737 max

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Raymond Hall
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:47 am

I was interviewed by CBC Television last Thursday on this issue. Their focus in the interview was on why there was only a brief reference to MCAS in the flight manual's glossary, but no description of the control augmentation system in the flight manual itself.

The segment will air tonight, Tuesday March 26th on The National. There is a brief reference to the segment now posted on the CBC web site:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/boeing-737-manu ... -1.5065842

Afterthought: Watched it on the Toronto CBC station. Very short. Over an hour in the studio to yield about 30 seconds of air time.
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Re: 737 max

Post by FICU » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:10 pm

From that CBC report...
The pilots, unfamiliar with the MCAS system, may have been helpless to respond and unable to bring its nose back up.
"Helpless" or not properly trained on how to shut off the stab trim motors in dealing with a stab trim that was trying to drive them into the ocean?

The stab trim cutout switches are checked for position in the first flight, "before start checklist to the line" by every crew, before every first flight of the day every time. They aren't some obscure switches never dealt with unless it's called for in a QRC or NNC.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:21 pm

FICU wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:10 pm
From that CBC report...
The pilots, unfamiliar with the MCAS system, may have been helpless to respond and unable to bring its nose back up.
The stab trim cutout switches are checked for position in the first flight, "before start checklist to the line" by every crew, before every first flight of the day every time. They aren't some obscure switches never dealt with unless it's called for in a QRC or NNC.
Well that's the problem, isn't it? There was no Alert saying "AOA DISAGREE", despite the "option" being available but not purchased by the two airlines.

Put yourself in these pilots' situation. They are a precious few seconds from death and they did not recognize that the flight control intervention stemmed from a system that they were not even advised of (in the case of Lion Air) and not trained in the recognition of (in the case of Ethiopian), despite the modification to the AOM issued month earlier.

Put 100 pilots in a simulator in the same knowledge scenario (i.e. prior to the second accident) and more than a few of them would have not taken the correct, timely action, in my view. The report in the Atlantic states that Boeing made an edict to the designers that the resultant design was to result in no additional pilot training cost.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... e/584947/

Where does the responsibility lie for that decision lie? Any why no training?

The choice of Boeing to make this alert as an add-on option that required an outlay of additional cash by the airlines, and the decision to not provide any information about the system and no training in its application ultimately cost Boeing thousands of times more than it would have it they had made provided it as standard software. Safety, for a price.

What price do you put on a manufacturer's reputation, or more importantly, on people's lives?
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Re: 737 max

Post by Gino Under » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:57 pm

Ray
It’s unbelievable Boeing sidestepped system redundacy like this. Especially with stall protection. This would seem entirely inconsistent with their history. It’s also shocking the FAA didn’t insist MCAS be covered in pilot differences training. And it is definitely a show stopper that Boeing decided to sell redundancy as an option.
No doubt they’ll be facing numerous lawsuits over this.
It’s going to cost them big sums of money in settlements and lost orders.
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Re: 737 max

Post by yvrflyguy » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:55 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:21 pm
FICU wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:10 pm
From that CBC report...
The pilots, unfamiliar with the MCAS system, may have been helpless to respond and unable to bring its nose back up.
The stab trim cutout switches are checked for position in the first flight, "before start checklist to the line" by every crew, before every first flight of the day every time. They aren't some obscure switches never dealt with unless it's called for in a QRC or NNC.
Well that's the problem, isn't it? There was no Alert saying "AOA DISAGREE", despite the "option" being available but not purchased by the two airlines.

Put yourself in these pilots' situation. They are a precious few seconds from death and they did not recognize that the flight control intervention stemmed from a system that they were not even advised of (in the case of Lion Air) and not trained in the recognition of (in the case of Ethiopian), despite the modification to the AOM issued month earlier.

Put 100 pilots in a simulator in the same knowledge scenario (i.e. prior to the second accident) and more than a few of them would have not taken the correct, timely action, in my view. The report in the Atlantic states that Boeing made an edict to the designers that the resultant design was to result in no additional pilot training cost.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... e/584947/

Where does the responsibility lie for that decision lie? Any why no training?

The choice of Boeing to make this alert as an add-on option that required an outlay of additional cash by the airlines, and the decision to not provide any information about the system and no training in its application ultimately cost Boeing thousands of times more than it would have it they had made provided it as standard software. Safety, for a price.

What price do you put on a manufacturer's reputation, or more importantly, on people's lives?


