737 max

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yycflyguy
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Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:36 am

Hangry wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:12 am
This guy is the reason why real airline types roll their eyes at the "aviation experts" on TV. Your thoughts are as antiquated as an NDB.
It's also the reason why CRM is such an important element of evaluating pilots in today's FD. Aviation philosophy has evolved in the 10+ year since his retirement. Utilization of available levels of automation are expected in certain situations, like LHR. Departing straight outta YWG/YOW/YEG VFR conditions with no traffic? Fill yer boots. High volume, complicated SIDs in mountainous terrain at nighttime with CB activity? Not so much.

It all comes back to one fundamental concept: Pilot decision making and utilizing crew and automation appropriately.... but what do I know, I've never been asked to speak as an "aviation expert". :roll:
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Re: 737 max

Post by FL320 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:12 am

I am surprised your SOP doesn’t require the AP engagement at high density traffic airports and for RNAV SID departures.
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Re: 737 max

Post by BMLtech » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:59 am

somebody better engage the AP because this thread is way off course..
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Re: 737 max

Post by Daniel Cooper » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:25 am

Everywhere they go is a high density airport with RNAV SID departures. You would never fly.
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Re: 737 max

Post by complexintentions » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:47 am

There are RNAV SID's that are simple and ones that are complex. LHR is definitely one of the latter. Of course, the example cited was in the sim. But in real life? Better not screw up, it'll be hard to justify.

I am completely in agreement with maintaining handling skills. But a "real pilot" also has the experience to know when it's prudent to make maximum and proper use of the tools in his toolbox, (like, a zillion dollars worth of automation), and when is a more appropriate time to practise his hand-flying. Which, incidentally, increases the workload of the PM far more than himself. If you're gonna be a hand-hero with something to prove to yourself or me or whatever, at least brief the poor guy sitting next to you before you take off.

And I disagree that this topic relating to to decision-making and task prioritization is unrelated to the Max crashes. The Ethiopian crashed after ten minutes, not "seconds".
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Re: 737 max

Post by doiwannabeapilot » Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:41 pm

I like to guard all the controls for the ENTIRE flight; never know when the autopilot could kick off. :D
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Re: 737 max

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:05 pm

Most copilots/cocaptains would stare at you wondering why you are riding the controls for 8hrs on autopilot. You do know that if the autopilot kicks of there will be an aural warning right? And likely an oral warning from the other pilot lol
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Re: 737 max

Post by J31 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:05 pm

Boeing's fix for 737 MAX will take additional weeks.....

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/01/politics ... index.html
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:30 pm

Hangry wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:12 am
This guy is the reason why real airline types roll their eyes at the "aviation experts" on TV. Your thoughts are as antiquated as an NDB.
Right. Apparently, in your view, so is flight safety. As I understand it, you are criticizing me for demonstrating competency in the use of hands and feet and maintaining control over needle, ball, airspeed, thrust and attitude.

But isn’t competency at the core of the issue here? If there ever was one thing I taught myself to do, it was to ensure that I was in control of the aircraft 100% of the time, even if that control was assisted by the use of automation. And to know how to disengage the automated systems when they did not perform as required.

To die by reason of overlooking basic principles of flight and to take 345 unfortunate victims to their death as well, while struggling to simply stop the aircraft from impacting the earth, doesn’t meet my expectation of competency.

So how does one maintain one’s competency in those critical factors of hands, feet, needle, ball, airspeed, thrust and attitude, if one continually cedes total control to the automatic processes at every instance? Especially if the automated systems override the controls even when the autopilot is not engaged?

It is an airplane that you are operating. It operates on the basis of some very, very basic principles, regardless of the automation available to assist its performance.

How many minutes per year do you actually fly? I say minutes, not hours, because with your suggestion, I’ll credit you with 30 seconds of control on the take-off roll, thirty seconds of climb-out before calling “Autopilot On” and two minutes of control inside the marker on approach, landing and roll-out, every second leg, perhaps six to ten legs per month. Three minutes of hands and feet, five times a month, 11 months a year. Total, 165 minutes.

Does that ensure competency? Less than three hours per year. The remaining time airborne is simply turning dials, programming the box and watching the airplane operate like a driverless car. Or sleeping in the bunk. Thousands of hours of time, of which less than 1% is actually "flying" the aircraft.

