schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:17 am
The question that births from your question is; what defines best? I think that is individually based, but one would imagine that pay is above average, scheduled with multiple crew and interesting layovers. There are a few flight departments I can think of with that setup, but openings are usually filled very quickly.
There is no doubt within the scope of a national organization over a 30+ year career that one will find their niche. The next question therefore is how do we solve the first 4 years within said organization so it is never the punchline within said industry, without disrupting the careers of those with 20-30 years within said organization.
S.
Well, that's just it. What is best when it comes to flying jobs?
Solving this first 4 year pay problem would be great. Is this the biggest issue inside AC that needs to be solved? I am not so sure. For some reason everyone outside AC is hung up on that particular issue though.
I am sure all those pilots past year 4 are finding out there are other 'fish to fry', likely issues regarding reserve, but for everyone else in this industry, ACs 'Navajo captain' starting wages affect ALL salaries by dragging down industry averages. It's not the charter companies, or LCCs and ULCCs, dragging down the industry, they, in many cases, pay more for FOs.
That's why everyone outside AC is hung up on flatpay. And why AC can't seem to find pilots for the WBs.
infiniteregulus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:04 am
If they changed the pay on the first 4 years to be more or modified flat pay to 2 years, would they retroactively pay those who did the full 4? Otherwise I don't see those guys passing their vote.
That's not really how it it works.
And if those people vote no, they're hypocrites.
If Jazz all of a sudden got raises for new hires, and nothing for the Sr pilots it would still pass. Because everyone knows it's for the greater good. And if for some reason it didn't, all that Captains I did with over the years saying how it needs to change and they don't support the low pay were all liars.
Just feel like if 1500+ pilots went through 4 years of flat pay, and after the retirements dwindle out the upper ranks, a VAST majority of bodies on property would have gone through flat pay. When the next negotiations comes around, human nature would dictate that they won't fight the 4 year flat pay unless they get something back in return, since they all went through it themselves. Obviously it's not a democracy with regards to hiring, but it COULD present itself one day.
That would be an incredibly ego-centric and selfish mentality, and one that would absolutely decimate the possibility of improving pilot pay within the Canadian aviation industry.
Not only that, but it would likely continue to harm the attractiveness of airline flying in Canada, thereby reducing interest at the grassroots level of aviation, exacerbating the 'shortage' without any measurable benefit in salary or work life.
S.
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
infiniteregulus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:04 am
If they changed the pay on the first 4 years to be more or modified flat pay to 2 years, would they retroactively pay those who did the full 4? Otherwise I don't see those guys passing their vote.
That's not really how it it works.
And if those people vote no, they're hypocrites.
If Jazz all of a sudden got raises for new hires, and nothing for the Sr pilots it would still pass. Because everyone knows it's for the greater good. And if for some reason it didn't, all that Captains I did with over the years saying how it needs to change and they don't support the low pay were all liars.
Just feel like if 1500+ pilots went through 4 years of flat pay, and after the retirements dwindle out the upper ranks, a VAST majority of bodies on property would have gone through flat pay. When the next negotiations comes around, human nature would dictate that they won't fight the 4 year flat pay unless they get something back in return, since they all went through it themselves. Obviously it's not a democracy with regards to hiring, but it COULD present itself one day.
I understand the point you make but I still somewhat disagree. I think there are enough pilots at AC or in my example at Jazz that want to see the profession get better for everyone. I for example am no longer on the shitty FO pay, but I will still fight to have it fixed even though it doesn't effect me anymore. It might be an issue, maybe... but I want to believe that the group as a whole would see the benefit in fixing some of these big problems we have an making this a better career for everyone who decides to pursue it.
Unfortunately history has shown that those at the top will vote to improve life for themselves. Screw the guys who aren’t even on the property yet. Everybody has to pay their dues.
schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:51 pm
I am sure all those pilots past year 4 are finding out there are other 'fish to fry', likely issues regarding reserve, but for everyone else in this industry, ACs 'Navajo captain' starting wages affect ALL salaries by dragging down industry averages. It's not the charter companies, or LCCs and ULCCs, dragging down the industry, they, in many cases, pay more for FOs.
That's why everyone outside AC is hung up on flatpay. And why AC can't seem to find pilots for the WBs.
S.
I am not sure that the ONLY thing or even the MAJOR factor of driving the industry down is the 4 year flat pay at AC, but you have a fair point.
