737 max

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Post Reply
Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:14 pm

I would like to confirm some of the "facts" regarding the MAX aircraft systems, the ADs, and the type of training that pilots received, preferably by someone who is current on the aircraft. Would anyone be willing to send me a PM so that I could follow up confidentially, perhaps with a telephone call? In strict confidence.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Hugh Jasshole
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:21 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Hugh Jasshole » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:52 pm

Did anyone read the report on the Lion Air crash? It states that the same aircraft had issues with sensors, most likely the AOA gauge, in the days prior to the fateful flight. Prior crews turned the trim switch off and had a non-eventful flight. My question is, why was this plane allowed to fly with a faulty AOA gauge? I have not looked at the MEL list yet, but I'm pretty sure you cannot MEL something that important? This sounds like a maintenance issue, not a Boeing issue.
---------- ADS -----------
  

corethatthermal
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by corethatthermal » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:19 pm

It certainly looks like a Boeing problem, maybe also a maintenance problem, a pilot problem and a training problem maybe even throw in an FAA problem as well for good measure!!
---------- ADS -----------
  

lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: 737 max

Post by lownslow » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:36 am

Hugh Jasshole wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:52 pm
why was this plane allowed to fly with a faulty AOA gauge?
“Lubricated and returned to service.” Repeat as required.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Guilden
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:12 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Guilden » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:46 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:06 pm
Guilden wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:54 am
Hey Boeing, Airspeed Unreliable QRC:

1. Autopilot (if engaged)...Disengage
2. Autothrottle (if engaged)..Disengage
3. STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches...CUTOUT

Etc Etc


PROBLEM SOLVED.
That's not the drill for Airspeed Unreliable at AC. That is close to the Runaway Stab Trim Drill except you left out attempting to reverse the trim electrically first then the CUTOUT switches, then grabbing the trim wheel and manually reversing the trim.

The MCAS system is only active with flaps up in manual flight (No AP).
Hey yycflyguy, yes I'm aware of the QRC as I fly the B737.. I'm just saying they should maybe think of adding that into the Airspeed Unreliable QRC.. I've also heard recent rumblings of a group of pilots from numerous companies taken to a max simulator with not a high success rate of recovering from the same scenario as the Lion Air crash.. pretty hard to recover from a dive at low altitude like these guys were faced with.
---------- ADS -----------
  

yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2700
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:21 am

Guilden wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:46 am
yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:06 pm
Guilden wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:54 am
Hey Boeing, Airspeed Unreliable QRC:

1. Autopilot (if engaged)...Disengage
2. Autothrottle (if engaged)..Disengage
3. STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches...CUTOUT

Etc Etc


PROBLEM SOLVED.
That's not the drill for Airspeed Unreliable at AC. That is close to the Runaway Stab Trim Drill except you left out attempting to reverse the trim electrically first then the CUTOUT switches, then grabbing the trim wheel and manually reversing the trim.

The MCAS system is only active with flaps up in manual flight (No AP).
Hey yycflyguy, yes I'm aware of the QRC as I fly the B737.. I'm just saying they should maybe think of adding that into the Airspeed Unreliable QRC.. I've also heard recent rumblings of a group of pilots from numerous companies taken to a max simulator with not a high success rate of recovering from the same scenario as the Lion Air crash.. pretty hard to recover from a dive at low altitude like these guys were faced with.
Agreed.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:14 pm
I would like to confirm some of the "facts" regarding the MAX aircraft systems, the ADs, and the type of training that pilots received, preferably by someone who is current on the aircraft. Would anyone be willing to send me a PM so that I could follow up confidentially, perhaps with a telephone call? In strict confidence.
There isn't anyone over 60 or looking to go to 67 on the Max as far as I know.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Fanblade
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Fanblade » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:57 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:14 pm
I would like to confirm some of the "facts" regarding the MAX aircraft systems, the ADs, and the type of training that pilots received, preferably by someone who is current on the aircraft. Would anyone be willing to send me a PM so that I could follow up confidentially, perhaps with a telephone call? In strict confidence.
Ambulance chasing?

