737 max

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corethatthermal
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Re: 737 max

Post by corethatthermal » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:08 pm

If the pilots decided to fly the plane ( remember there are 2 of them in the cockpit, allowing twice as much information before overload ) after they operated the cut-out switches, they would most likely have reduced power to cruise power, gradually climbed to a better altitude and trimmed manually at the same time OR if the trim was still not working, then unloaded the stab at above 10,000 ft above ground! 2 glaring errors, 1) when they could not retrim by hand ( due to the stab in high A/C nose down position , along with considerable up elevator force loading the stab further,) they decided to turn the switches on again, KNOWING that it would lead to a stronger nose down tendency! and 2) They left autothrottle power at 94% and allowed the speed to increase, thereby needing a stronger pull on the controls.
If throttle was reduced, so that up elevator was manageable in the climb to 10 thousand AGL, THEN they could unload the stab and get the trim back to normal.

Hindsight is indeed 20/20 from an armchair quarterback.

One solution to MANY accidents is this: MUCH MUCH more training ( recurrent/simulator and hands on) and the training MUST be done until the pilot(s) are shown to be proficient in ALL common and many uncommon scenarios!
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telex
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Re: 737 max

Post by telex » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:17 pm

corethatthermal wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:08 pm
If the pilots decided to fly the plane ( remember there are 2 of them in the cockpit, allowing twice as much information before overload ) after they operated the cut-out switches, they would most likely have reduced power to cruise power, gradually climbed to a better altitude and trimmed manually at the same time OR if the trim was still not working, then unloaded the stab at above 10,000 ft above ground! 2 glaring errors, 1) when they could not retrim by hand ( due to the stab in high A/C nose down position , along with considerable up elevator force loading the stab further,) they decided to turn the switches on again, KNOWING that it would lead to a stronger nose down tendency! and 2) They left autothrottle power at 94% and allowed the speed to increase, thereby needing a stronger pull on the controls.
If throttle was reduced, so that up elevator was manageable in the climb to 10 thousand AGL, THEN they could unload the stab and get the trim back to normal.

Hindsight is indeed 20/20 from an armchair quarterback.

One solution to MANY accidents is this: MUCH MUCH more training ( recurrent/simulator and hands on) and the training MUST be done until the pilot(s) are shown to be proficient in ALL common and many uncommon scenarios!
Certainly two pilots up front. One of them with 350 hours.

Keep in mind Addis is over 7700'. Climb to 18 000' then get it sorted?
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rudder
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Re: 737 max

Post by rudder » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:45 am

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tallyho
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Re: 737 max

Post by tallyho » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:24 am

Pheeewy, it seems to me that regardless of piloting brilliance that this accident was going to happen to some crew somewhere eventually. They may or may not have been poorly trained, they may have been at the end of a brutal 5 day pairing, they may have been having an off day. I think both accidents were probably survivable if the exact right steps were taken, much like it was proven Sully could have made it back to an airport if he had turned immediately to the correct one.

Between the AOA being nailed by a bird, stall horn going off and staying on (which is usually a cue to add power), having unreliable airspeed (which is usually a cue to reduce power on take off), being in mountainous terrain (usually a cue to add power), the 'mysterious' MCAS repeatedly kicking in, being unable to electrically or manually trim the aircraft, a lack of experience in the cockpit, a lack of MAX simulators to train crews properly, and a couple days in a SIM every 6 months (a la CANADA) ... Its a fecking miracle its only happened twice!

The COLGAN crash caused many changes in the US, and seemingly to great effect. It seems to me this whole MAX MCAS thing may even cause a bigger ripple. More training (classroom and SIM) for everyone please.......................
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L39Guy
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Re: 737 max

Post by L39Guy » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:52 am

The Seeking Alpha analysis was excellent however the author was incorrect in stating the unreliable airspeed is not a memory (recall) item. It is which makes the pilot error case even worse.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Redwine » Sat May 18, 2019 8:08 am

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...Seems they are going to remove the axe and the control column from the cockpits for security reasons.

snowcone
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Re: 737 max

Post by snowcone » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:19 am

Anyone know how many MAX guys took the offer and went back to their old plane.....vs having the summer off with pay?
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altiplano
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Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:41 am

snowcone wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:19 am
Anyone know how many MAX guys took the offer and went back to their old plane.....vs having the summer off with pay?
Only a handful were eligible, but I heard it was about 30 guys.