I would say that the pilots in that situation shouldn't be thinking of the "WHY" to the question of stabilizer is running away, but just to the fact that the stabilizer is running away. Even pilots without training on the MCAS should be able to execute the quick action items from memory for the runaway stabilizer. Hold the control column firmly, AP off, AT off...and if the runaway continues, which is this case it would, then click both stab trim switches off. Who cares why the trim is running away, get those quick action items done and then you can troubleshoot from there!! A well trained, professional crew should have been able to do this without issue. Just my 2 cents..
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Re: 737 max

Post by FICU » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:24 pm

They fought it for 10 minutes. The Captain was able to hand control to the FO and pull out the NNC book then go through it to try to find a solution. 10 minutes from when the flaps were retracted and the plane trimming nose down on its own into a dive. How could he not try to cutout the trim?

If the trim is doing something you don't want it to do like drive you into the ocean your training should have you do the "Uncommanded stab trim QRC" which are memory items. Regardless of the what system might be driving the trim... The trim is the problem. If the crew didn't think the stab trim was the problem that comes down to experience and or training.

Everyone is so caught up on the MCAS but it's just another system that uses stab trim even if pilots don't
know MCAS existed.

There is no separate Uncommanded stab trim checklist for autopilot on or autopilot off or speed trim. There is one QRC that encompasses all systems that can cause a possible Uncommanded stab trim.

Boeing definitely screwed up with the lack of a redundant AoA input for MCAS but 2 planes should not have crashed in day VMC conditions. I imagine Boeing would have expected the pilots to treat an erroneous MCAS activation as a stab trim issue with the QRC.
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Re: 737 max

Post by corethatthermal » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:54 pm

Hold the control column firmly, AP off, AT off...and if the runaway continues, which is this case it would, then click both stab trim switches off. Who cares why the trim is running away, get those quick action items done and then you can troubleshoot from there!! A well trained, professional crew s
hould have been able to do this without issue. Just my 2 cents..
Hindsight is 20/20 for pilots, trained to stay on automation as much as possible. The core flying skills ( shut off the automatics and fly by pitch, power and airspeed ) are replaced by complex and generally robust and dependable systems,,,,,, but that is not why we are in the cockpit !
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Raymond Hall
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:27 am

On one of my last SIMs on the 767 (before transitioning to the 777) after I did a departure from LHR and leveled off at 5,000 ft, the inspector froze the simulator to ask me a question: "Do you always hand-fly your departures?" To which I replied, "Doesn't everybody?"

One of the most curious characteristics that I noticed about my F/Os on all of the aircraft that I operated was that as soon as we rotated, almost every one would remove their feet from the rudder pedals. Rotate, feet back. Result: every turn thereafter resulted in a slip. Anathema to being a real pilot, in my view. Ab initio training demanded coordinated turns. You have three primary flight controls. Why don't you want to use all three to coordinate the operation of the aircraft? Why should that principle of operation change just because you are operating a larger aircraft?

When you choose to ignore the hands and feet skills that you learned in your primary training, you are essentially abandoning your professional responsibility, in my view. Similarly, when you allow the aircraft to overtake your own control of your attitude, you might as well give up being a pilot. Stay home and let the autopilot or the system design run the operation.

Yes, I am old school, but I am still alive.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Daniel Cooper » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:36 am

I've literally never seen someone take their feet off the pedals on rotation.
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Re: 737 max

Post by loadshed » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:07 am

I’m surprised at how quick many Pilots (here on this forum and elsewhere) are to blame the crew in the Ethiopian crash. Many are hypothesizing that they didn’t shut off the stab control switches and seem to think they could have had a different outcome.

It would appear from radar data that this flight had issues right after takeoff, and if it was an MCAS issue, it appears it may have come into play in this instance (as designed) after the flaps were selected up at Flap retraction altitude (likely 1000 feet AGL).

for the armchair quarterbacks out there, Let’s see you recover at 1000 feet AGL when the nose is uncommandedly pushing down on you, generating an excess rate of descent, and your only recourse is to recognize the problem..follow the initial memory items...and then pull the trim wheel handle out and start cranking like mad, in a desperate effort to get the nose up. Good luck to you.

Keep in mind Addis Ababa is 7600 feet elevation. It looks like this crew was unable to gain much above 1000 to 1500 feet in altitude., and was airborne for under 3 minutes.
Lets not be not be so quick to judge these Pilots who died in a desperate effort to regain control of their aircraft.
The planes are grounded for a reason.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Fanblade » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:31 am

It’s the startle affect of three things happening at the same time. Unreliable airspeed, stick shaker, MCAS. I think the simultaneous unreliable airspeed and stick shaker is being under played in our comprehension of what probably happened.