And you wonder why pilots have problems? First, understanding the reason for the aircraft’s behavior at time-sensitive, critical phases of flight, and second, taking the appropriate action to prevent the aircraft from committing hari kari (controlled flight into terrain).

Couple that lack of actual flying with pilots who have never flown a small aircraft—200-hour wonders like the F/O in the last accident, where all of his time was in either the simulator or the right seat of a $120 million aircraft, indeed, following Boeing’s recommended procedures—then look at the result. All the holes in the Swiss cheese line up.

Antiquated? What is antiquated about insisting on maintaining competency and maintaining control of the aircraft? I am still alive. Others, less antiquated, are not.
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Last edited by Raymond Hall on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:30 pm

Deleted. Duplicate Post.
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Re: 737 max

Post by telex » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:49 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:30 pm
Hangry wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:12 am
This guy is the reason why real airline types roll their eyes at the "aviation experts" on TV. Your thoughts are as antiquated as an NDB.
Right. Apparently, in your view, so is flight safety. As I understand it, you are criticizing me for demonstrating competency in the use of hands and feet and maintaining control over needle, ball, airspeed, thrust and attitude.

But isn’t competency at the core of the issue here? If there ever was one thing I taught myself to do, it was to ensure that I was in control of the aircraft 100% of the time, even if that control was assisted by the use of automation. And to know how to disengage the automated systems when they did not perform as required.

To die by reason of overlooking basic principles of flight and to take 345 unfortunate victims to their death as well, while struggling to simply stop the aircraft from impacting with the earth, doesn’t meet my expectation of competency.

So how does one maintain one’s competency in those critical factors of hands, feet, needle, ball, airspeed, thrust and attitude, if one continually cedes total control to the automatic processes at every instance? Especially if the automated systems override the controls even when the autopilot is not engaged?

It is an airplane that you are operating. It operates on the basis of some very, very basic principles, regardless of the automation available to assist its performance.

How many minutes per year do you actually fly? I say minutes, not hours, because with your suggestion, I’ll credit you with 30 seconds of control on the take-off roll, thirty seconds of climb-out before calling “Autopilot On” and two minutes of control inside the marker on approach, landing and roll-out, every second leg, perhaps six to ten legs per month. Three minutes of hands and feet, five times a month, 11 months a year. Total, 165 minutes.

Does that ensure competency? Less than three hours per year. The remaining time airborne is simply turning dials, programming the box and watching the airplane operate like a driverless car. Or sleeping in the bunk. Thousands of hours of time, of which less than 1% is actually "flying" the aircraft.

And you wonder why pilots have problems? First, recognizing the aircraft’s behavior at time-sensitive, critical phases of flight, and second, taking the appropriate action to prevent the aircraft from committing hari kari (controlled flight into terrain).

Couple that lack of actual flying with pilots who have never flown a small aircraft—200-hour wonders like the F/O in the last accident, where all of his time was in either the simulator or the right seat of a $120 million aircraft, indeed, following Boeing’s recommended procedures—then look at the result. All the holes in the Swiss cheese line up.

Antiquated? What is antiquated about insisting on maintaining competency and maintaining control of the aircraft?
Your statement to the effect of "real pilots hand fly the SID" is why you got shat upon from many.
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Re: 737 max

Post by ant_321 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:31 am

I’m still trying to figure out what you were doing with rudder pedals on a Boeing. I’ve even paid closer attention since reading your post and using no ruder all the turns stayed perfectly coordinated. One can only assume you spent your career skidding through every turn.
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Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:06 am

Your argument is full of fallacy and assumptions.

"Unless you do it like I did, you're not competent."

"You only fly for 30 seconds before engaging AP."

You're way out.

What I see people here saying, or at least what I am saying, pick your times appropriately. I often hand fly my climb out to RVSM limits, I often hand fly from base to landing... but I don't do it at every airport, every time without regard for weather, traffic, complexity of departure/arrival, and workload or fatigue levels... not to mention RNP1 sids/stars require FD and/or AP use... really they want you to use AP... RF segments and AR approaches require AP engagement.