I think it's crazy. We aren't time building here... summer off? most of my pay? perfect... take your time Boeing, gotta get it right.
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Re: 737 max

Post by Old fella » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:03 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:41 am
snowcone wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:19 am


Only a handful were eligible, but I heard it was about 30 guys.

I think it's crazy. We aren't time building here... summer off? most of my pay? perfect... take your time Boeing, gotta get it right.
Indeed. Outside of school teachers(not all mind you), probably one and only time in your career to get the summer off with pay. I wonder is there spousal commentary towards the male ‘37 drivers.... “ Those projects you talked about doing around the property......”
:wink:
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Brize
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Re: 737 max

Post by Brize » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 pm

This is a tight margin business. I'm quite surprised the airline can afford this whole situation dragging on and on.

My suspicion is that the writing is already on the wall for this type to leave AC sooner rather than later.
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Warden
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Re: 737 max

Post by Warden » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:27 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:41 am
snowcone wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:19 am
Anyone know how many MAX guys took the offer and went back to their old plane.....vs having the summer off with pay?
Only a handful were eligible, but I heard it was about 30 guys.

I think it's crazy. We aren't time building here... summer off? most of my pay? perfect... take your time Boeing, gotta get it right.
If you are off of status pay, it's probably a great time.

I feel bad for anyone who went to AC in the last year or two and is sitting on year 1/2 pay with no per diems. Especially those who left higher paying jobs with families and bills to pay. I know two who are having a bit of a rough go right now because they are taking home so little.

I would put money on the fact the bid was delayed because the company is worried too many pilots would bid off of it because they can't afford to live.
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altiplano
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Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:44 pm

I don't know... It's not big bucks, and it certainly isn't ideal... but if you're going bankrupt on $60K/year to stay at home, because you're not getting a few hundred bucks in per diems, maybe you need to re-evaluate and reign in your spending...

or maybe with all the free time the Beer and BBQ budget is getting blown...
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Victory
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Re: 737 max

Post by Victory » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:28 pm

Careful about bragging too much. We're probably all going to have to pay for your vacation.
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navajo_jay
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Re: 737 max

Post by navajo_jay » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:43 pm

Try being on GDIP, I’d take 737 pay and stay home anytime. I’ve heard of a 737guy that went on GDIP the day the 737 was grounded. I don’t how this turns out.
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John1234
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Re: 737 max

Post by John1234 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:13 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:44 pm
I don't know... It's not big bucks, and it certainly isn't ideal... but if you're going bankrupt on $60K/year to stay at home, because you're not getting a few hundred bucks in per diems, maybe you need to re-evaluate and reign in your spending...

or maybe with all the free time the Beer and BBQ budget is getting blown...
Few hundred bucks? On avg you can expect between $1000-$1300 a month in per diems. If you plan for pairings and know the right happy hour places you can end up keeping allot of that over a month which is supplemental income. What is summer without a beer and bbq budget especially this time of year. This is a career that allows a good lifestyle. Take that away and what’s there to look forward to.

We are professionals who have spent years getting to career gig. Why the hell should we have to sacrifice more. While most pilots around the world are now being paid like professionals. 60k/yr isn’t sh*t in 2019
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altiplano
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Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:59 pm

I think you misunderstand, it was a half joking comment and I'm certainly not advocating against Beer and BBQ budget.

Rather I'm pointing out that when you're off every day you've got more time for Beer and BBQ, thus you may have been under budgeting your requirements... plus traveling, spring skiing, and golf, and going to the game, and the cottage... I can imagine blowing a little more cash when you're not working...

That was my point...

60K isn't ideal, but it shouldn't be sending anyone to the poor house either. 75 hours is the pay guarantee and they're getting it... you can't count on $1200/mo per diems... I don't think I've ever got $1200 month per diems domestic/transborder/Europe flying... I figure only guys overseas doing lots of long DXBs or whatever might be doing that... maybe there's a way on the 737, can't imagine it though.