Whoop whoop, don’t contact lawyer.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
'97 Tercel
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by '97 Tercel » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:35 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:28 pm
Raymond Hall wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:14 pm
I would like to confirm some of the "facts" regarding the MAX aircraft systems, the ADs, and the type of training that pilots received, preferably by someone who is current on the aircraft. Would anyone be willing to send me a PM so that I could follow up confidentially, perhaps with a telephone call? In strict confidence.
There isn't anyone over 60 or looking to go to 67 on the Max as far as I know.

:lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:27 pm

FYI, I have been invited to speak on national radio tomorrow on this subject. It would be helpful if I could confirm what I understand to be a number of "facts" that affect all of us, especially facts that help inform the traveling public about the critical safety issues and how those issues are being addressed. It might also be helpful if the public was provided some unsourced insight as to how this issue is being viewed by the very pilots who are most directly affected by it.

One thing for sure: neither Transport Canada nor any of the airlines allow any of their employees or representatives to speak publicly on this issue. In consequence the public is not well informed, as a result.

And quite frankly, I have not been overly impressed by many of the so-called aviation experts who have appeared in the media to discuss the core safety issues, including those who have appeared on CNN.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5785
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: 737 max

Post by ahramin » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:59 pm

Well said Mr Hall.
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: 737 max

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:03 pm

Cause there is no real information out there. Still waiting on FDR data, so even the actual experts are going off speculation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2700
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:11 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:27 pm
FYI, I have been invited to speak on national radio tomorrow on this subject. It would be helpful if I could confirm what I understand to be a number of "facts" that affect all of us, especially facts that help inform the traveling public about the critical safety issues and how those issues are being addressed. It might also be helpful if the public was provided some unsourced insight as to how this issue is being viewed by the very pilots who are most directly affected by it.

One thing for sure: neither Transport Canada nor any of the airlines allow any of their employees or representatives to speak publicly on this issue. In consequence the public is not well informed, as a result.

And quite frankly, I have not been overly impressed by many of the so-called aviation experts who have appeared in the media to discuss the core safety issues, including those who have appeared on CNN.
So, you are going to give an interview on an airplane that you have never flown, are unfamiliar with the technology/systems, and have been retired from active flying, for what 7 years, yet you feel it important to speak to actual pilots on the plane so you don't sound like a dick during your interview to enlighten the public?

I always wondered how pilots became "aviation experts". You need to send Gábor Lukács your resume. Unbelievable. It's been awhile since you have pissed me off.... but you did it again.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:14 pm

You should call Jock Williams to fill you in. He knew all about everything on this...

What a joke or media is... always looking for content... so interview the lawyer who doesn't have any relevant information.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Old fella » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:07 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:14 pm
You should call Jock Williams to fill you in. He knew all about everything on this...

What a joke or media is... always looking for content... so interview the lawyer who doesn't have any relevant information.
Well there is a guy(JW) who wasn't shy about seeking out the nearest microphone pontificating on all subjects aviation, there isn't a subject in this business that he doesn't know about, at least that is what he lets on to everybody. :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
  

LETUN
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:21 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by LETUN » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm

Raymond, why on earth would you go on national TV to talk about something you have no clue about?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:30 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:11 pm
So, you are going to give an interview on an airplane that you have never flown, are unfamiliar with the technology/systems, and have been retired from active flying, for what 7 years, yet you feel it important to speak to actual pilots on the plane so you don't sound like a dick during your interview to enlighten the public? ... Unbelievable. It's been awhile since you have pissed me off.... but you did it again.
You should get your facts straight. It has been 10 years since I hung up my headset, not 7. And if I need any lessons on sounding like a dick, I know where to get them.

Come out from behind your veil of anonymity here and let's have a real debate about aviation facts and issues.

Want to take me on? Have at it, without your crutch. Let's see what you've accomplished in your life and we can compare notes. Let us know of your education and experience, other than in putting people down.