I can imagine Raymond... looking out the window and calling for the after takeoff check as he's skidding through his turn and missing setting the transition... while the FO tries to set the new altitude and heading bug, execute the direct to in the box, and make a freq change... "I really got 'err under control, dunt I..."
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Re: 737 max

Post by AOW » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:32 am

The simple answer is to fly an Airbus... you can leave your feet on the floor and your turns are still coordinated.

And there’s no after takeoff checklist, so you can’t miss what isn’t there!

And they are nice to hand fly, but have a brilliant autopilot and auto thrust system for the rest of the time when you don’t want to hand fly.
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Re: 737 max

Post by GRK2 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:20 am

Manoeuvring the aircraft
using rudder will result in yaw and a secondary roll response – with
Flight path
Heading
Sideslip
Angle Fig 1: Rudder induced sideslip
According to Boeing the Primary uses for rudder input
are in crosswind operations, directional control on
takeoff or roll out and in the event of engine failure.


It is difficult to perceive sideslip and few
modern aircraft have true sideslip indicators.
In the instrument panels of older aircraft the
“ball” was an indicator of side force or acceleration rather than sideslip angle. Some
newer aircraft have electronic flight displays
with a slip/skid indication (“the brick”) but
these are still an indication of side force or
acceleration, not sideslip angle. As more
rudder is applied, more sideslip is generated
and a greater roll response will be induced.

Cmon Raymond, you appear to be a bright fellow. Listen to what the informed and more recently experienced pilots are saying. You seem to be a bit behind the times when it comes to how complicated SIDS and STARS are to flown in busy terminal areas. Hand flying has its place in many operations, but it has to be balanced between what is required by SOP's and when it's appropriate. I agree with the majority here that "real pilots" can still fly using all the features their machines have in all phases, but it takes a good one to know when to use those features properly and to do it with maximum safety and efficiency.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:07 pm

GRK2 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:20 am
Cmon Raymond, you appear to be a bright fellow. Listen to what the informed and more recently experienced pilots are saying. You seem to be a bit behind the times when it comes to how complicated SIDS and STARS are to flown in busy terminal areas. Hand flying has its place in many operations, but it has to be balanced between what is required by SOP's and when it's appropriate. I agree with the majority here that "real pilots" can still fly using all the features their machines have in all phases, but it takes a good one to know when to use those features properly and to do it with maximum safety and efficiency.
You will not get an argument from me against this logic. I did not intend to create a firestorm regarding principles of flight, and I did not intend that in the more advanced aircraft with sophisticated yaw damper input and control that pilots need to augment those systems by use of manual input to the rudder. In fact, although I was not explicit in my previous suggestion, I was referring primarily to my pre-Boeing experience (23 years on the DC-9) where almost every single pilot that I worked with, both Captains and F/O's retracted their feet on rotation. Result—almost every turn was slipped.

My main comment was to the effect that if we do not hand fly the aircraft sufficiently enough to maintain our skills as professional pilots, our skills will atrophy, just like our muscles will atrophy when we are bed ridden.

And I did not mean to intend that every SID should be hand flown, especially critically complex SIDs. My principle point was that as professional pilots, we must never forget that we are at the controls of an airplane, not a computer. Lose track of the situational awareness at one's own peril. Place too much trust in confidence in the automation at one's own peril. Hands and feet are still important. But even more important is the constant awareness of the flight profile and one's requirement to be in control of the aircraft's flight characteristics, at all times.

Recent design imperatives, such as those in the Max evolution, have attempted to minimize the role of pilots and training with respect to the more advanced software implementations, to the point of designing systems in order to avoid any pilot training costs whatsoever, and to the point of not even providing information in the aircraft flight manuals of systems such as MCAS.

Those imperatives have impeded pilots' abilities to recognize and control the primary flight characteristics of their own aircraft. This is particularly acute in the case of pilots who have no hands and feet experience whatsoever, such as the 200-hour F/O charged with the responsibility of passenger safety in the most recent accident.

Those imperatives must be challenged.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:29 am

Today's Washington Post:

ADDIS ABABA, Ethiopia — The Ethiopian Airlines pilots performed all the procedures recommended by Boeing to save their doomed 737 Max 8 aircraft but could not pull it out of a flight-system-induced dive, a preliminary report into the crash concluded Thursday. ...

While she never mentioned MCAS by name during a news conference despite repeated questions from journalists, Moges’s comments suggested that the system was activated during the flight and that the pilots were not able to use Boeing’s recommended methods to disable it. ...