I don’t fly the Max but I assume the unreliable airspeed drill is probably full thrust and a pitch attitude. But two other systems are warning of imminent stall.

What would your instinct be? Lower the nose to gain some speed? Not follow the unreliable airspeed drill completely?

Problem is that lowering of the nose and excessive acceleration would mask the MCAS operation. MCAS will be actually trimming in the correct direction for high speed flight.

The accessive speed and nose down trim eventually lead to elevator blowback.

Oh yeah. Now imagine this is all going on and you have 300 hours.

If you haven’t heard of elevator blowback here is an article.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/03/22/bjorn ... sh-part-2/
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Re: 737 max

Post by Fanblade » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:39 am

We all know how disconcerting unreliable airspeed could be. Ignoring everything the instrumentation is telling you and flying a thrust setting and pitch attitude is difficult mental gymnastics. It is why that drill is so important.
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J31
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Re: 737 max

Post by J31 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:41 am

Raymond Hall wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:27 am
On one of my last SIMs on the 767 (before transitioning to the 777) after I did a departure from LHR and leveled off at 5,000 ft, the inspector froze the simulator to ask me a question: "Do you always hand-fly your departures?" To which I replied, "Doesn't everybody?"

One of the most curious characteristics that I noticed about my F/Os on all of the aircraft that I operated was that as soon as we rotated, almost every one would remove their feet from the rudder pedals. Rotate, feet back. Result: every turn thereafter resulted in a slip. Anathema to being a real pilot, in my view. Ab initio training demanded coordinated turns. You have three primary flight controls. Why don't you want to use all three to coordinate the operation of the aircraft? Why should that principle of operation change just because you are operating a larger aircraft?

When you choose to ignore the hands and feet skills that you learned in your primary training, you are essentially abandoning your professional responsibility, in my view. Similarly, when you allow the aircraft to overtake your own control of your attitude, you might as well give up being a pilot. Stay home and let the autopilot or the system design run the operation.

Yes, I am old school, but I am still alive.
Most if not all SOP's have direction to "Guard" all flight controls with the autopilot on. Personally I "Guard" the flight controls especially the rudder till 10000 AGL. Any pilot that removes one's feet from the rudder right after rotation should be "educated"!

Raymond, I disagree with your "every turn thereafter resulted in a slip" comment. Boeing recommends that rudder is not used in normal flight as a properly working yaw damper will keep things coordinated with or without the autopilot on.

Of course there are exceptions like a Yaw damper inop MEL or intentional rudder input slipping for takeoffs and landings.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Fanblade » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:48 am

Many places train off the rudders out of concern for pilot initiated rudder reversal.

Remember this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America ... Flight_587
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Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:21 am

J31 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:41 am
Raymond Hall wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:27 am
On one of my last SIMs on the 767 (before transitioning to the 777) after I did a departure from LHR and leveled off at 5,000 ft, the inspector froze the simulator to ask me a question: "Do you always hand-fly your departures?" To which I replied, "Doesn't everybody?"

One of the most curious characteristics that I noticed about my F/Os on all of the aircraft that I operated was that as soon as we rotated, almost every one would remove their feet from the rudder pedals. Rotate, feet back. Result: every turn thereafter resulted in a slip. Anathema to being a real pilot, in my view. Ab initio training demanded coordinated turns. You have three primary flight controls. Why don't you want to use all three to coordinate the operation of the aircraft? Why should that principle of operation change just because you are operating a larger aircraft?

When you choose to ignore the hands and feet skills that you learned in your primary training, you are essentially abandoning your professional responsibility, in my view. Similarly, when you allow the aircraft to overtake your own control of your attitude, you might as well give up being a pilot. Stay home and let the autopilot or the system design run the operation.

Yes, I am old school, but I am still alive.
Most if not all SOP's have direction to "Guard" all flight controls with the autopilot on. Personally I "Guard" the flight controls especially the rudder till 10000 AGL. Any pilot that removes one's feet from the rudder right after rotation should be "educated"!

Raymond, I disagree with your "every turn thereafter resulted in a slip" comment. Boeing recommends that rudder is not used in normal flight as a properly working yaw damper will keep things coordinated with or without the autopilot on.

Of course there are exceptions like a Yaw damper inop MEL or intentional rudder input slipping for takeoffs and landings.
You saved me some typing J31.... I'd also like to point out that departing LHR we are encouraged to use the AP early as LHR is a noise sensitive/high traffic airport and guys were getting violated for noise abatement because they weren't exactly on the SID and there are noise sensors positioned everywhere there. There is a time and place for automation. It's one thing departing straight out of YEG or YYC and handbombing to cruise but high traffic volume TCA is one place to use it.