The interview tomorrow will be about my 150th on national radio and television dealing with current aviation issues, including about 75 while I was MEC Chair. Either I must be pretty good at bluffing, or someone must value my opinions and perspectives.

By way of example, this past Thursday I was in the Federal Court of Appeal in Ottawa (the second-highest court in the land) appearing before three very senior judges, all of whom I had appeared before before in separate cases, some cases dealing with aviation law and some dealing with broadcasting and communication law. Last month I was engaged by a large national law firm as a key expert witness in aviation for an upcoming trial lasting several weeks. And those cases only scratch the surface of my present work before the Commissions, Tribunals and courts in several provinces.

In case you didn't know, I don't determine my own dignity and self-worth from this venue or from those who don't have the courage to identify themselves and hold themselves accountable for discrediting those who do stand up for themselves.

So slander away. You discredit only yourself.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Raymond Hall on Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:04 pm

Raymond Hall wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:30 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:11 pm
So, you are going to give an interview on an airplane that you have never flown, are unfamiliar with the technology/systems, and have been retired from active flying, for what 7 years, yet you feel it important to speak to actual pilots on the plane so you don't sound like a dick during your interview to enlighten the public? ... Unbelievable. It's been awhile since you have pissed me off.... but you did it again.
You should get your facts straight. It has been 10 years since I hung up my headset, not 7. And if I need any lessons on sounding like a dick, I know where to get them.

Come out from behind your veil of anonymity here and let's have a real debate about aviation facts and issues.

Want to take me on? Have at it, without your crutch. Let's see what you've accomplished in your life and we can compare notes. Let us know of your education and experience, other than in putting other people down.

The interview tomorrow will be about my 150th on national radio and television dealing with current aviation issues, including about 75 while I was MEC Chair. Either I must be pretty good at bluffing, or someone must value my opinions and perspectives.

By way of example, this past Thursday I was in the Federal Court of Appeal in Ottawa (the second-highest court in the land) appearing before three very senior judges, all of whom I had appeared before before in separate cases, some cases dealing with aviation law and some dealing with broadcasting and communication law. Last month I was engaged by a large national law firm as a key expert witness in aviation for an upcoming trial lasting several weeks. And those cases only scratch the surface of my present work before the Commissions, Tribunals and courts in several provinces.

In case you didn't know, I don't determine my own dignity and self-worth from this venue or from those who don't have the courage to identify themselves and hold them accountable for discrediting those who do stand up for themselves.

So slander away. You discredit only yourself.
Image

LOL... someone's a big deal!!!

But what do you know about this?

Not much if you need to solicit us anonymous cowards to fill you in, I suppose...
---------- ADS -----------
  

BMLtech
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:37 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by BMLtech » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:49 am

In regard to training on the Max, I was told by someone who would know, that the AC pilots did the full type course on the MAX, that included information on the MCAS, whereas the media is reporting other NG operators pilots had a very condensed conversion course that did not include MCAS. Can anybody confirm this information?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Victory » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:03 am

Raymond Hall wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:30 pm
And if I need any lessons on sounding like a dick, I know where to get them.
Heheh good one.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:56 am

BMLtech wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:49 am
In regard to training on the Max, I was told by someone who would know, that the AC pilots did the full type course on the MAX, that included information on the MCAS, whereas the media is reporting other NG operators pilots had a very condensed conversion course that did not include MCAS. Can anybody confirm this information?
One of the main reasons Boeing has received over 4,600 orders in addition to the 400 aircraft already delivered is reduced training cost as a result of the aircraft model being a derivative of several previous iterations, going back to 1968. American Airlines pilots received less than 56 minutes of iPad training as well as some "White Papers." Southwest pilots received less than three hours of iPad video training. Neither was informed of the MCAS, and to date Boeing has not updated its operation manual to include a description of its operation or nuances. Not sure about United's pilot training on the 900's, but probable not much different from AA or SW.