Ethiopian Airlines said immediately after the news conference that the report absolves the pilots, who “followed the Boeing recommended and FAA-approved emergency procedures.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/af ... 73e766b62c
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Re: 737 max

Post by Daniel Cooper » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:34 am

If true, Boeing's in a world of hurt. But I don't trust the media to get the facts right.
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Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:43 am

Ray,

Although just in preliminary reporting phase, it looks like you might need to apologize for the comment you made 2 days earlier where you implied that these were inexperienced pilots who have no hands and feet;
Those imperatives have impeded pilots' abilities to recognize and control the primary flight characteristics of their own aircraft. This is particularly acute in the case of pilots who have no hands and feet experience whatsoever, such as the 200-hour F/O charged with the responsibility of passenger safety in the most recent accident.
For accuracy - According to Ethiopian Airlines records, the captain has the following flight experience:
 Total hours: 8122
 Total hours in B737: 1417
 Total hours in B737-8 MAX: 103
 Flight time in previous 90 days: 266 hours and 9 minutes
 Flight time in previous 7 days: 17 hours and 43 minutes
 Flight time in previous 72 hours: no flight time
The pilot in command was 29 years old. According to Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority (ECAA) records, the Captain’s most recent simulator training experience was September 30, 2018, and his most recent simulator proficiency check was October 1, 2018. The captain completed the Ethiopian Aviation Academy on July 23, 2010. A review of the captains training records indicated that he received his 737-800 First Officer type rating on January 31, 2011 and completed his PIC type rating for the 737-800 October 26, 2017. 737MAX differences training on 3 July, 2018.
According to Ethiopian Airlines records, the First-Officer has the following flight experience:
 Total hours: 361
 Total hours in B737: 207
 Total hours in B737-8 MAX: 56
 Flight time in previous 90 days: 207 hours and 26 minutes
 Flight time in previous 7 days: 10 hours and 57 minutes
 Flight time in previous 72 hours: 5 hours and 25 minutes
The first-officer was 25 years old. According to ECAA records, the first-officer’s most recent simulator event was listed as a proficiency check and occurred on December 3, 2018. His line training/check (conducted in the B737 aircraft) was completed on January 31, 2019.
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Last edited by yycflyguy on Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 737 max

Post by '97 Tercel » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:45 am

I should follow this too sometimes but it's better to be thought a fool than type something on your keyboard and remove all doubt :)
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:42 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:43 am
Ray,

Although just in preliminary reporting phase, it looks like you might need to apologize for the comment you made 2 days earlier where you implied that these were inexperienced pilots who have no hands and feet;


According to Ethiopian Airlines records, the First-Officer has the following flight experience:
 Total hours: 361
 Total hours in B737: 207
 Total hours in B737-8 MAX: 56
 Flight time in previous 90 days: 207 hours and 26 minutes
 Flight time in previous 7 days: 10 hours and 57 minutes
 Flight time in previous 72 hours: 5 hours and 25 minutes
The first-officer was 25 years old. According to ECAA records, the first-officer’s most recent simulator event was listed as a proficiency check and occurred on December 3, 2018. His line training/check (conducted in the B737 aircraft) was completed on January 31, 2019.
I was not referring to the two pilots. I was referring to what I understood to be the 200 hours total time of the F/O. 361 hours is not much different, in the circumstances.

Subtract the 207 hours B737 time from the 361 hours total time and it would appear that he commenced flying the 737 with only 154 hours. Less than 200. That is what Sully Sullenberger refers to as an airplane crew of "1 Captain, 1 Apprentice."

My point was simply that that level of experience won't even get one a commercial licence in Canada, let alone put one in the seat of a $150 million aircraft with 149 people on board.