How come there is a course right called NH New Hire on the course right list but it isn't used for your first course? Wouldn't it be fair to allow new hires to not spend a course right especially since they often have no choice in what airplane they get?
In a 25 to 40 year career span how many years will you be living on 60-80k. Not trying to justify the 4 year scale however with a career potential earning of 250 to 320k a year it should’nt be a deal breaker.
A 12 year 777 FO just posted their year to date, $249k.
Dry Guy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:28 am
How come there is a course right called NH New Hire on the course right list but it isn't used for your first course? Wouldn't it be fair to allow new hires to not spend a course right especially since they often have no choice in what airplane they get?
RVR6000 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:58 pm
In a 25 to 40 year career span how many years will you be living on 60-80k. Not trying to justify the 4 year scale however with a career potential earning of 250 to 320k a year it should’nt be a deal breaker.
A 12 year 777 FO just posted their year to date, $249k.
Regardless, a new hire should not start at those low wages if the new hire has years of experience at other airlines. The use of that experience should not be only to get one into Air Canada, but also recognized for pay, as is the case with other professional jobs. For instance an experienced lawyer would not be forced to start as a paralegal upon changing employment, or a nurse as an orderly just because the pay goes up in later years. Four years of flat pay is only to serve the "pyramid" which gets longer with time.
4 years flat pay wouldn't be so hard to Swallow if at year 5 you'd jump to say $150/hr+ on the NBs.
But like you said, the pyramid keeps getting taller. Look at Jazz's b scale. 15 year FO table and 20 year Captain table with no YOS! I'm sure extending out the pay tables will be the next thing AC or ACPA pushes for to ensure more raises for their top 1500 pilots. 3 houses and a cottage isn't enough for those 777 Skippers, I guess they want a Porsche parked at each one too, maybe a float plane to get up to the cottage for the weekend?
All while the rest of us scramble for table scraps. Like you said, no one is coming to AC without quite a few years of experience and likely a bunch of 705 PIC time flying the same passengers around. Why the pay is so rediculous is beyond me.
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Last edited by Lightchop on Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
Lightchop wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:58 am
4 years flat pay wouldn't be so hard to Swallow if at year 5 you'd jump to say $150/hr+ on the NBs.
But like you said, the pyramid keeps getting taller. Look at Jazz's b scale. 15 year FO table and 20 year Captain table with no YOS! I'm sure extending out the pay tables will be the next thing AC or ACPA pushes for to ensure more raises for their top 1500 pilots. 3 houses and a cottage isn't enough for those 777 Skippers, I guess they want a Porsche parked at each one too, maybe a float plane to get up to the cottage for the weekend?
All while the rest of us scramble for table scraps. Like you said, no one is coming to AC without quite a few years of experience and likely a bunch of 705 PIC time flying the same passengers around. Why the pay is so rediculous is beyond me.
The top guys got the same raise as the rest of the group, 2% annually. ACPA position is more sound than you think, you’ll spend majority of your career at year 12 scale then the first 4 year. A 3-4% increase to a year 12 rate is more beneficial to the ENTIRE group than a 20% increase to the flat pay.
Upgrades are at 2.5 year, bid the left to the 320 you’ll be making a lot more than 150k. Or go over to rogue right away and make the most of their OT structure.
I'm kinda tired of people blaming AC pilots for the low starting pay.
We tried to stop 4 year flat, B-scale LCC, save the pension...
It was voted down by a majority of the membership, and then forced on us by the Ratt and Harper. We all took massive concessions in FOS. Only to have the company turning record profits and a pension in surplus a few years later.
We have been largely outmanoeuvred by the company with government help for years... But it's hardly been with the goal of screwing junior members.
Granted 777 captains did get their formula pay calculations bumped, beyond the rest of our anemic rates, got an extra 5 years on the top of the pile, and perhaps many of them generally vote to protect their pension above all... But there are also many who are just as concerned and disgusted by the losses below them. They still lag their industry peers in pay, perhaps by a slightly smaller margin, but they are behind nonetheless - same as the rest of us in this company, and in this country.
Lightchop wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:58 am
4 years flat pay wouldn't be so hard to Swallow if at year 5 you'd jump to say $150/hr+ on the NBs.