No simulator training, primarily because the simulator programming could not be commenced until the production model was finalized. To date, there is only one simulator in the U.S. dedicated strictly to the 8 Max, although there are many, many orders for same. And both Boeing and the FAA are on record as stating that no special training was or is required as a result of the MCAS ("Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System). In fact, even this past week Boeing stated that its existing emergency procedures are adequate to deal with any faults resulting from the MCAS.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Raymond Hall on Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 641
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by TheStig » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:32 am

If you're going to be speaking as an expert witness about an aircraft you have no expertise on you should probably know the name of said aircraft.

Boeing 737 MAX 8, not 800 Max.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by TheStig on Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:05 pm

TheStig wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:32 am
If you're going to be speaking as an expert witness about an aircraft you have no expertise on you should probably know the name of said aircraft.
Boeing 737 MAX 8, not 800 Max.
Thanks. I agree. I asked for help, but got shot down instead.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Raymond Hall
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:19 pm

LETUN wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm
Raymond, why on earth would you go on national TV to talk about something you have no clue about?
Radio, not TV. Listen to the interview. It took place earlier today, and is available on-line.

Valid question. But no clue? The host extended the interview from a planned 20 minutes to his whole first hour, displacing some of his other planned guests dealing with other significant issues.

As I said above, the public wants accurate, timely information but generally cannot get it because both the government and the airlines preclude their employees from talking about the subject.

So here is someone with over 50 years of experience in the aviation industry (my first job out of high school was working as an assistant Air Traffic Controller in YVR tower in 1967, on the south side of the airport). I acquired around 20,000 hours of airline flying experience, 7,000 of which were on Boeing 767 and 777 and 13,000 of which were on the DC-9, operating those aircraft into almost every major airport in North America, South America, Europe and Asia. I was directly involved in pilot training standards as MEC Chair. I have over 30 years of experience practicing law, litigating aviation issues in Canada, so consequently I know how to get the relevant facts to an issue. As a result of professional media training I learned how to critically discuss something that the general public is seriously concerned about without embarrassing myself.

With respect, I do have a few clues about the issues, even though I have not been checked out on the aircraft. The issue is not about qualifications on that aircraft. It is about aircraft systems design, aircraft certification and flight crew training. There are serious problems there, especially with the FAA outsourcing certification to the aircraft manufacturers.

Pilots got checked out on this airplane without being advised of the existence of the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), a system that was designed to be invoked based on input from only one of two angle of attack indicators, with no ability to reconcile conflicting information between those two instruments if one is sending faulty information. No mention was even made of this system in the Boeing Flight Operations Manual for the aircraft, nor were pilots ever advised that the only means available to disengage the MCAS was to trigger the elevator trim cutout switches.

Preliminary analysis of the Lion Air accident indicates that both pilots were pulling back on the control column with all of their strength, but were nevertheless unable to overcome the pitch down command from the MCAS. In the Ethiopian Air wreckage, the jackscrew was found in the full nose down position. And the First Officer had a total time of only 200 hours.

Please listen to the interview. Afterwords if you are of the same opinion, tell me then that I don't have a clue about the subject matter.

FYI, I can tell you that as a professional my preparation for these media interviews differs little from my preparation for going into court. I have to have a full grasp of the facts, issues and potential retorts, otherwise, no go. That requires dozens of hours of work and all sorts of investment, especially in research.

I reached out here only to confirm the alleged facts that I had been apprised of elsewhere. On reflection, I might as well have called my grandmother for advice.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Raymond Hall on Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:39 am, edited 10 times in total.

User avatar
Doug Moore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Doug Moore » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:32 pm

Just a general observation and comment: the tenor and tone of some posters on this forum has not changed much over the 8+ years that I have been here. A retired pilot asks for some assistance/information on a particular topic and what flows from that? Disapproval and disparagement, aspersion and condemnation, insult and invective, etc., etc.

We all can have a respectful discussion about an issue where there are clearly opposing points of view without taking things to a personal level. Getting personal doesn’t advance anyone’s position, and in the matter of facts, how and what is written reflects as much upon the writer, if not more so, than it does upon what is being written.

It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”