Low time and lack of experience, despite the PPC certification in a simulator, is a very serious issue that ought to be considered in the design of aircraft systems, especially ones that, on failure, require consummate pilots skills on an extremely time-limited basis.
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Re: 737 max

Post by FL320 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:19 pm

For accuracy - According to Ethiopian Airlines records, the captain has the following flight experience:
 Total hours: 8122
The pilot in command was 29 years old. According to Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority (ECAA) records, the Captain’s most recent simulator training experience was September 30, 2018, and his most recent simulator proficiency check was October 1, 2018. The captain completed the Ethiopian Aviation Academy on July 23, 2010.
🤔 Their FTL is 1000h/year

I will never complain again that I am flying too much at 500hrs/year! :?
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Last edited by FL320 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:27 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:42 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:43 am
Ray,

Although just in preliminary reporting phase, it looks like you might need to apologize for the comment you made 2 days earlier where you implied that these were inexperienced pilots who have no hands and feet;


According to Ethiopian Airlines records, the First-Officer has the following flight experience:
 Total hours: 361
 Total hours in B737: 207
 Total hours in B737-8 MAX: 56
 Flight time in previous 90 days: 207 hours and 26 minutes
 Flight time in previous 7 days: 10 hours and 57 minutes
 Flight time in previous 72 hours: 5 hours and 25 minutes
The first-officer was 25 years old. According to ECAA records, the first-officer’s most recent simulator event was listed as a proficiency check and occurred on December 3, 2018. His line training/check (conducted in the B737 aircraft) was completed on January 31, 2019.
I was not referring to the two pilots. I was referring to what I understood to be the 200 hours total time of the F/O. 361 hours is not much different, in the circumstances.

Subtract the 207 hours B737 time from the 361 hours total time and it would appear that he commenced flying the 737 with only 154 hours. Less than 200. That is what Sully Sullenberger refers to as an airplane crew of "1 Captain, 1 Apprentice."

My point was simply that that level of experience won't even get one a commercial licence in Canada, let alone put one in the seat of a $150 million aircraft with 149 people on board.

Low time and lack of experience, despite the PPC certification in a simulator, is a very serious issue that ought to be considered in the design of aircraft systems, especially ones that, on failure, require consummate pilots skills on an extremely time-limited basis.
It appears that it was the "apprentice" who first identified the situation and called to flip the Stab Cutoff Switches. It was also the Captain who was flying.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:55 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:27 pm
It appears that it was the "apprentice" who first identified the situation and called to flip the Stab Cutoff Switches. It was also the Captain who was flying.
In that case, perhaps I was a little hasty in my assumption regarding this particular First Officer and this particular accident. Nevertheless, the issue is a generic one, namely that systems should be designed to account for the lowest common denominator, including flight crews with remarkably low flight time.

In this case, apparently, one of the system design imperatives was to prohibit any crew training, whatsoever.

There was a report on CNN this afternoon that Boeing had made a guarantee of a seven figure rebate to airlines if they were not able to meet the requirement of no additional crew training for this model of aircraft. Stunning, given the inherent weaknesses in the design and the fact that Boeing made the AOA comparator function an add-on option available only for a price.
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Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:11 am

Raymond Hall wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:55 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:27 pm
It appears that it was the "apprentice" who first identified the situation and called to flip the Stab Cutoff Switches. It was also the Captain who was flying.
In that case, perhaps I was a little hasty in my assumption regarding this particular First Officer and this particular accident. Nevertheless, the issue is a generic one, namely that systems should be designed to account for the lowest common denominator, including flight crews with remarkably low flight time.

In this case, apparently, one of the system design imperatives was to prohibit any crew training, whatsoever.

There was a report on CNN this afternoon that Boeing had made a guarantee of a seven figure rebate to airlines if they were not able to meet the requirement of no additional crew training for this model of aircraft. Stunning, given the inherent weaknesses in the design and the fact that Boeing made the AOA comparator function an add-on option available only for a price.
Boeing and the FAA are exposed to future litigation. More because of the certification process and the omission of the MCAS from original AOMs. The MAX sales were heavily reliant on selling the fact that it was still a common type, hence the lower training/maintenance costs. Boeing and the FAA will have to answer for that. I was amazed that the Boeing CEO issued an apology. In the most litigious country in the world an apology is really going to cost them.

The AoA never had, and still does not have a comparator function. That's why these planes crashed. One bad AoA sensor led the plane to believe it was stalling and the MCAS kicked in. The patch was going to address that. The "add-on" was the AoA indicator on the PFDs. At AC we didn't have these indicators until after the Lion Air crash. Then they magically appeared with no training and no guidance. It's also worth pointing out that because AC doesn't have any older B737s it was a full training course for all the MAX pilots so there were no cost savings using only a differences course at AC.
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