But like you said, the pyramid keeps getting taller. Look at Jazz's b scale. 15 year FO table and 20 year Captain table with no YOS! I'm sure extending out the pay tables will be the next thing AC or ACPA pushes for to ensure more raises for their top 1500 pilots. 3 houses and a cottage isn't enough for those 777 Skippers, I guess they want a Porsche parked at each one too, maybe a float plane to get up to the cottage for the weekend?
All while the rest of us scramble for table scraps. Like you said, no one is coming to AC without quite a few years of experience and likely a bunch of 705 PIC time flying the same passengers around. Why the pay is so rediculous is beyond me.
The top guys got the same raise as the rest of the group, 2% annually. ACPA position is more sound than you think, you’ll spend majority of your career at year 12 scale then the first 4 year. A 3-4% increase to a year 12 rate is more beneficial to the ENTIRE group than a 20% increase to the flat pay.
Upgrades are at 2.5 year, bid the left to the 320 you’ll be making a lot more than 150k. Or go over to rogue right away and make the most of their OT structure.
I took the fast upgrade at Jazz for the money and now I'm sitting on reserve with a horrible sked. I'd rather be an FO for 5+ years, learn from the sr guys and upgrade when I want to vs. being forced to because the pay is shit.
Lightchop wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:58 am
4 years flat pay wouldn't be so hard to Swallow if at year 5 you'd jump to say $150/hr+ on the NBs.
But like you said, the pyramid keeps getting taller. Look at Jazz's b scale. 15 year FO table and 20 year Captain table with no YOS! I'm sure extending out the pay tables will be the next thing AC or ACPA pushes for to ensure more raises for their top 1500 pilots. 3 houses and a cottage isn't enough for those 777 Skippers, I guess they want a Porsche parked at each one too, maybe a float plane to get up to the cottage for the weekend?
All while the rest of us scramble for table scraps. Like you said, no one is coming to AC without quite a few years of experience and likely a bunch of 705 PIC time flying the same passengers around. Why the pay is so rediculous is beyond me.
The top guys got the same raise as the rest of the group, 2% annually. ACPA position is more sound than you think, you’ll spend majority of your career at year 12 scale then the first 4 year. A 3-4% increase to a year 12 rate is more beneficial to the ENTIRE group than a 20% increase to the flat pay.
Upgrades are at 2.5 year, bid the left to the 320 you’ll be making a lot more than 150k. Or go over to rogue right away and make the most of their OT structure.
I took the fast upgrade at Jazz for the money and now I'm sitting on reserve with a horrible sked. I'd rather be an FO for 5+ years, learn from the sr guys and upgrade when I want to vs. being forced to because the pay is shit.
I think this is the point a lot of people are missing. The pay, while certainly improved compared to flat pay (despite still being below our US counterparts) when you bid left, lifestyle goes right out the window.
Screwed both ways unless you have a bare bones lifestyle or a spouse who can support you and the family while you navigate the AC career game.
The top guys got the same raise as the rest of the group, 2% annually. ACPA position is more sound than you think, you’ll spend majority of your career at year 12 scale then the first 4 year. A 3-4% increase to a year 12 rate is more beneficial to the ENTIRE group than a 20% increase to the flat pay.
Upgrades are at 2.5 year, bid the left to the 320 you’ll be making a lot more than 150k. Or go over to rogue right away and make the most of their OT structure.
I took the fast upgrade at Jazz for the money and now I'm sitting on reserve with a horrible sked. I'd rather be an FO for 5+ years, learn from the sr guys and upgrade when I want to vs. being forced to because the pay is shit.
I think this is the point a lot of people are missing. The pay, while certainly improved compared to flat pay (despite still being below our US counterparts) when you bid left, lifestyle goes right out the window.
Screwed both ways unless you have a bare bones lifestyle or a spouse who can support you and the family while you navigate the AC career game.
S.
If Jazz still had YOS and starting pay wasn't what it is there is a good chance I'd still be in the right seat working 12 days a month in the top %10 of the list. Losing that YOS really fucked everyone post 2015.
If the MEC dug their heels in at Jazz you wouldn't even be working there. You would be at Sky or GGN or whatever other carrier AC would have parted the Jazz flying off to.
There would have been no fast left seats and you certainly wouldnt be the top 10% of any list at Jazz. 6 years ago the most jr upgrade was 6 years and it seemed like every bid more people were getting dropped off the bottom and back into the right seat.
I and 96% of the pilots at Jazz voted for the explosive career growth your currently enjoying. your welcome.