I thought the MOA was a give away, but it is what it is... if you don't like it you should go to the meeting on Tuesday and speak up.
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Re: 737 max

Post by John1234 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:14 pm

:!:
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:59 pm
I think you misunderstand, it was a half joking comment and I'm certainly not advocating against Beer and BBQ budget.

Rather I'm pointing out that when you're off every day you've got more time for Beer and BBQ, thus you may have been under budgeting your requirements... plus traveling, spring skiing, and golf, and going to the game, and the cottage... I can imagine blowing a little more cash when you're not working...

That was my point...

60K isn't ideal, but it shouldn't be sending anyone to the poor house either. 75 hours is the pay guarantee and they're getting it... you can't count on $1200/mo per diems... I don't think I've ever got $1200 month per diems domestic/transborder/Europe flying... I figure only guys overseas doing lots of long DXBs or whatever might be doing that... maybe there's a way on the 737, can't imagine it though.

I thought the MOA was a give away, but it is what it is... if you don't like it you should go to the meeting on Tuesday and speak up.

Still the take home on 75hrs. Is somewhere around $1500 $1600 every two weeks. $2100 and $1000... Those with families mortgages, student loans they’ve never paid off because they’ve made under 60k a yr over potential 10 year career to this point. Pretty said to say the least.
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altiplano
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Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:38 pm

Wages are too low... I hear you... I know no one likes to hear it... did it, and it wasn't ideal but manageable - my point was only if you are going broke at what is basically equivalent to the median Canadian family income level you're not managing it right.
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laserstrike
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Re: 737 max

Post by laserstrike » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:00 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:59 pm
I think you misunderstand, it was a half joking comment and I'm certainly not advocating against Beer and BBQ budget.

Rather I'm pointing out that when you're off every day you've got more time for Beer and BBQ, thus you may have been under budgeting your requirements... plus traveling, spring skiing, and golf, and going to the game, and the cottage... I can imagine blowing a little more cash when you're not working...

That was my point...

60K isn't ideal, but it shouldn't be sending anyone to the poor house either. 75 hours is the pay guarantee and they're getting it... you can't count on $1200/mo per diems... I don't think I've ever got $1200 month per diems domestic/transborder/Europe flying... I figure only guys overseas doing lots of long DXBs or whatever might be doing that... maybe there's a way on the 737, can't imagine it though.

I thought the MOA was a give away, but it is what it is... if you don't like it you should go to the meeting on Tuesday and speak up.
See how easy it is if you have two kids and a mortgage. And you're likely living in one of the big three.

Food costs for 3-4 people (including more for you), gas, electricity, mortgage ($1500-2500 depending?) And that starts adding up really fast. What's take home after tax year one, like $3300 give or take? Add car insurance I won't even add a car payment since we can assume it's paid off.

It's probably been a really really long time since you've lived on $60k pretax and it certainly doesn't go as far as it used to.

Now if you're single, rent, don't have student loans left to pay off your could keep your expenses pretty low. If it happened to me, I'd be just fine. But we're not talking about people like me, we're talking about people who make sacrifices to go to AC for $60k in the promise of "fast upgrades and long term earning potential" who very likely have higher expenses than a single no kids 23 year old.
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Re: 737 max

Post by laserstrike » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:04 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:38 pm
Wages are too low... I hear you... I know no one likes to hear it... did it, and it wasn't ideal but manageable - my point was only if you are going broke at what is basically equivalent to the median Canadian family income level you're not managing it right.
You know I agree with a lot of your posts on here, but the more I read in this thread the more I realize how disconnected you are to the new hire life. And the Jr pilot jobs in this industry. Sounds like people in your position being super disconnected are the problem and the reason wages are so low. Just because "you had to do it" doesn't mean everyone else should. We should always be striving for improvements. I'm still confused how I had to take a pay cut coming to AC from Jazz... I'd say an FO flying 250+ people around at the flag carrier should be making more than a 74 seat Captain at a regional.
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Re: 737 max

Post by laserstrike » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:06 pm

John1234 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:14 pm
:!:
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:59 pm
I think you misunderstand, it was a half joking comment and I'm certainly not advocating against Beer and BBQ budget.