I've been hearing for a few years that pilots are complacent and utilize automation too much. These accidents are not a result of over-reliance on automation but an inability to recognize how a system worked due to an initial lack of Boeing disclosure, a lack of training and a lack of situational awareness. It's sad because it was 100% preventable.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:27 pm

CNN: Software Fix Completed
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/27/economy/ ... index.html

Boeing unveiled an overhaul Wednesday to a software system and the pilot training of its signature 737 MAX plane, marking its most direct attempt to fix an element of the plane's original design that investigators believe led to two recent crashes.
At the company's plant in Renton, Washington, where the plane is assembled, Boeing pilots ran through scenarios on a flight simulator that was transmitted live into a conference room where regulators and some 200 pilots from client airlines were gathered, according to Mike Sinnett, Boeing's vice president for product strategy. The guests were able to request test simulations.

Boeing also said Wednesday it would make an alert that displays if the two AOA sensors are contradicting each other standard on the 737 MAX. It had been included only as an option in the original model.
Sinnett called the alert, known as the AOA disagree flag, "supplemental information that is not required by any crew procedures or any alerts to operate the airplane."

The software has also been changed so that it does not repeat the downward pushing cycle in the event of an abnormal AOA reading, and will no longer produce an angle that can not be counteracted manually by a pilot. …

Software updates to the plane will take about an hour, and pilots will have to have to complete a new, more rigorous layer of computer-based training before being allowed to fly the plane, Sinnett said.
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Re: 737 max

Post by '97 Tercel » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:40 pm

Interesting. Any new estimates on WJ and AC operating them again?
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:21 am
Raymond, I disagree with your "every turn thereafter resulted in a slip" comment. Boeing recommends that rudder is not used in normal flight as a properly working yaw damper will keep things coordinated with or without the autopilot on.

You saved me some typing J31.... I'd also like to point out that departing LHR we are encouraged to use the AP early as LHR is a noise sensitive/high traffic airport and guys were getting violated for noise abatement because they weren't exactly on the SID and there are noise sensors positioned everywhere there. There is a time and place for automation. It's one thing departing straight out of YEG or YYC and handbombing to cruise but high traffic volume TCA is one place to use it.
It is one thing to have Boeing "recommend" that one should not use the rudder to coordinate one's turns, and it is entirely another to keep your turns coordinated. Real pilots fly the airplane and fly the SID. They could allow the autopilot to fly the SID, but they could also use their own skills to execute the procedures and keep their skills honed. In my view, there is no excuse for slipping in a turn. Yaw damper or no yaw damper. Leave the autopilot for the lowest common denominator. The reason that we have had these recent accidents stems at least in part from the fact that the pilots operating these multi-million dollar machines don't recognize that, Fleet Canuck or Boeing 737 Max, it all comes back to one fundamental concept: needle, ball and airspeed.
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Last edited by Raymond Hall on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 737 max

Post by FICU » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:29 pm

I just looked at the FDR data and the Lion Air crew was able to trim the nose up with electric trim while interupting the MCAS.
BTD wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:32 pm
https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... MINARY.pdf

This is the PDF link for the preliminary report for lion air. For interested persons it is worth reading rather than asking questions to the message board as it contains factual information.
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Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:14 am

Raymond Hall wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:21 am
Raymond, I disagree with your "every turn thereafter resulted in a slip" comment. Boeing recommends that rudder is not used in normal flight as a properly working yaw damper will keep things coordinated with or without the autopilot on.

You saved me some typing J31.... I'd also like to point out that departing LHR we are encouraged to use the AP early as LHR is a noise sensitive/high traffic airport and guys were getting violated for noise abatement because they weren't exactly on the SID and there are noise sensors positioned everywhere there. There is a time and place for automation. It's one thing departing straight out of YEG or YYC and handbombing to cruise but high traffic volume TCA is one place to use it.
It is one thing to have Boeing "recommend" that one should not use the rudder to coordinate one's turns, and it is entirely another to keep your turns coordinated. Real pilots fly the airplane and fly the SID. They could allow the autopilot to fly the SID, but they could also use their own skills to execute the procedures and keep their skills honed. In my view, there is no excuse for slipping in a turn. Yaw damper or no yaw damper. Leave the autopilot for the lowest common denominator. The reason that we have had these recent accidents stems at least in part from the fact that the pilots operating these multi-million dollar machines don't recognize that, Fleet Canuck or Boeing 737 Max, it all comes back to one fundamental concept: needle, ball and airspeed.
Real pilot... teehee
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Re: 737 max

Post by FL320 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:40 am

Raymond Hall wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:21 am
Raymond, I disagree with your "every turn thereafter resulted in a slip" comment. Boeing recommends that rudder is not used in normal flight as a properly working yaw damper will keep things coordinated with or without the autopilot on.

