 3 & 4 PG/320 formula pay to raise up the first 2 and open opportunities to earn more, premiums, OT, etc...

Of course the company had the data, they knew the real fleet plans, they knew the crewing projections, they knew the retirements, they knew they would have junior WB FOs within a few years... and this was a big gain for them. But our guys costed it, and traded it away like it was a zero-sum transaction looking at the past and not the future.

That's a trend at ACPA, EVERY TIME they trade something quid-pro-quo, we are made the fools. The company pivots, adjusts, knows the real score and our side of the "gain" is gone, while their benefit multiplies.

Fix 2 year flat by combining it with year 3/4. Gone.
Fix EMJ FO pay by grouping it with RP Formula. Gone.
Fix EMJ CA pay by robbing from WB FO pay. Gone.
Pay cut to get us through CCAA. Gone.
Save the pension by removing indexing. Gone.
Save the pension by paying more. Over funded and still gone.
Rouge 50 fin cap. Gone.
RRA need an Airbus flying. Gone.
Draft pay? Diminished.
Cargojet MOA. Gone and they are still doing the flying.
On and on...

I worry EVERY TIME ACPA gets in a room or box suite at the ACC, sorry Scotia Arena, with company brass...

I hope the attitude changes that we need to give-to-get... We're long overdue for gains across the board in this association.
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