Rather I'm pointing out that when you're off every day you've got more time for Beer and BBQ, thus you may have been under budgeting your requirements... plus traveling, spring skiing, and golf, and going to the game, and the cottage... I can imagine blowing a little more cash when you're not working...

That was my point...

60K isn't ideal, but it shouldn't be sending anyone to the poor house either. 75 hours is the pay guarantee and they're getting it... you can't count on $1200/mo per diems... I don't think I've ever got $1200 month per diems domestic/transborder/Europe flying... I figure only guys overseas doing lots of long DXBs or whatever might be doing that... maybe there's a way on the 737, can't imagine it though.

I thought the MOA was a give away, but it is what it is... if you don't like it you should go to the meeting on Tuesday and speak up.

Still the take home on 75hrs. Is somewhere around $1500 $1600 every two weeks. $2100 and $1000... Those with families mortgages, student loans they’ve never paid off because they’ve made under 60k a yr over potential 10 year career to this point. Pretty said to say the least.
You know it. I still owe money on my loans nearly a decade in because living costs keep rising and I keep having to take two steps forward, one step back to get ahead.

But everyone keeps telling me "oh but think of the long term earning potential! In only 4 years you'll be making over $100k!" Well I already did make close to that... Twice. But had to walk away from it to go to Jazz and then AC.
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Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:13 pm

laserstrike wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:04 pm
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:38 pm
Wages are too low... I hear you... I know no one likes to hear it... did it, and it wasn't ideal but manageable - my point was only if you are going broke at what is basically equivalent to the median Canadian family income level you're not managing it right.
You know I agree with a lot of your posts on here, but the more I read in this thread the more I realize how disconnected you are to the new hire life. And the Jr pilot jobs in this industry. Sounds like people in your position being super disconnected are the problem and the reason wages are so low. Just because "you had to do it" doesn't mean everyone else should. We should always be striving for improvements. I'm still confused how I had to take a pay cut coming to AC from Jazz... I'd say an FO flying 250+ people around at the flag carrier should be making more than a 74 seat Captain at a regional.
Don't put words in my mouth, I never said just because I did everyone should.

Disconnected? Why? Because I managed my time on what was supposed to be 2 year flat pay and turned into 4 year flat pay? No 75 guarantees, no 77.5 guarantees.

I was flat pay in FOS, I was still flat pay in 2014. I voted and advocated "No". And you think you can say I'm the fucking problem?

Don't point fingers. Own your shit.

Are you going to be there next week?
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Last edited by altiplano on Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 737 max

Post by '97 Tercel » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:22 pm

Have a Snickers bar...
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Brize
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Re: 737 max

Post by Brize » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:53 pm

altiplano & laserstrike.. chill out..maybe have a cry.. everything will work out.
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laserstrike
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Re: 737 max

Post by laserstrike » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:03 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:13 pm
laserstrike wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:04 pm
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:38 pm
Wages are too low... I hear you... I know no one likes to hear it... did it, and it wasn't ideal but manageable - my point was only if you are going broke at what is basically equivalent to the median Canadian family income level you're not managing it right.
You know I agree with a lot of your posts on here, but the more I read in this thread the more I realize how disconnected you are to the new hire life. And the Jr pilot jobs in this industry. Sounds like people in your position being super disconnected are the problem and the reason wages are so low. Just because "you had to do it" doesn't mean everyone else should. We should always be striving for improvements. I'm still confused how I had to take a pay cut coming to AC from Jazz... I'd say an FO flying 250+ people around at the flag carrier should be making more than a 74 seat Captain at a regional.
Don't put words in my mouth, I never said just because I did everyone should.

Disconnected? Why? Because I managed my time on what was supposed to be 2 year flat pay and turned into 4 year flat pay? No 75 guarantees, no 77.5 guarantees.

I was flat pay in FOS, I was still flat pay in 2014. I voted and advocated "No". And you think you can say I'm the fucking problem?

Don't point fingers. Own your shit.

Are you going to be there next week?
Sorry for some reason I thought you said something along the lines of "well I did it." I might have gotten my threads crossed.

I'm glad you voted no.
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