You saved me some typing J31.... I'd also like to point out that departing LHR we are encouraged to use the AP early as LHR is a noise sensitive/high traffic airport and guys were getting violated for noise abatement because they weren't exactly on the SID and there are noise sensors positioned everywhere there. There is a time and place for automation. It's one thing departing straight out of YEG or YYC and handbombing to cruise but high traffic volume TCA is one place to use it.
It is one thing to have Boeing "recommend" that one should not use the rudder to coordinate one's turns, and it is entirely another to keep your turns coordinated. Real pilots fly the airplane and fly the SID. They could allow the autopilot to fly the SID, but they could also use their own skills to execute the procedures and keep their skills honed. In my view, there is no excuse for slipping in a turn. Yaw damper or no yaw damper. Leave the autopilot for the lowest common denominator. The reason that we have had these recent accidents stems at least in part from the fact that the pilots operating these multi-million dollar machines don't recognize that, Fleet Canuck or Boeing 737 Max, it all comes back to one fundamental concept: needle, ball and airspeed.
Real pilots play flying solo in their little Cessna during the days OFF. Flying manually a complex SID in a busy airspace like LHR with 400 people on board; with all the unnecessary workload added on the PM is the perfect way to add more holes in the swiss cheese in my opinion (just for you own satisfaction).
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Re: 737 max

Post by telex » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:59 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:21 am
Raymond, I disagree with your "every turn thereafter resulted in a slip" comment. Boeing recommends that rudder is not used in normal flight as a properly working yaw damper will keep things coordinated with or without the autopilot on.

You saved me some typing J31.... I'd also like to point out that departing LHR we are encouraged to use the AP early as LHR is a noise sensitive/high traffic airport and guys were getting violated for noise abatement because they weren't exactly on the SID and there are noise sensors positioned everywhere there. There is a time and place for automation. It's one thing departing straight out of YEG or YYC and handbombing to cruise but high traffic volume TCA is one place to use it.
It is one thing to have Boeing "recommend" that one should not use the rudder to coordinate one's turns, and it is entirely another to keep your turns coordinated. Real pilots fly the airplane and fly the SID. They could allow the autopilot to fly the SID, but they could also use their own skills to execute the procedures and keep their skills honed. In my view, there is no excuse for slipping in a turn. Yaw damper or no yaw damper. Leave the autopilot for the lowest common denominator. The reason that we have had these recent accidents stems at least in part from the fact that the pilots operating these multi-million dollar machines don't recognize that, Fleet Canuck or Boeing 737 Max, it all comes back to one fundamental concept: needle, ball and airspeed.
How on earth did you come to this conclusion given your credentials?
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Re: 737 max

Post by CZBBYYZPilot » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:42 am

Yeah, once you get airborne, you smoothly release the rudder input you were using to keep straight on the runway. Then, no more rudder. At least on the Embraer and Airbus. Then you could guard the pedals till 10,000 ft if it makes you feel better or if you have an a-hole Captain who keeps telling you real pilots are supposed to keep their feet on the pedals and hand fly the SID 🤣😂. On the metro, it was another story. Yes, you needed to coordinate the turns. But not modern commercial jets with yaw dampers and roll spoilers, etc.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Hangry » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:12 am

This guy is the reason why real airline types roll their eyes at the "aviation experts" on TV. Your thoughts are as antiquated as an NDB.
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Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:09 am

Why would you place that expectation and workload on yourself and crew?

Maybe a crew on their 5th early european wake-up, having already lost 5-10 nights sleep in the previous few weeks, for their 10th Atlantic crossing of the month?
Maybe on an RNAV1 departure... requiring maximum 0.5nm deviation 95% of the time?
Not to mention the host of other things to contend with beyond just the aircraft path and fatigue... the non-standard transition - that gets busted all time, noise violation risk - again we're called on it all the time, high traffic density airspace threat, maybe a language threat, or unfamiliar airport...

Use the tools available! If ever there are times to use AP early... here it is... "Real Pilots" don't have to prove anything... manage the flight efficiently with the tools available and know when the time to hand bomb a departure is... and it isn't every time.

I don't know, I've been on 3 Boeings and have never had, to coordinate my turns... maybe I'm doing everything wrong?
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